Play against the AI - waste of time

[doomtrader]

We never claimed that the game is a historical simulation, and we always tried to stay away from myths.


Siberian troops brought following units into the game:
First wave:
13, 17, 57 Tankovya
109, 46, 159 Strelkovya
22,24 Armija
Second:
59 Tankovya
99 Strelkovya
Third:
21,26,32,114 Strelkovya
Fourth:
112,113 Tankovya
413 Strelkovya
Fifth:
58,60 Tankovya
78,92,239,415 Strelkovya

If there are any valuable sources which might improve the OOB of those units, please share it.

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Play multiplayer. Enjoy.

Was sure someone would say that[;)]

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
We never claimed that the game is a historical simulation,

First of all it's a WW2 game so call it something else if you want to play fantasy.

Of course I'm not buying this so that WW2 unfold exactly as it did but if the game can't give you that feel then it's not a WW2 game.

At last I beg to differ as it's advertised that way as being a game that replicates the depth and complexity of this global conflict.

So far this is not true.

[Petiloup]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
and we always tried to stay away from myths.

Siberian troops brought following units into the game:
First wave:
13, 17, 57 Tankovya
109, 46, 159 Strelkovya
22,24 Armija
Second:
59 Tankovya
99 Strelkovya
Third:
21,26,32,114 Strelkovya
Fourth:
112,113 Tankovya
413 Strelkovya
Fifth:
58,60 Tankovya
78,92,239,415 Strelkovya

If there are any valuable sources which might improve the OOB of those units, please share it.

It's not about OOB it's about their efficiency during Winter. At least you could give them better action pts than other units but anyway that's a detail.

In the game the German wins by sheer number of troops. This doesn't give me the replication of the depth and complexity of WW2. It gives me an AI tweaked so it's lack of efficiency is hidden by FOW and cannon fodder.

So as said I'm sorry coming hard but I bought a game that could give me that depth and complexity feel and I just get crap... all around from:

- Production
- Convoys
- AI
- Declaration of war with no follow up
- Kriegsmarine on suicide missions
- Paratroops flying hundreds of miles (read Market Garden and understand the stretch already it was for the most rich army in the world at that time).
- French Navy going German on a Vichy event
- Troop disappearing when a country surrenders (read my next post "Belgian surrenders event not tested")
- Sidi Barrani supplying armies (did you ever went to see what this "town" was???) how can you even think it would supply more than a few camels but it does if you are cut of your main supply lines. I can imagine it's to represent supply dumps... but then just do that make a simulation of a supply dump, not an unlimited amount of supply from tiny specs on the map.



Now you claimed wanting to simplify the game to make it accessible to everyone but then just sell that by stating:

"Time of Fury a game set in the WW2 period. This game isn't a complete simulation of that period but it will give you a beautifully rendered game (and it is, I love the maps and units) that will give you the flavor of WW2 in a simple and elegant design that would overwhelm players.

Anyone looking for a full simulation of WW2 might not get that but they would still enjoy this fact paced and enjoyable game."

But this statement isn't right "to replicate the depth and complexity of this global conflict and only a few have managed to give an all around experience to players."

I played wargames for 30 years now and this is for me an advanced RISK nothing more at least not till you fixed the AI.

On the comment of playing PBEM then true enough this is a FANTASTIC game if it was just that a Boardgame on a computer with no AI.

I don't deny the amount of work and the great value of this game as PBEM or multi-player and once some glitches are solved it would be giving pleasure for players but this isn't what I signed for as I'm mainly looking at playing against the AI when I have the time not to spend with my family so I can enjoy my fix in Wargames.

I was craving for something nice even knowing AI wouldn't compete but here I don't even have that. I would accept more numbers of troops to compensate somehow for quality of the AI but not to that extend.

Also if I play Axis I will win all the time and if I play Allies (GB, US and USSR) I'm sure I'll win each time as well so what's the point?

This is what I mean by playing AI is a waste of time. I don't mind to loose against the AI and in fact I love it as it forces me to revise strategies but I never lost a game in a computer because the Germans were able to muster more troops than the Red Army in the same amount of time.

