unlucky navy

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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warspite1
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Before WWII, no one knew for sure how air-power would work with ships. Carriers were developed of course, and specialized aviation squadrons and such, but it was all theory with no combat experience. So I have long thought that Italy's real failure was in the air, given their excellent access to land bases. I understand Italian aircraft designs were good, and I think WiF reflects that in the counters. But I think the Luftwaffe might have sunk more ships in the Med than the Regia Aeronautica, with less planes in theater. But I'm not sure and I have a lot to learn on the history of the air war in the Med. WiF certainly will lead you to an interest in that.

Churchill, on the other hand, probably looked at it more from the prism of Battleship #s and the balance of power therein, demonstrated so lamentably at Mers-el-Kebir in early July 1940....a sad part of the war that long-time WiF players can't quite grasp if they have played the game a lot before they ever learn about it.
Warspite1

a) The numbers are not even close iirc...the Regia Aeronautica could not compare with the Luftwaffe.

b) Not sure what you mean by that.
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by micheljq »

ORIGINAL: Orm

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.

Quite normal that an englishman consider a villain someone who threatened to invade England.
Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815
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warspite1
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: micheljq

ORIGINAL: Orm

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.

Quite normal that an englishman consider a villain someone who threatened to invade England.
Warspite1

Indeed so - as would anyone from any country when threatened by some one else [;)]
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by michaelbaldur »


that is really nice to hear from a english man ...

lets just remember that the English invaded countries all around the world .. there no continent in the world were the british have not massacred ...
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


that is really nice to hear from a english man ...

lets just remember that the English invaded countries all around the world .. there no continent in the world were the british have not massacred ...
Warspite1

Mmmmm I think I know where this is going....
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


that is really nice to hear from a english man ...

lets just remember that the English invaded countries all around the world .. there no continent in the world were the british have not massacred ...
Warspite1

Mmmmm I think I know where this is going....
Enough on this off-topic topic.[:-]
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by Extraneous »

[X(] sorry my bad [X(]
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warspite1
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

[X(] sorry my bad [X(]
Warspite1

Steve was not referring to you....you posted on topic.


michael and I have exchanged pm's and are [8D]
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by Extraneous »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

All I will say is when beta testing all aspects of the game should be explored even bad ones.


We really have insufficient information to judge his actions and why he chose them.

He mentioned Italian LAN but not how many of them, the results of the CW fleet Anti-aircraft fire, or the results of their attacks.

What were the search roll results?

What were the chosen combat types (11.5.8 Surface naval combat, 11.5.9 Naval air combat, 11.5.10 Submarine combat)?

Also the defense factor of the ships has to be considered.



Or he could just dislike the Royal Navy.


[8|] But this is what started the off topic part [8|]
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warspite1
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by warspite1 »

Fine - if you want to be the hero and take the blame for what was in effect, one, inoffensive, throw away line, then be my guest [;)]
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by Orm »

I'll take the blame because I started the real round. Without my post this would have died away...
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


REVENGE



Image
The German Moscow front looks as it has had a complete collapse.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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RE: unlucky navy

Post by MajorDude »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: Orm
Warspite1

Do you not see Napoleon as a villain Orm?
I am not quite sure what he did that makes him qualify as a villain. He was involved in numerous wars but alot of them was more of a reaction that most of Europe did not accept revolutionary France (or Napoleon). It might be that he is a villian but so far he seems, to me, as bad (or good) as his contemporary statesmen in other countries.

I do, however, confess that my knowledge on Napoleon and his actions are not as complete as I would like. So I would appreciate if someone could educate me to why Napoleon is considered a villain.

To a large degree, one's perception of Napoleon depends on one's country of birth.

