Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

Thank you, Erik!
I already get some good ideas from reading this, like immediatly mining the russian ports with subs to get some sinkings when his subs leave.

But it also shows me what I expected:
A Japanese move against the Russians means that he will be unable to mount any significant attacks vs. Australia, Ceylon, India, or the American pacific islands. The Americans will move up their timetable for moving large forces to Australia. I anticipate beginning my counteroffensive in late 42-early 43. That’s nearly 6 months earlier than I originally planned. However, it all depends on where the KB goes and what happens to it….
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Another bro battle.... :)

I will refrain from commenting. Not really qualified anymore.
Au contraire, mon ami!
I'd love to have you commenting!
Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

I was reading the AARs for several hours, now.

My conclusions:
1. Big mistake not to immediately concentrate north to get to Lake Baikal
2. Rader dispersed his forces significantly by all his scattered invasions. If you don't have a HR preventing the Allies to bomb conquered territory, it makes sense to capture the huge ressource bases as late as possible.
3. He invaded while the chinese were still active and could even considered to be "strong" (He never took Changsha and Sian!)
4. I guess you have to be prepared to halt all ressource and oil convois in reach of soviet shipping and planes for a month at least, if you don't want to loose too much

The air suppression campaign has to be done with all power and from the beginning. But while the certain way to combat soviet planes is to take their bases, I am defenitly convinced that Japan has to create a roadblock at Khabarovsk but otherwise has to push towards Lake Baikal with all forces. He spent months fighting in forests and swamps in the south, loosing enormous amounts of troops while getting bombed in the north.

If I am going to attack, I will create a reserve of a handfull divisions and brigades to rail them to the contested bases if he counterattacks from the Vladivostok pocket. But the rest will storm north!
He can have lvl 9 fortresses in the south and good units, but once his HI and LI is smashed, they won't help him much.
So:

Stage 1:
- achieve air supreiority
- suppression of enemy airfields
- cut railroad at Khabarovsk or Iman/Bikin in the south
- capture Borzya, Shilka and Chita to cut the Railraods a second time
- Two brigades march from Mangan to Wuteh to build forts in the rugged terrain and to block any Russian invasion into the protectorate of Inner Mongolia

Stage 2:
- Split a sufficiant blocking force from the Northern Arm to march east to take Mogocha. This will secure the eastern flank and block the good road to Hailar
- The main forces of the Northern Army march North to take Irkusk

Stage 3:
- Capture Krasnoyarsk

Stage 4:
The two pockets in the south and the bases at Magadan and Petropavlovsk should be starved by now. They are to be conquered one by one, each with superior forces and after massive bombardement.


Problems:
- Tannu Tuva and Abakan. Both are almost impossible to be reached by land. But both can host Soviet forces and given enough time, the soviets might stage a comeback from Abakan... Paras from Kiuchan in China can land in Tannu Tuva. Reinforces by an airlanded Base Force, another paradrop might reach Abakan. This should block one of the three exits from interior Soviet Union. Unfortunately, he has strong Paratroops of his own from the beginning and there's no way I can send and supply enough forces from the air.
- The likely counterattack from Ondorhaan (1400AV) in eastern Mongolia has to be dealt with, somehow...
- I have to find a way to both gain air superiority AND defend my industrial bases...


But I think it is doable, especially after I've taken out China and can bring additional divisions from there!
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Chickenboy »

I respectfully submit that you will not be able to accomplish your goal of 'taking out' China with a 5/42 start and also successfully attack the Soviets.

What is it with you guys and attacking the Russians? [:'(][;)]
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I respectfully submit that you will not be able to accomplish your goal of 'taking out' China with a 5/42 start and also successfully attack the Soviets.

What is it with you guys and attacking the Russians? [:'(][;)]
quite possible! If it doesn't work, any russian campaign won't happen, either.
Russia is the natural choice.

Australia captured only increases your LOC and opens a whole continent for invasion - which is consequently undefendable.
India captured increases your LOC and also opens a whole continent for certain invasion, which either forces you to garrison it with enormous amounts of troops that are missed somewhere and are likely not to achieve their goal, either.
Alaska increases your LOC with nothing at all to gain.
Pacific increases your LOC with nothing to gain.