Anyway hope my comment can lead to a strong overhaul of the AI and the production.

[Razz1]

Convoys... Read up on your history. The British supplied through the Med until May 1941 when the Germans could no longer support North Africa. Then the Luftwaffe used Stuka's to force the Brits to go around the horn.

U Boats... they are raiders and avoid detection. You need to search for them. They are in the Atlantic. The game has depth. It has detection. You failed to detect them.

Kriegsmarine... So you are complaining that the AI decided to attack your convoys? I know humans use this strategy too.

Each sea zone is large. A fleet will move and prevent being sunk. Just because it is hard don't complain. What fun would it be to build a ship for two years or 104 turns only to have them killed in any battle they engage in?


Canada... would have been nice but they wanted to make the game simpler. I agree. You can use the Third Reich scenario in order to get convoy shipments from Canada

Norway... That was in the game but they took that out to make it simpler. Not my choice. I agree. See the Third Reich Scenario tm.asp?m=3042300

Winter war. Finland doesn't always get Leningrad. In time I will look at that and improve that area.

Western Front That is normal The Germans were never prepared for war until March 1940. Have you ever heard of the phoney war?

So you play ahistorical take Finland and Persia then attack Germany in 194 and get your ass kicked and pushed all the way back. That is not fun? ? ?

Try the Third Reich scenario

[gwgardner]

The AI is better for some countries than others. Look at my Barbarossa AAR in the Slitherine forums. The AI whipped me. That was on normal for human and AI.

Nowadays I play only hard for human and usually AI (except for Italy) solely because I want less bloated production.

[doomtrader]

Polonthi, whats make you think that the Siberian units were better than others? Could you please share some sources?

[JLPOWELL]

Polonthi,

Simulations of this type are pretty challenging to design and implement. By far the most difficult thing is development of an effective AI, particularly without just over weighting the strength. Getting the AI to move intelligently is very complex. I am sure you can see from my posts I don't hesitate to point out faults in this game. You do make a few valid points. That Matrix misrepresented what they were offering is not one however. Except for the USSR the AI is pretty hopeless against an experienced player. It does fill the need for an 'opponent' and when someone is first learning the game it can put up some significant resistance.

An AI which emulates the play of a skilled human player is currently beyond the current state of 'art' in this genre of game. My understanding is they have abandoned (albeit temporary) the attempt in the World in Flames game development. This type of game is vastly more difficult than for example chess for a computer to deal with.

I have gone thru your points below and added some responses. Most of the problems with the game are addressable and this game is evolving. It started as Time of Wrath (which didn't really work for me) and has improved significantly.

ORIGINAL: Polonthi

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
and we always tried to stay away from myths.

Siberian troops brought following units into the game:
First wave:
13, 17, 57 Tankovya
109, 46, 159 Strelkovya
22,24 Armija
Second:
59 Tankovya
99 Strelkovya
Third:
21,26,32,114 Strelkovya
Fourth:
112,113 Tankovya
413 Strelkovya
Fifth:
58,60 Tankovya
78,92,239,415 Strelkovya

If there are any valuable sources which might improve the OOB of those units, please share it.

It's not about OOB it's about their efficiency during Winter. At least you could give them better action pts than other units but anyway that's a detail.

In the game the German wins by sheer number of troops. This doesn't give me the replication of the depth and complexity of WW2. It gives me an AI tweaked so it's lack of efficiency is hidden by FOW and cannon fodder.

