Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis. Oloren now permitted.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I think this game is just as bad an example on play balance you can find, sorry terje! This game was lost a long time ago.
If anything, and even without muling, 1941 heavily favors the German. It's practically impossible to keep Leningrad & Moscow. 2 cities which did not fall historically. And if the Soviet is not careful, he'll lose Voronezh and Rostov too.
So how can anyone really claim 1941 is to easy on the Soviet?

Secondly, if the Axis gets seriously mauled during the Blizzard, it's his own fault. Just like the Russian in 1941, he has the option to retreat (if necessary) and save his army. If he doesn't, and fights unprepared, it's his own damn fault. The judgement of where to fight is the players choice, not the game. And let's not forget Blizzard was dialed down substantially over the patches. So what do German players expect?

In summary, the game mechanisms are clear, it's up to the players to make the choices that will gain them the advantage, be that in where to attack, where to defend, where to retreat. He who does this best will likely win.

What do people want more?

And by the way Micheal T, I would not play with or against your Southern opening, there is no better example of raping the system because of perfect knowledge.

Ultimately, I blame the game design here. Michael is just doing what the game lets him do. The whole surprise turn needs a second look and tighter mechanics. My quick and dirty fix: remove the first turn movement penalties on the Soviets. That by itself would make some of these reckless pockets a lot sketchier to pull off.

[glvaca]

Flav, I understand your point, and perhaps your proposed solution does the trick. But untill that time, I think it speaks for itself that German players need to moderate the exploits possible, there's only so far you can go without becoming a total hypocrite.

Concerning the design, I understand Joel's point that it just isn't so easy to fix in the setup. Neither is your solution probably so easy to implement without serious testing. Imagine the outrage possible if something unexpected happens as a consequence [:D]

Incidentally, MichealT, your reference to the Operational Combat Series in defence of muling is completely bullocks. Anyone who has played the East front games of that series knows that the Germans are critically *SHORT* of supply and NEVER can afford to run around all their panzer divisions every turn, at all. In fact, the supply system there is actually the designers way of LIMITING mobility NOT increasing it. So total bullocks.

I do apologize for the language, but these discussions are getting on my nerves.

[Michael T]

You need not worry glvaca, we won't ever play each other

[AFV]

I have a question for Terje regarding a comment he made earlier regarding FZ. Do Fort Zones really not keep a fort from decaying?
I was not aware of this.

[karonagames]

The turn you build a FZ it is depleted, and does not prevent decay. They also vanish if a unit moves next to them, as I found to my cost when the Finns walked into Leningrad!!!!

[randallw]

I suspect they disappear because the counter CV is 0, when it's freshly made.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: vicberg
Flav, you wouldn't like to hear this, but muling is a requirement against a competent soviet oppoenent. This game is out of whack, which is why there's so few posts on the AAR forum. Too much FOW. Too random CV on hasty attacks. No two hex (or more) attacks on hasty. Fuel and morale is key. Muling is a requriement.

Just like a semi-orderly withdrawl and carpet defense is a requirement against a competent German player, resulting in more German HQ build-ups and muling, and around we go like a feedback loop. Russians shouldn't be capable of an orderly withdrawl until the 3rd quarter of 1942. Carpet defense (to the extent some AARs are showing) is only plausible for one major region starting in 2nd quarter 1942 (say Leningrad, Moscow, or the Donbas, with Moscow being the historical choice), and adding one other region in 2nd quarter of 1943 (Kursk salient was the historical choice).

Russian players are mostly forced to use these tactics againt HQ build-up and especially muling. Historically, Russian defensive deployments lacked depth (especially in 1941, and to a lesser degree in 1942), which is why the Germans were able to bring off encirclements: Once they blew through the front line, there was little behind to stop the panzers. Imagine a Russian player playing with a strong but thin front line defense. He will completely get torn to shreads with HQ build-ups. German breakthroughs were much less the results of logistical superiority, as the Germans didn't really have that capability. It was more a result of operational superiority and Russian defenses (for the most part) lacking depth.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: glvaca
Incidentally, MichealT, your reference to the Operational Combat Series in defence of muling is completely bullocks. Anyone who has played the East front games of that series knows that the Germans are critically *SHORT* of supply and NEVER can afford to run around all their panzer divisions every turn, at all. In fact, the supply system there is actually the designers way of LIMITING mobility NOT increasing it.

