UK force limit

[JLPOWELL]

Calculating manpower requirements for military units is VERY complex. Phil points out correctly that logistical units are part of the equation. To keep the game simple we will need a simple rule. A good example of how complex a manpower estimate is take a nuclear bomb unit. What is the requirement 300 ground and tech staff and a handful of flight crew? I don't think so. What you are really looking at is tens of thousands of workers at Hanford, Oak Ridge, and Los Alamos, working for years to get the process started and then to sustain production. All for a few kilos of Pu and a 'package' Whole cities were created to facilitate production.

[JLPOWELL]

Phil makes a VERY key point. The US was looking for force multipliers and the objective was in Maximum Combat Effect with minimum casualties (well maximum enemy casualties was OK...) Further the USA had just and incredible resource pool. LOTS of EVERYTHING manpower manufacturing capacity oil scientific talent you name it. US planners concluded that the war would be won nearly for certain fairly early on, only a matter of how long and what the butcher's bill would be. (BTW Pre War Japanese military intelligence analysis ALSO indicated that attacking the US was doomed to failure unless the US collapsed politically. They correctly concluded that they would loose a protracted war and had ZERO chance to successful invade the US the Japanese political analysis indicated incorrectly that they US would not pay the required price to defeat Japan) US planners looked to minimize the human and material cost of a war that at least by 1943 they believed thy were certain to win . They concluded that the quicker the conclusion was reached the lower the cost (both Human and material) which is a key reason mass infantry tactics were not used (Slower with higher casualties) 12 Million men go a long way LOTS of infantry divisions if you want them and the US of all the major powers used the least of their theoretical maximum available manpower. The Germans by contrast were completely at the ABSOLUTE bottom of the manpower pool at the end of the war using children and and the elderly. The low historical count of foot infantry for the US is a result of the FACT that they could afford the mechanize all ground forces and recognized that men in Tanks would win the war faster and the supply of Tanks (and fuel for them) was not a limiting factor. 1944 US GDP exceeded ALL AXIS GDP by a nearly 2:1 factor was increasing each year (less in 45 only because the war ended)

The US produced about 2.5 MILLION military vehicles during the war NO one needed to walk and well over 300,000 aircraft in case driving was too slow. These are the reasons the US deployed so few 'foot' infantry divisions.

[quote]ORIGINAL: aspqrz

...

So, for example, if the US had fielded German/Russian style non-motorised infantry divisions, they figured they could have fielded around 450 of them!!! Yet, as noted above, they fielded a nominal 90-100 or so, or double that if nondivisional combat units are counted as well (which they should be).

...

Phil

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL
I think the main thing needed is visibility to the player without having to dig for info. If there must be a cap have it affect the purchase price of new units (and splitting existing units of course) still better would be a gradual sliding scale which looks at all units not just infantry units and again once the overall military size gets large start making units (perhaps as simple as all units) progressively more expensive to split reinforce or purchase. The % strength must be a factor but unit level should not. Applying the restriction at the purchase level eliminates the'gotcha' effect. Also rather than not counting armor and mech units (resource hogs for sure) they would be at least counted.

I agree entirely ... Players need to see the limits, and see how much each unit costs towards the limit ... maybe there should be ab absolute PP cost ceiling for a nation's Land Forces (and, by extension, their Naval and Air Forces) ... so 250 German Infantry Divions @ 10 PP each, = 2500 PP, another 45-50 Armour/Mech Divisions @ an average of 70 PP (c. 30 PP for Mech, c. 110 PP for armour), for another 3500 PP ... so, a total PP limit for the Wehrmacht would be 3500 PP, say.

Likewise, work out the number of planes each Air unit actually represents, then work out the total production of combat aircraft by each side, and work out an averaged PP cost for that number of aircraft. Ditto the navy.

To allow for some flexibility, allow a bugger factor of, say, +10-15% (no more). Or allow, by regular event card, to transfer PPs from the Cap of one Arm of Service/Type of Unit to the Cap for another.

So, if the Germans want a bigger navy, for Sealion, they need to transfer 1000 PP from Mechanised Units or the Luftwaffe to the Kriegsmarine, say. And, since there won't be a 100% efficiency in the conversion, that 1000 PP actually transfers as, say, 750 PP.

Something like that should work, I think (sez me with my "I can program 'Hello World' in Basic and that's about all" T-Shirt on, of course [8|] so maybe it isn't possible, or not economically possible [:-])

Phil

[aspqrz02]

And starting on 6 DEC 41, and completed in time for 2, count 'em, two, bombs by August 1945 ... 3.5 years production/research time.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL
The US produced about 2.5 MILLION military vehicles during the war NO one needed to walk and well over 300,000 aircraft in case driving was too slow. These are the reasons the US deployed so few 'foot' infantry divisions.

Indeed, even without access to Corps and Army level Truck units, a nominally "Leg" US Infantry Division was capable of jamming everyone on wheels and transporting them for short distances (short by motor standards ... say 30-50 miles ... or 2-5 days march by actual leg infantry) ... sure, it involved jamming 8-10 guys in a jeep, a whole platoon, or a couple of Platoons, in a Dump Truck from the divisional engineer unit and the like, and, no, you weren't going to go seamlessly into combat at the end, but you would out"march" any German non-mech unit, even discounting the effect of allied airpower.

Phil

[JLPOWELL]

Actually four were available by the end of August with three per month for September and October and from there the Pu production (the limiting factor for non thermonuclear weapon production) rate only went up until the 1970's ToF goes to 1948. Hanford reactors were pumping out LOTS of pu by late 45 LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS by 46 Plenty enough to make Germany look like the moon by 47. Of course it wouldn't likely have gone that far even if Germany was doing well when the first on hit Like as not if Germany was doing well it would have been a November surprise of about 10 strikes... game over ...

Four weapons (the Trinity gadget, Little Boy, Fat Man, and an unused bomb) were produced by the end of August 1945, making the average cost per bomb around $500 million in 1945 dollars. By comparison, the project's total cost by the end of 1945 was about 90% of the total spent on the production of US small arms (not including ammunition) and 34% of the total spent on US tanks during the same period. (Paraphrased from Wikipedia) Subsequent production brings the cost per weapon down considerably and in the end NOTHING gives more bang for the buck... Lots of bucks sure but the BANG

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

And starting on 6 DEC 41, and completed in time for 2, count 'em, two, bombs by August 1945 ... 3.5 years production/research time.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

Indeed, by first quarter 46 the monthly rate was expected to be, IIRC, 12 bombs, rising to 15 by second quarter [X(]

The first two (or four) were merely the beginning of a flood [X(]

Phil

[Cannon Cocker]

So what are the limits for each country?
Are those limits constant or do they change over time?

[wolf14455]

ORIGINAL: Cannon Cocker

So what are the limits for each country?
Are those limits constant or do they change over time?

I want to know that too.

[JLPOWELL]

From what I can see the limits are fixed. They can be found in the rather difficult to parse (particularly for non technical users) increasing_upkeep_cost.xml file. Its 8000+ rows so I for one am certain not to generate a 'parsed' version.

BTW According to Doomtrader the upkeep process is being revised.

[wolf14455]

Revised? Good to know, thanx.

[welk]

Attached is a event.txt where these limitations are turned off (not suppressed in list, just turned off). If you in the event txt file and erase the ; at start of line

[wolf14455]

Interesting, thanx.