Operation Barbarossa

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: rogo727

And don't forget the white bread division....

Warspite1

Que?

[SLAAKMAN]

Only in a marginal way. I am ready for the attacks this will bring, but here goes. The Soviet Union defeated Germany. Utterly and completely.

This is a common fallacy being propagated by historians with Marxist biases. Without US & British air supremacy, Axis oil production would have sustained a stalemate on the Russian front. Point being no belligerent could have beaten the Axis all alone & nobody did. The war was a team effort from beginning to end.
[:'(]

[nate25]

+1, Slaak. It's a real shame that's true.

[rodney727]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: rogo727

And don't forget the white bread division....

Warspite1

Que?

W1
I'm at work I think it was the the 49th infantry division they where fed white bread because they had sensitive stomachs. I will report back when I get of work.

[sullafelix]

You also have to add in not only how many trucks or jeeps that were delivered to Russia but also how many train engines etc..

Every piece of equipment that came form the Western powers would have had to be made by the Russians. Not having to do that left them free to concentrate on armaments.

The other production point that has not come up is that Germany was still on a peace time economy until Jan.-feb. 1943.

Look at Germany's production of armaments in 1944 and then imagine the same output for 42-43 or earlier.

Kursk could well have turned into a victory or stalemate if the divisions that were pulled from the Russian front were not sent to Italy.

[SLAAKMAN]

You also have to add in not only how many trucks or jeeps that were delivered to Russia but also how many train engines etc..

The soviets were supplied with 2000 locomotives as well;

As the war progressed, most of the Allied nations proved capable of manufacturing sufficient frontline weapons for their troops, however this led to a drastic reduction in the production other needed items. Materials from Lend-Lease filled this void in the form of munitions, food, transport aircraft, trucks, and rolling stock. The Red Army in particular took advantage of the program and by war's end approximately two-thirds of its trucks were American-built Dodges and Studebakers. Also, the Soviets received around 2,000 locomotivesfor supplying its forces at the front.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/ind ... se-act.htm

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Edit: can't spell [8|]

Nate will never let you live this down. [:D]

And Steiner, at my age I ALWAYS need a nap! [>:][:D]

I could not care less about the discussion. I MUST know what warspite1 mistyped. Does anyone have proof of a mistake he made??? There will be a great reward for such information.

[nate25]

All right, now this is ridiculous.

The posts here make too much sense.

There is no way the Huns could have done this well. No way.

Stop it. I'll give you guys another 1393 posts and that's IT.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: nate25

All right, now this is ridiculous.

The posts here make too much sense.

There is no way the Huns could have done this well. No way.

Stop it. I'll give you guys another 1393 posts and that's IT.

I would never, NEVER make shameless posts just to artificially increase my post count.

Shame, shame nate25.

[nate25]

Parusski, all I can say is, I learned from the best. YOU.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: nate25

Parusski, all I can say is, I learned from the best. YOU.

Thanks, I was counting on you.

[rodney727]

70th Infantry Division
Nicknamed the "white Bread Division" because most of its 7500 soldiers had stomach problems and required special diets, this static division was mustered in on Walcheren Island Holland, on July 17.1944. Cadres of the 165th Reserve Division were also transferred to the division, along with the division were also transferred to the divison, along with the divisional staff, 5th reserve Artillery Regiment. The grenadier battalionss of the 70th were former security battalions. In November 1944 it was attacked by the 1st Canadian Army. The ailing soldiers fought well as it took Montgomery's vetern forces nine days to defeat them.

[fvianello]

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Only in a marginal way. I am ready for the attacks this will bring, but here goes. The Soviet Union defeated Germany. Utterly and completely.

This is a common fallacy being propagated by historians with Marxist biases. Without US & British air supremacy, Axis oil production would have sustained a stalemate on the Russian front. Point being no belligerent could have beaten the Axis all alone & nobody did. The war was a team effort from beginning to end.
[:'(]

Ohhhh come on! The Marxist historians know too well that the German army was already in deeeeep sh*t in December 1941. Not a single british bomb had been dropped on oil fields yet and USA was not even at war.

[rodney727]

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Only in a marginal way. I am ready for the attacks this will bring, but here goes. The Soviet Union defeated Germany. Utterly and completely.