Russia keeps the LOC short, allows land transfer and is almost totally secure from invasion if taken out totally. It also offers some oil, lots of ressources and some factories for weapons and planes.
Also, the Russians will inevitably attack when their forces are so strong that there's not the slightest chance to defeat them. Do you want to see Type 95 Ha-Gos fight JS-3 and T-34/85? I don't...


I don't like that approach most have to either (try to) gulp too much (Australia or India) or to be pessemistic and simply dig in after occupying the SRA.
I don't play for points and I don't play to be his punching ball. Russia gives me the chance to win the war.

It's like in Ian Kershaw's Fatefull Choices. I think "England" can be defeated by defeating Russia. [;)]
What is it with you guys and attacking the Russians?
I'm German... [;)]
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Historiker
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I respectfully submit that you will not be able to accomplish your goal of 'taking out' China with a 5/42 start and also successfully attack the Soviets.

What is it with you guys and attacking the Russians? [:'(][;)]
quite possible! If it doesn't work, any russian campaign won't happen, either.
Russia is the natural choice.

Australia captured only increases your LOC and opens a whole continent for invasion - which is consequently undefendable.
India captured increases your LOC and also opens a whole continent for certain invasion, which either forces you to garrison it with enormous amounts of troops that are missed somewhere and are likely not to achieve their goal, either.
Alaska increases your LOC with nothing at all to gain.
Pacific increases your LOC with nothing to gain.

Russia keeps the LOC short, allows land transfer and is almost totally secure from invasion if taken out totally. It also offers some oil, lots of ressources and some factories for weapons and planes.
Also, the Russians will inevitably attack when their forces are so strong that there's not the slightest chance to defeat them. Do you want to see Type 95 Ha-Gos fight JS-3 and T-34/85? I don't...


I don't like that approach most have to either (try to) gulp too much (Australia or India) or to be pessemistic and simply dig in after occupying the SRA.
I don't play for points and I don't play to be his punching ball. Russia gives me the chance to win the war.

It's like in Ian Kershaw's Fatefull Choices. I think "England" can be defeated by defeating Russia. [;)]

While you were posting this I was looking back to see if you have an HR on strat bombing in China. If not, and I didn't see one, you really need to take up to Sian and possibly Lanchow to get the oil/fuel, take the SE and into Changsha. Paoshan would be a big plus. A nice finish wold be Nanning/Liuchow cutting the rail.

After that you could possibly just set up an MLR and start bombing the central bases, letting China rot while you go to Russia. All of that is a lot if he stands and fights with the Chinese though. It really depends a little on how your opponent responds to an all-out China assault.
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

This are the HRs:
Generally, if it’s gamey, don’t do it.

1. Blackhorse’s house rules to enforce "Original Intent" for PP’s to transfer LCU’s:
a. Restricted LCUs may transfer to any on-map Corps, Army or Command HQs (only).
b. HQs may not be reassigned from an unrestricted Command HQ chain-of-command to a restricted Command HQ chain-of-command.
c. Engineer-type units, including base forces, can be assigned to any on-map HQs
d.Thai forces can leave Thailand for any purposes to max 4 hexes from the Thai border. Same for Indian troops within 4 hexes of Indian border.

2. No strategic bombing before 1944 against targets in China/Manchuria.

3. Stratosphere Sweep... as suggested by TheElf: "Simply: no fighter sweeps higher then the ALT with the second best MVR value" He later states that there is no need to limit CAP "target" or "patrol" altitude for various reasons.

4. Turn 1: Allies may not change existing default CAP units. No TFs may be created anywhere. TFs already in existence, may be moved (e.g., Force Z). Japan will not hunt down US CV TF's on turn 1.

5. Limited 'expand to fit ship' functionality for IJNAF, USN, RN. Exception: USN CVE-R units.

Clarification on the intent of this one: The HR is intended to allow some expansion to fit carriers for existing organic airgroups or airgroups added to carriers without organic airgroups, while side-stepping the gameyness of having bajillions of IJNAF or USNAF pilots in training squadrons.