Agreed. From literally the first game of WitE I played as the Germans, I've been sctratching my head as to why the Germans always seem to have a notable surplus of trucks in the motor pool. It seems counter-intuitive to what we read in books, saying that the Germans were chronically short of trucks. Maybe I'm just not quite understanding what the truck pool represents in the game.

[Tophat1815]

No Schmart you are as far as I can tell quite right in the observation the germans should lack motor transport. The numbers in the truck pool seem quite high to me as well but I have been hesitant to bring it up. I do believe it has been brought up before though in other threads. Don't wish to sidetrack this AAR either.

Terje things are going to be very interesting indeed for you but hope springs eternal and your opponent might well be prone to over confidence and overextend himself.

[terje439]

To all - No offence taken when you claim this game has been lost a long time, actually I think I was the first one to say so after all [:D]

The game will go on, and we will fight it out, no bets are taken on a Axis defeat though [:D]


Terje

[terje439]

Turn 53

Disclaimer
Short on time today, as I finally got the internet back up after losing it on Sunday, so alot of pbem games to respond to. Hence no picture.

Overall
Mud. No attacks are made, but the USSR falls back a little in the Baltic, nothing much, but we will take what we get.

Losses
USSR : 51.000 troops, 464 guns, 5 AFVs, 218 AC.
Axis : 26.000 troops, 132 guns, 51 AFVs, 21 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 165.444
Vehicle : 190.576
Armaments : 281.558
Hiwi : 3

Pest control
4 partisans are chased away, leaving one on the map.

[terje439]

Turn 54

Overall
With the mud gone again, our forces are ordered to attack wherever possible. The ammount of attacks this results in is pityful at best. We manage no more than 19 attacks, scoring 5 held and 14 retreats, and we lose close to one panzer division worth of AFVs in doing do. The result on the ground is some 15-20 hexes won.

Losses
USSR : 86.000 troops, 1.116 guns, 181 AFVs, 180 AC.
Axis : 36.000 troops, 472 guns, 225 AFVs, 35 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 172.988
Vehicle : 196.849
Armaments : 292.554
Hiwi : 0

Pest control
We chase down all 7 active partisans this turn.

[Tophat1815]

What does it look like south of Kiev?

[terje439]

More of what you see. Dug in USSR troops behind the river face weak German Infantry.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

Im still new to this game but I think I have a good understanding of it all. My 0.02$ about the muling vs Carpet/Checkboard thing.

I respond by asking a historical question: Given that by July 31 AGC was fought to a standstill with many of its leading tank/motorized divisions bled white, the flanks of AGN/S were fighting a grueling advance, and the entire German war machine was already feeling some serious heat, is what were seeing with a difficult German game really hard to believe?

Had Stalin decided to pull the SW Front behind the Dnepr and give up Kiev...would the war have lasted as long as it did? When we read about the dismal condition of PzGr2, we realize that it was only b/c of Stalins refusal to back up that the major encirclement of Kiev ever happened. W/O that encirclement its doubtful the Russians would have been knocked off-balance and the rest of Barbarossa would have likely taken a different path. The real WITE was a combination of fear, ego's, calamity and luck. By any measure, its amazing the Germans did as well as they did.....and they still lost. To try and recreate this would take a rigid set of rules and structuring that would reshape the game. Even in HOI3 (one of my favorites) the Russians can just fall back and force the Germans to extend their army deep into Asia and let the allies build up. Hindsight is nice. IMO. Russia should win a minimum of half the time outright and maybe be fought to a draw 4/10 times at best. It should take a stellar German player and a poor Russian to for a total Russian loss. Anything else and its not a historical recreation.

