The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

[Don Bowen]

Not sure if it applies to any of the above, but the Eastern Fleet was based on the coast of Africa for the last half of 42 and well into 43. This is outside of the map area of AE and ships assigned to the Eastern fleet need to be carefully screened to be sure they came "on map".

Best source is: http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-3900Intro.htm

[derp]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Not sure if it applies to any of the above, but the Eastern Fleet was based on the coast of Africa for the last half of 42 and well into 43. This is outside of the map area of AE and ships assigned to the Eastern fleet need to be carefully screened to be sure they came "on map".

Best source is: http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-3900Intro.htm

Yeah, I looked through that whole thing over the weekend. All of them did (I didn't list the ships that didn't) - the problem as I mentioned is that all of them also spent plenty of time off with convoys elsewhere, to Red Sea, Persian Gulf, Durban. So the problem I guess has three corners:

- You should have at least some of them available, since they were around and if the Japanese had made more than a token effort in the IO they'd have been used to meet that;
- You can't have them all available, since there are still ultimately things that need doing offmap;
- You can't have none of them available, since that creates a situation where if any 'original' ships get sunk they can't be replaced, when they manifestly could.

What I'd be inclined to do is make an appropriate proportion of them available from their actual arrival, and then withdraw them until, say, early-mid 1945 as replacements come in; so there'd be a gradual buildup, but I'm not really going to have time to work out what goes where in-game until later...

[Don Bowen]

Understand. Some of these are in Da Babes.

[JWE]

Like Don said, there’s some of them in Da Babes. This was a problem for Da Babes as well. Most of the ships you mention were on-map for a month or so, then off-map for six, then back on for three weeks, then off for eight, and so on and so on: some were only in-Theater for three weeks. Impossible to model since there’s only one withdraw and return data allowed. Would also require a major withdrawal clickfest on every turn, which we thought would annoy and irritate the general playing public.

Babes abstracts this. If 10 ships were around for a month each, the scenario abstracts this to one ship consistently on-map. It could be two ships, each with a six month withdrawal, or the like. That’s why “some” of them are in the game, while others are not. Dealer’s choice as to which one got picked, but tried to have it be one that was around the most.

The Perfect War mod uses Babes as the starting point for the ship OOB, so much of the Babes abstractions are included. Not to say this is the only, or even the best, way to do this. Just explaining how it was done, so you don’t have to reinvent or spin wheels.

[derp]

Yeah, I was sort of working on the assumption that that was the case (hence all the caveats); I guess for me personally it just seems better to have a somewhat finer grain size for these sorts of ships, since a withdrawl is a replacement but a sinking is final, if you get what I mean. I don't think it'd be too much hassle to do, since it'd only amount to a corvette or frigate every couple of months.

The Rivers do seem like a bit of an omission, though - none are available in the IO at all as far as I can see except a couple of French ones in mid-45; there's just the Australian ships through 1943-1944, then Lochs and Bays start up in July 1945; nothing much prior to that. They do seem to have been fairly active as Burma gunboats etc in addition to 'just' taking convoys around, so it seems a shame not to have'em.

[John 3rd]

I am highly concerned about anymore Allied ships to the OOB. What we have already allowed is a pretty large boost in strength as well as numbers. Stanislav is back at work on the Mod so we have forward motion. No idea much past that...

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: MateDow

I was wondering why the UK would switch their focus from the strategic to tactical. My read of the RAF (not as good as one I would have on the RN) is that they were dedicated to the concept of strategic air support. I would think that would spend the "less stressed" time to build the longer range strategic aircraft that are necessary in the PTO rather than focus on a more tactical approach.

It requires a big rewrite of history, but possibly...

Perhaps Trenchard dies and the RAF learns a different lesson between the wars? The successful policing of Iraq by a few squadrons of biplanes in conjunction with a handful of armoured cars leaves the RAF open to the idea of tactical air forces. Aware that any future war is better fought on French soil than on the British Islands the RAF develops a closer relationship with the Army. The RAF brass are more secure and less worried about losing their independence and with Trenchard gone the 'Bomber Barons' do not gain the hold on the RAF that they historically did, and the RAF is more willing to co-operate with the other services. Because of this there is less of a struggle when the RN make noise about regaining the FAA as they gear up for a war with Germany, thus the FAA returns to the Navy earlier. However, the RAF retains control of Coastal Command but with several naval officers seconded to CC.


The reduced strategic element could result in a more experienced RAF, without the massive losses of manpower that were suffered the RAF is better able to train crews and with less turn-over it is easier to pass on knowledge to the new crews.
More Spitfires are available, this means more Hurricanes in India at first. The UK would (at the very least) retain a similar number of squadrons as historical. With so many Spitfires around the Typhoon and Tempest enter service earlier as Hawkers try to build something to match the Spitfire.
Coastal Command gets more Sunderlands as the supply of Hercules engines does not go towards the Stirling (cancelled in favour of more Halifax aircraft).