Common sense: If you're going to use it for scouting / fighting, you can expand it to use to fit the carrier in question. CVE-Rs, for their rather unique role, don't fit this mold well and should be allowed their oddly outsized replacement mission, IMO.


7. No strategic bombing for 1 month from the start of the May ’42 scenario.

I will actually renegotiate some of them. The limitation of strategic bombinig in china until he is able to use china as a base is unfair. Either both sides or no one!
I also hope to convince him that outside Japan, only HI and Raffineries are allowed to be bombed. While bombing industry makes sense, I haven't heard of the allies bombing oil fields in Asia, which aren't that a good target anway. Ressources on the other hand also represent mines, Kautschouk plantations or even wild Kautschoul trees in the jungle. Explain me how to bomb them...

About Russia, I am going to propose:
- Only allied planes from their respective base forces. So only British planes from a British BF, and only 40 planes when the BF has 40 Support as well. The same, of course, for every other allied nation. A HR, that makes sense for India as well, I think (though I won't propose it here)
- He must leave all ships in port after activation to allow me a surprise attack
- His bombers have to be set on training while his fighters are allowed to fly 10% CAP, not more.
This of course only for the first turn of the war, Russia is to be activated before the war.
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Mike Solli »

ORIGINAL: Historiker
What is it with you guys and attacking the Russians?
I'm German... [;)]

[:D]
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by obvert »

It might be tough for you to renegotiate strategic bombing in China. Also, he can bomb many of your Chinese bases from Ledo with B-24s, and with a lot more punch, so any economic gains you achieve there won't be useful in the long run. You'll make that up if Russia works, but it could mean you run a supply shortage yourself trying to fight on both of these fronts if indeed he does target your industry.
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

ORIGINAL: obvert

It might be tough for you to renegotiate strategic bombing in China. Also, he can bomb many of your Chinese bases from Ledo with B-24s, and with a lot more punch, so any economic gains you achieve there won't be useful in the long run. You'll make that up if Russia works, but it could mean you run a supply shortage yourself trying to fight on both of these fronts if indeed he does target your industry.
Mike is a good friend and someone to reason with. He will defenitly understand how unfair it would be to take away the advantage of strategic bombing from the Japanese while using it later himself. So I doubt he won't agree.
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Historiker
I don't like that approach most have to either (try to) gulp too much (Australia or India) or to be pessemistic and simply dig in after occupying the SRA.

Look at Ceylon. An aggressive invasion here can destroy a good number of his troops in situ. Destroy is the operative word here. This is why a Ceylon invasion rates higher than an Indian or Australian invasion wherein Allied forces can withdraw.

Go to Ceylon and kill some high value targets. Occupy it for as long as you believe practical and then-under cover-withdraw in a manner that suits your needs.

Russia is biting off more than you can chew, IMO. Russia *after* China's conquest? Allows far too much time for Russian buildup.
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Historiker
I don't like that approach most have to either (try to) gulp too much (Australia or India) or to be pessemistic and simply dig in after occupying the SRA.

Look at Ceylon. An aggressive invasion here can destroy a good number of his troops in situ. Destroy is the operative word here. This is why a Ceylon invasion rates higher than an Indian or Australian invasion wherein Allied forces can withdraw.

Go to Ceylon and kill some high value targets. Occupy it for as long as you believe practical and then-under cover-withdraw in a manner that suits your needs.

Russia is biting off more than you can chew, IMO. Russia *after* China's conquest? Allows far too much time for Russian buildup.
How much is there to be destroyed? 200 squads? 300 maybe? He'll most likely fly out significant portions as soon as he realizes that I came with sufficant forces.



I think one of the big problems might be, that starting in 5/42 already gives you everything you usually fight for. By fighting for it, some options open and the Jap player exploits them.
By starting with all that, I somewhat lack a purpose.