This is a common fallacy being propagated by historians with Marxist biases. Without US & British air supremacy, Axis oil production would have sustained a stalemate on the Russian front. Point being no belligerent could have beaten the Axis all alone & nobody did. The war was a team effort from beginning to end.
[:'(]

Ohhhh come on! The Marxist historians know too well that the German army was already in deeeeep sh*t in December 1941. Not a single british bomb had been dropped on oil fields yet and USA was not even at war.

I wouldn't say they where in deep dung in winter 41. The war in the east was anything but finished. Your going to have to do much better than that to be taken seriously my Italian friend. Now replace German with the word Italian and your statement is true.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: HanBarca

ORIGINAL: SLAAKMAN

Only in a marginal way. I am ready for the attacks this will bring, but here goes. The Soviet Union defeated Germany. Utterly and completely.

This is a common fallacy being propagated by historians with Marxist biases. Without US & British air supremacy, Axis oil production would have sustained a stalemate on the Russian front. Point being no belligerent could have beaten the Axis all alone & nobody did. The war was a team effort from beginning to end.
[:'(]

Ohhhh come on! The Marxist historians know too well that the German army was already in deeeeep sh*t in December 1941. Not a single british bomb had been dropped on oil fields yet and USA was not even at war.

You stated it better than I did. The Germans were screwed by Hitler's diversion from a direct assault on Moscow, to the Kiev operations. The Russians were beginning to launch coordinated and determined attacks during these weeks. Between June 22, 1941 and December 31, 1941 Germany suffered about 200,000 dead/missing and 590,000 wounded!! IN 28 weeks the Germans suffered 790,000 casualties. That was before ANY real western aid reached Russia. Furthermore, this was a casualty rate of about 20%. It is not disrespectful to America or England to say Russia beat the Germans. The United States destroyed the Japanese and it would be a similar false argument to say, that without the Russian declaration of war on Japan, America could not have won that war. So why do Westerners feel the need to insist Russia could not go it alone? I have never understood this fear of admitting the West won the Pacific and Russia beat Germany.

And b4 anyone smashes me let me give the required statement: America is the greatest country in the world(for the moment). Hey, everyone in the world wants to come here, so it can't be too bad.

[rodney727]

I see that you were just playing with me nd that's just fine. Your opinion is just that an opinion that almost defies all logic. And if logic dictates reason then the only conclusion can be without the west, Germany wouldn't have been defeated. Take US and the Uk out and you have a statement . Back and forth. You post I post. Let's find some common ground,
Exit stage............right

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: rogo727

I see that you were just playing with me nd that's just fine. Your opinion is just that an opinion that almost defies all logic. And if logic dictates reason then the only conclusion can be without the west, Germany wouldn't have been defeated. Take US and the Uk out and you have a statement . Back and forth. You post I post. Let's find some common ground,
Exit stage............right

Not fair to say I was playing with you. I did more reading and thinking on the topic today and saw no reason to alter my thoughts on this issue. My opinion and understanding of WW2 has changed dramatically, BUT SLOWLY, over a 10 year period.

I am not sure what I wrote defies logic, you might help me by clarifying.

Certain issues seem to get ignored during these discussions. First, the fact that Lend-Lease equipment did not arrive in large numbers until the second half of 42. By which point Germany was not going to win. Lend-lease may have hastened Germany's defeat, but that loss was going to happen.

As David Glantz says "Lend-Lease aid did not arrive in sufficient quantities to make a difference between defeat and victory in 1941-1942'', had Stalin and his commanders been left to their own devices, it "might have taken 12 to 18 months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht," but "the ultimate result would probably have been the same.

Ultimately I am not saying the West did not help, just that the assistance merely hastened the inevitable. Maybe I should posit that without the aid Russia might not have reached Berlin, fighting Germany to a standstill within the prewar borders. For Germany, this would have still been a defeat.

[rodney727]

Might have and probably would have are just educated guesses. The fact is we will never know. I don't see the soviets bombing Germany into submission. The fact is if Germany had no western front or africa I see them getting to Moscow and beyond. I also see the Japanese at some point attacking from the east. But without aid or a second front in Europe Massive bombing raids the soviets would be hard pressed to roll into belin.

[parusski]

But without aid or a second front in Europe Massive bombing raids the soviets would be hard pressed to roll into belin.

Yes, that is my point. The aid did make the difference in Russia rolling. I just contend Germany would have still lost or been fought to a standstill, maybe while in the Soviet Union. But no victory is a defeat for Germany.

Gotta go, later.

[rodney727]

Common ground. I concur.