For instance, I just started reading Churchill's 6 volume set on WWII and I am struck by his opinion that a major difficulty for Germany in the years between the wars was that they did not have a monarch to serve as a unifying element for the populace. Being an American, it would never have occurred to me that lack of a monarch could be a fatal omission in a government. Churchill was a wise and very knowledgeable politician during those years, so his opinion can not be dismissed out-of-hand. But clearly he had a strong bias on this subject. Astonishingly so to me.

EDIT: And to bring this post back on topic, Churchill personally and the Admiralty in general were very concerned about the Italian navy versus the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean prior to WWII. Churchill gives that concern (that the Italians might have been able to defeat the RN in the Med) as one of the reasons that the British did not intervene militarily with the Italian conquest of Ethiopia.


I totally agree with this.

Napoleon "inherited" a country that was still in the throes of an extremely bloody revolution, that had just failed to establish a constitutional monarchy (as in England), and now found itself guilty of regicide. It is this regicide, and the new notion that countries and governments do not require a monarchical dynasty and a "blooded" nobility to exist, that was rightly seen by the remaining monarchs and nobles in Europe as real threat to their very existence.

Napoleon grabbed the reins of this "esprit de nation", modernized the country's industry and military, and did what Napoleon became famous for - strike first, divide, and conquer. This expansion into Europe did bring "republican" ideals (freedom, equality) and laws (Code Napoleon) to areas that had mostly always been under the yoke of one monarchy or another. It is even a bit ironic that a lot of this "fraternization" between former German principalities would in part help to pave the way for a unified Germany.

Napoleon's destiny, however, was inevitable. The further he pushed, the further he felt he needed to push. This insatiable drive only led him away from the ideals of the Republic to create an empire, much in the way the Romans had done, and much in the way that another would-be world conqueror would again try to do more than a century later.

Like him or not, the revolution changed Europe. It pushed a young Corsican artilleryman, Napoleon, to the lofty heights and aspirations of Empire. It lost it all, yet, in the end, it had forever changed this world. It had finally allowed many to realize, perhaps for the first time ever, that they too could have rights, benefit from freedom and equality, and live in a country with a government of the people, elected by the people, not by bloodlines.

Villain, hero, revolutionary, troublemaker - they all apply.



Back to topic - the Italian Navy was most defintely a strong force to be reckoned with. They just never seemed to be able to wield it in such a way as to make full use of its power.
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by micheljq »

I am very tempted to reply to the last post about Napoleon but since it's out of the topic, no. It gives me back the taste to play "Empires in Arms" board game.
Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by brian brian »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Before WWII, no one knew for sure how air-power would work with ships. Carriers were developed of course, and specialized aviation squadrons and such, but it was all theory with no combat experience. So I have long thought that Italy's real failure was in the air, given their excellent access to land bases. I understand Italian aircraft designs were good, and I think WiF reflects that in the counters. But I think the Luftwaffe might have sunk more ships in the Med than the Regia Aeronautica, with less planes in theater. But I'm not sure and I have a lot to learn on the history of the air war in the Med. WiF certainly will lead you to an interest in that.

Churchill, on the other hand, probably looked at it more from the prism of Battleship #s and the balance of power therein, demonstrated so lamentably at Mers-el-Kebir in early July 1940....a sad part of the war that long-time WiF players can't quite grasp if they have played the game a lot before they ever learn about it.
Warspite1

a) The numbers are not even close iirc...the Regia Aeronautica could not compare with the Luftwaffe.

b) Not sure what you mean by that.

Mers-el-Kebir is arguably one of the saddest incidents of the war.

Through the 20/20 hindsight of history, adding several French heavy capital ships to the Axis inventory — when they hardly had the fuel to sail them and airpower was about to be proven to be quite a bit more decisive — he could have let the Vichy ships sail on to Germany or Italy and little in the war would have actually changed. Imo.