So basically, I have to decide - and decide fast - what to do:
- I can either dig in on the historic defensive perimeter and use the time to expand the defensive options. In fact, I don't need more to defend the empire! Darwin propably, but that's it!
- I can try to "win", meaning to create a position that doesn't only delay the inevitable, but changes the total outcome! This means most likely: Russia!
- I can "have fun", propably try something new which hasn't been done by anyone before. What about Pearl Harbor, Alaska and then the West Coast?
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

I know, I'm mostly blabbering around, but is there anyone left to read what I write? [;)]

like princep wrote:
So, after 4 pages of chatter, threats, maps, lines drawn, and changed, we at last approach the point of doing all those foul deeds and actually blowning something up.
I permanently redraw the lines which might be very boring for readers. So who's left of the initial "subscribers"?


East Australia?
(and the "lines drawn and changed" continues... [;)])
Alfred's postings made me think and I did a couple of tests with Shokaku, Zuikaku and Shoho, whether I can create a firestorm that destroys Sydney's repair shipyard. Unfortunately, it didn't work. In about a dozend attacks on both or either the repair shipyard and the manpower, I was able to start fires with my Kates and Vals, but all factories retained their size.
THe idea to take out the only allied shipyard between pearl harbor and colombo that is able to repair anything bigger than a cruiser below 10.000ts is VERY tempting. Yes, he gets those huge ARDs later (I want some, too! [:(] ), but this means that BBs and CVs neither can be fully repaired, nore upgraded between PH and Colombo. THAT would be a tempting target. Even if it is impossible to destroy it permanently, I could either occupy it (less good idea as it triggers the reinforcements), or bomb it to dust until he gives up repairing it.

So while my invasion of Darwin is still coming, it might actually become interesting to invade the Australian East coast for two reasons:
- deny it to him
- start a strategic bombing campaign

While I don't play for points, a strategic bombing campaign has some significant benefits:
- I occupy his forces
- I keep the initiative
- I reduce his ability to feed Australia all by itself, which means he'll have to increase the shipping to supply it.
- I get points that might reduce the chance of HIS autovictory in 1944 and later.

Is there any way to increas my chances to permanently destroy the repair shipyards in australia (which is possible according to Alfred)?

There are also a few side effects of a campaign in East Australia:
- PM and the whole area is relatifly save for the time being
- I can destroy all australian forces north of my planned landing point at Maryborough
- I force him to spend his squad reinforcemtns into restriced units instead of free offensive ones.

Units available:
- 53rd Division (invading PM in a few turns)
- South Seas Detachment (invading PM in a few turns)
- 16th Division
- 48th Division

the 38th Division will participate in the Darwin invasion, but will have to remain there to secure northern Australia for now, I guess.

The downside:
Should I do this, not only assets that might help in China are used elsewhere (while suffering losses they wouldn't have in China), I'd also need at least the four mentioned divisions to secure the Brisbane-Toowcomba-Line. Those four divisions can't help in china, can't help defend the pacific, can't help in the DEI and in Burma.


Operation Ōyama Iwao
I am almost convinced now, to do Operation Ōyama Iwao, the invasion of Russia. The only precondition to that is, that Japan can succeed in China. To guarantee that, I make sure that every garrison is filled with useless troops not wasting any point of AV without need. I also send several tank units to China, in combination with two additional divisions. The 18th Division marched from Lashio to Paoshan and should arrive there next turn. She'll hopefully be enough against that two small chinese units there.

The descision to invade russia has several reasons:
- It will help my economy
- It will prevent the russian attack in 45
- It will be fun while having strategic reasons
- It will finally make this AAR really interesting and grant me the attention I desperatly seek [;)]

Again: The precvondition is to be able to free enough troops in China in mid 43. I plan to have about 5 divisions in the Vladivostok area, purely for defense. Three Divisions will cut the railroad at Khabarovks while I hope to be able to throw at least 15k AV into the northern offensive.
The units for that operation will manly have to come from China. I'll also think about evacuation the Australian East Coast before, especially after the Strategic bombing campaign is completed.


Another side show:
I think I'll invade Midway in about 4 months. From there, I'll take the two tiny atolls en route to Pearl Harbor to make him expect a naval invasion of PH. Using that bases, I'll try how night attacks with Emilys work against the port of PH! 4 250kg bombs aren't very much, but I think its worth a try, isn't it?
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by JocMeister »

I think its too late to invade Eastern Oz. All Oz divisions are upgraded and a select few will be at full TOE. 4-5 Divisions will not be enough if he fortified and dug in. I think you would have a hard time staying unless you just plan to invade, destroy and then withdraw? Any intel on the unrestriced OZ divisions? If they are on the East Coast it could be a world of hurt for you. They are really powerful!