So as said I'm sorry coming hard but I bought a game that could give me that depth and complexity feel and I just get crap... all around from:

- Production (not too bad IMO a few too many points available but basically sound - JLPowell)
- Convoys (A problem which is being addressed)
- AI (reasonable expectations are needed here compared with other games of this type - JLPowell)
- Declaration of war with no follow up (AI poorly handles unexpected a Dow 'event' generates an outcome but the AI is not intelligent enough to organize an effective offensive when conditions are not 'standard' or attack 'difficult' targets like for example Norway {for that matter human usually can't take Norway as GE without the event 'either'})
- Kriegsmarine on suicide missions (Both AI and naval rules are weak so AI naval is likely weakest element of the game - JLPowell)
- Paratroops flying hundreds of miles (read Market Garden and understand the stretch already it was for the most rich army in the world at that time). (Air transport is not modeled so the airborne tend to get overused again a tradeoff between playability and realism - JLPowell)
- French Navy going German on a Vichy event (event is a design decision possibly driven by some odds I agree its pretty implausible - JLPowell)
- Troop disappearing when a country surrenders (read my next post "Belgian surrenders event not tested")(a valid point but not a 'game breaker, generally has minimal effect on play - JLPowell)
- Sidi Barrani supplying armies (did you ever went to see what this "town" was???) how can you even think it would supply more than a few camels but it does if you are cut of your main supply lines. I can imagine it's to represent supply dumps... but then just do that make a simulation of a supply dump, not an unlimited amount of supply from tiny specs on the map.(Supply from cities was done to keep the game simple it does lead to some anachronisms where small towns are depicted I have been there and there is water and a road and supplies could be landed by by sea, but thats true for just about the whole coastline in that area 9 pts of intrinsic supply seems to much IMO That said there are many small ports etc not represented for simplicity {Mas Matruh is nearby and much larger for example] Supply is another difficult area, attempting to simulate it in detail would burden the game with a lot of complexity. - JLPowell)



Now you claimed wanting to simplify the game to make it accessible to everyone but then just sell that by stating:

"Time of Fury a game set in the WW2 period. This game isn't a complete simulation of that period but it will give you a beautifully rendered game (and it is, I love the maps and units) that will give you the flavor of WW2 in a simple and elegant design that would overwhelm players.

Anyone looking for a full simulation of WW2 might not get that but they would still enjoy this fact paced and enjoyable game."

But this statement isn't right "to replicate the depth and complexity of this global conflict and only a few have managed to give an all around experience to players."

I played wargames for 30 years now and this is for me an advanced RISK nothing more at least not till you fixed the AI.

On the comment of playing PBEM then true enough this is a FANTASTIC game if it was just that a Boardgame on a computer with no AI.

I don't deny the amount of work and the great value of this game as PBEM or multi-player and once some glitches are solved it would be giving pleasure for players but this isn't what I signed for as I'm mainly looking at playing against the AI when I have the time not to spend with my family so I can enjoy my fix in Wargames.

I was craving for something nice even knowing AI wouldn't compete but here I don't even have that. I would accept more numbers of troops to compensate somehow for quality of the AI but not to that extend.

Also if I play Axis I will win all the time and if I play Allies (GB, US and USSR) I'm sure I'll win each time as well so what's the point? (PBEM is pretty workable some if you can live with a few rough edges re the sequence of play and events - JLPowell)

This is what I mean by playing AI is a waste of time. I don't mind to loose against the AI and in fact I love it as it forces me to revise strategies but I never lost a game in a computer because the Germans were able to muster more troops than the Red Army in the same amount of time.(I will stipulate that the ToF AI is not agile enough to effectively fight a skilled human, But I don't know of any other theater level WW2 game which can do this however - JLPowell)

Anyway hope my comment can lead to a strong overhaul of the AI and the production.

[buchand]

I would agree if:
1) there was no modularity via the country difficulty settings
2) any research before buying the game would show that it is not WITE or similar [where a wrong regimental TOE in '42 gives rise to a deluge of posts [:)]
3) the developers were not responding to problems by issuing patches [naval war fix please]
But thats not the case and the AI setting, however good it is, will not suit all players anyway. Some will crush the Allies/Axis as soon as they learn the game while others will struggle for months to succeed so reset the AI and get posts from those who can never get past 1942?

I'm still juggling prefeences in WITE to get the balance right for me. The same with TOF and am enjoying both while doing so.
Anyway the fact that it reminds me of a board game on a computer is what attracts me to it - my fingers could no longer cope with juggling thousands of counters and with 4 cats would never get past turn 3 [:D]