The FAA gain the Seafire quicker and also show interest in a Sea-Typhoon, although this does not mature into a usable aircraft it does result in the Sea Fury entering service in 1944.




Essentially Trenchard was the driving force behind keeping the RAF independent, in the inter-war period that independence was jealously guarded. The policing of the Mid-East was an attempt at proving the RAF could win wars on it's own. However they learned the 'wrong' lesson in a way and ended up with a generation of officers who were dedicated to the mantra of a strategic force. In my fevered imagination the brass are willing to co-operate as Trenchard dies leaving the RAF without his cult of personality.

[oldman45]

It all sounds reasonable.

[MateDow]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

It requires a big rewrite of history, but possibly...

That was my point. The "bomber barons" without the lessons of close air-support from a North African campaign would prefer to build a PTO bomber force rather than a tactical force.

Derp (aka ksfgo) did make a point about the lack of available targets from British bases that would mean that only tactical air forces would be assigned to theater rather than a complete reversal of British position. It seems like a reasonable explanation to me that would fit the "reality" of fighting in India against Japan.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I am highly concerned about anymore Allied ships to the OOB. What we have already allowed is a pretty large boost in strength as well as numbers. Stanislav is back at work on the Mod so we have forward motion. No idea much past that...

John, I am not as concerned about the added ships, they are just more targets for the long lance and IJAAF/IJNAF bombers. Its some of the added infantry and placement of them.

[derp]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I am highly concerned about anymore Allied ships to the OOB. What we have already allowed is a pretty large boost in strength as well as numbers. Stanislav is back at work on the Mod so we have forward motion. No idea much past that...

* The ships were there - noone's waving any wands around and conjuring them up out of thin air;
* Work through this logical chain with me; it seems superficially sensible:

- The main driver for the movement of German submarines to the South Atlantic and then the Indian Ocean was the desire to seek targets that weren't so dangerous to attack that doing so wasn't more harmful to the submarine than to the target -> the retention of most of the French navy in the Med and Atlantic is going to put the kibosh on the submarine campaign not insignificantly earlier than would otherwise be the case -> German submarines are liable to appear in the Indian Ocean earlier and in greater numbers than would otherwise be the case.

I dunno how many, mind you, but considering that the time they'd be sent out is right before the wide provision of LR patrol aircraft and escort carriers make even transit by German submarines dangerous...

[derp]

This post was going to be a big smug one about how I'd figured out how you can do gradual increases in production of particular aircraft types. Then I thought about it a bit more and came to the conclusion that, while the idea (use 'production chit' aircraft to switch factories over to specific already-in-production types at the appropriate time) is great and works perfectly etc it'd be far less work (and far more transparent) to just make some monthly aircraft "convoys" instead. So, uh, I'm just gonna do that.

A little later tonight or tomorrow the 'final' Commonwealth aircraft chart will go here...

[DOCUP]

So any thoughts on how to do the US aircraft.  I know someone mentioned the P39 with a 2 stage turbocharger.  Also what about replacements now that the Med is quiet.  I think a few more P38s and P40s would show up as replacements.

[MateDow]

Is there any other help needed for the naval side of things?

My read is that it is pretty much squared away, but I am willing to help if some is needed. Just let me know what.

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

So any thoughts on how to do the US aircraft.  I know someone mentioned the P39 with a 2 stage turbocharger.  Also what about replacements now that the Med is quiet.  I think a few more P38s and P40s would show up as replacements.

I think it was I that suggested the two stage supercharge for the P-39. It was designed for one, but the prevailing (hide-bound) thinking of the air corps was that the best use for fighters was not engaging other fighters, and that the P-39 would be employed supporting troops. I played around, and tried to work up numbers which might reflect the building of some of them as the P-400 with performance near the P-63, and have it in small numbers at the beginning of the war. More facile brains than mine would have to really work out what the difference would have been should the Army Air Corps not sit on its collective brains.

[DOCUP]

Any new or updates?

[Commander Stormwolf]

P-39 as it was designed looked something like this..

[Jo van der Pluym]

Hi

Is there all a date for the release of the first version?

[DOCUP]

Bump?

[DOCUP]

Don't know if this mod has been put on hold or canned but I will try to start a discussion here. 
 
If we go from the POV of the battle for North Africa didn't happen, what would the US AC replacments look like? 
 
Also what about adding the P 39s with the turbro charged engines and having a trickle of replacements?