Then again I´m no expert :)

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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

I think you would have a hard time staying unless you just plan to invade, destroy and then withdraw?
This would be the plan!

1. Take New Caledonia
2. Para drop on Maryborough if undefended
3. Land unprepared forces in Maryborough
4. Advance to Brisbane
5. Establish defensive positions at Brisbane and Toowcomba
6. While strat bombing some units march north again to kill hopefully every unit along the coast.

When the strat bombing is done, I'd retreat as soon as it is necessary. So if he doesn't press me, I'd continue the strat. bombing with the hope to destroy some Repair shipyard points. If he presses hard, I'd evacuate the coast.
If the landings suceed, I have destroyed a buch of forces and weakend the Australian supply base for the rest of the war, as I don't expect USS America to ship in millions of supplies to repair every ressource, HI and LI I was able to kill.
So all together only a "raid" with an expected duration of about 3-6 months.

Thanks to my naval supremacy, he won't be able to land north of my positions and encircle the units at the Brisbane Toowcomba defensive positions. I might even retreat north once everything is destroyed to get a shot at the industry and ressources of the bases I occupied before.

In this scenario, the only units already upgraded to AIF42 are the three brigades of the 7th Australian division and a brigade at Darwin. Two more are upgraded, but on Ceylon.
Also, not to forget, he has recently lost about a Division, AFAIK, with me intercepting his convoy.
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Historiker
but is there anyone left to read what I write? [;)]

Yes. Still here.

I look forward to reading your successful exploits against Russia, Darwin and Eastern Australia. If you (scenario 1, I assume) are successful it will be a major victory, particularly from a 5/42 start.
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Historiker
but is there anyone left to read what I write? [;)]

Yes. Still here.

I look forward to reading your successful exploits against Russia, Darwin and Eastern Australia. If you (scenario 1, I assume) are successful it will be a major victory, particularly from a 5/42 start.
thank you [:)]

It is comparable with scen 1, though with a few exceptions:
Shinano is a Taiho-Class and I got 5 additional PA groups which will help in sea lanes surveillence and might be used to bomb PH or other deep penetration attacks at night.

As said: it won't make sense to open another front if I haven't ended the combat in China. So my attack on Russia is far from certain.
At least USS America agreed to my proposed HR about Russia, that allied planes are only allowed to fly from bases that have an equal amount of aviation support of the air group's nation.
So when I force him to shift his airgroups to another base, they must stand down until there's enough aviation support of the same nation in that base, again.
This should reduce the threat by US 4Es significantly.
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by JocMeister »

Gah, I just realised you are not playing Scenario 1/2. Somewhat embarrassing! [:D]

So disregard my previous comment about Oz. I have absolutly no clue what your scenario does!
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Historiker
At least USS America agreed to my proposed HR about Russia, that allied planes are only allowed to fly from bases that have an equal amount of aviation support of the air group's nation.
So when I force him to shift his airgroups to another base, they must stand down until there's enough aviation support of the same nation in that base, again.
This should reduce the threat by US 4Es significantly.

Will you use that rule for a game when you play Allies? [:D]
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RE: Historiker (J) vs. USS America (A) - no USS America

Post by Historiker »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Historiker
At least USS America agreed to my proposed HR about Russia, that allied planes are only allowed to fly from bases that have an equal amount of aviation support of the air group's nation.
So when I force him to shift his airgroups to another base, they must stand down until there's enough aviation support of the same nation in that base, again.
This should reduce the threat by US 4Es significantly.

Will you use that rule for a game when you play Allies? [:D]
[:D]
That's open for negotiations... [;)]

Yes, we can add this rule to our game. But somehow stupid to explain in length how I think Russia can be defeated, knowing that you are tempted by the idea to attack Russia while starting a PBEM against me right now... [X(]
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