I am intrigued by the Luftwaffe sinking ships with Me-109s - no air-to-sea factors on those in WiF. Maybe the real Italians never built any NAV pieces - my hunch. They built the LND-3 SM79 and never got the one box bump for being a NAV and were thus no good out at sea.... ???? Unlike canny WiF players.
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warspite1
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Before WWII, no one knew for sure how air-power would work with ships. Carriers were developed of course, and specialized aviation squadrons and such, but it was all theory with no combat experience. So I have long thought that Italy's real failure was in the air, given their excellent access to land bases. I understand Italian aircraft designs were good, and I think WiF reflects that in the counters. But I think the Luftwaffe might have sunk more ships in the Med than the Regia Aeronautica, with less planes in theater. But I'm not sure and I have a lot to learn on the history of the air war in the Med. WiF certainly will lead you to an interest in that.

Churchill, on the other hand, probably looked at it more from the prism of Battleship #s and the balance of power therein, demonstrated so lamentably at Mers-el-Kebir in early July 1940....a sad part of the war that long-time WiF players can't quite grasp if they have played the game a lot before they ever learn about it.
Warspite1

a) The numbers are not even close iirc...the Regia Aeronautica could not compare with the Luftwaffe.

b) Not sure what you mean by that.

Mers-el-Kebir is arguably one of the saddest incidents of the war.

Through the 20/20 hindsight of history, adding several French heavy capital ships to the Axis inventory — when they hardly had the fuel to sail them and airpower was about to be proven to be quite a bit more decisive — he could have let the Vichy ships sail on to Germany or Italy and little in the war would have actually changed. Imo.
Warspite1
Mers-el-Kebir is arguably one of the saddest incidents of the war.

No arguments on that score [:(] - very sad indeed
Through the 20/20 hindsight of history, adding several French heavy capital ships to the Axis inventory — when they hardly had the fuel to sail them and airpower was about to be proven to be quite a bit more decisive — he could have let the Vichy ships sail on to Germany or Italy and little in the war would have actually changed. Imo.

Only problem with that of course is that Winston S didn't have the benefit of that hindsight. At the time the French surrendered:

- The Germans and Russians had signed a pact - Germany (and Italy) would get the oil they needed from the Soviet Union.
- Gibraltar was under real threat of invasion - Churchill couldn't know that Franco would stay out of the war.
- With Gibraltar captured, imagine the fast battleships of the Littorio or the Dunkerque-classes running amok in the Atlantic.
- The day of the battleship at an end was not then proven. How many capital ships had been lost to air attack up to then?
- Churchill was not to know that the Italian Navy would prove unable to take advantage of the clear superiority they had in the Mediterranean.

Operation Catapult. Sad? Undoubtedly. Necessary? History suggests otherwise. Understandable on Churchill's part? Absolutely.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: unlucky navy

Post by micheljq »

I faced that kind of situation in WiF as the Commonwealth.

Italy bombards the french fleet in southern France many times while France is busy defending the north against the whermacth. Italy manages to damage most of the french fleet in many port attacks.

Then France is vichied by Italy. Later Italy repairs the french now Vichy battleships. Gibraltar is overruned end of 1941.

Result : The Atlantic overuned by the Kriegsmarine, Italian fleet, and french Vichy fleet in 1942-43. Portugal invaded, Lisboa and Azores used by the italian as bases to raid my convoys. No Sealion were attempted, but I must say I feared for an invasion a lot by the end of 1941.

I managed to remain strong somewhat, the Azores remained a thorn for a long time and since Italy was using Lisboa port, I lost time retaking it. I think I did retake it end of 1943.

Allied did lose that game.
Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815
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RE: unlucky navy

Post by michaelbaldur »


this is what the BEF should look like.

4 HQ, 2 arm + div, 2 guns, 2 mecs, 2 mots, a ftr and a enigineer

have to admit I cheated a little. but fun

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the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
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bef

Post by michaelbaldur »

this is what the BEF should look like.

4 HQ, 2 arm + div, 2 guns, 2 mecs, 2 mots, a ftr and a enigineer

have to admit I cheated a little. but fun

Image
the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
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