[Tophat1815]

Concentrate an army of 'good" morale and cv infantry along with 3 or 4 panzer corps to make a breakthrough and try for an encirclement. Does anything in your OOB look like you can gather that kind of force now? Infantry not armor needs to be used to make the breakthrough and armor/mobile units exploit. One of the troubling things I have noted is the level of tank losses you seem to incur and that has me wondering exactly how you are using those panzer divisions?

I know my advice/suggestions might seem totally obvious but i have also fallen into the rut of pushing attacks passed when an operational plan needed modification or to be discarded. Are the attacks you are taking now just opportunity attack where you think you have the reds at good odds? Or are you working toward a plan to setup a favorable operation? My guess is the former but i'm hoping its to set up an Op.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

Concentrate an army of 'good" morale and cv infantry along with 3 or 4 panzer corps to make a breakthrough and try for an encirclement. Does anything in your OOB look like you can gather that kind of force now? Infantry not armor needs to be used to make the breakthrough and armor/mobile units exploit. One of the troubling things I have noted is the level of tank losses you seem to incur and that has me wondering exactly how you are using those panzer divisions?

I know my advice/suggestions might seem totally obvious but i have also fallen into the rut of pushing attacks passed when an operational plan needed modification or to be discarded. Are the attacks you are taking now just opportunity attack where you think you have the reds at good odds? Or are you working toward a plan to setup a favorable operation? My guess is the former but i'm hoping its to set up an Op.

There simply is not enough CV left in the Wehrmacht I am afraid. To be able to make any sort of push there is no option but to deploy the panzers, and they are worn down quickly. The infantry is too weak. So now I am more inclined to halt all attacks, shorten the front and go on the defensive. There just is no strength left to push through the USSR defences..
See below to see just how bad things are.

Terje

[terje439]

Turn 55

Overall
Well, things are worse than bad. Whenever there seems to be a chance of a successful attack the USSR manage to send 1-2 divisions in as reserve, totally changing the odds. The result is devastating, and the fact that the USSR manage to force more retreats than the Axis now, is a major concern. We make 18 attacks, all at about 2 : 1 pre battle, and get a result of 13 held and 5 retreats! The USSR launch 6 attacks and score 6 retreats. The end is near I fear. Feel like falling back in the north to shorthen the front and go on the defensive while our panzers still have some strenght left.

Losses
USSR : 76.000 troops, 795 guns, 41 AFVs, 333 AC.
Axis : 49.000 troops, 268 guns, 265 AFVs, 9 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 178.814
Vehicle : 204.071
Armaments : 285.709
Hiwi : 8

Pest control
5 partisans are chased away.

Damned if we do, Damned if we don't
As we all agree, the game is lost. Now it is a matter of how to lose. Do we keep pushing and wither down our forces even more, or simply start digging in in the hope to have a level 3 fortified belt some 10 hexes deep? I am actually more and more inclined to the latter atm. The USSR defences are too high, and our infantry far too weak (avg strength probably 4).

[glvaca]

Personally, I'd consider resigning and restarting. You'll not learn a lot from continuing the game and it won't be a lot of fun.
I know you are a very sportive player but sometimes it's better to quite and restart. With the lessons learned in this game, you'll most likely have a much more fun experience in the next.

[karonagames]

Hi Terje: You should never expect an initial raw 2:1 odds attack to be successful; you have to allow for GG's randomness and the likelihood of reserves. These days I make deliberate attacks with 3-4:1 raw odds with reserves in the area. Hasties need to be 4-5:1 with offensive reserves available as they have a lot more variance and can get crucified by reserves. You have to counter his reserves with your reserves.

edit: If you don't think you can force him east of the Dneiper in 1942, then it will be a short game, but at least you will get a chance to get your reserve units doing what the soviets are doing to you now!

edited edit: You could try a feigned retreat, and see if he leaves his level 3's; once he is out of entrenchments you should have more chances with your attacks. Once you get to the line you want to defend, if he moves into contact keep attacking to force him back from your line but don't move into the vacated hex, this has the triple benefit of reducing attrition, reducing fatigue and rebuilds your morale: in my game with gids, it took him a few turns to figure out what I was doing, so my infantry morale increased and CVs went up from 4 to 5.