War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Miller

He would have to be insane to seriously consider any sort of land invasion of the WC.........I mean come on, it may work against someone who has never played the game before but thats about it? Or am I missing something?

This can only be for four reasons:
- Victory Points
- Strategic Bombing
- defensible bases for raids deep into the allied SLOC
- diversion

[ckammp]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's the Line of Death reinforcements for the USA (from a test run by the intrepid Bullwinkle 1.5 years ago).  This includes a fairly stout number of fighter squadrons.  Does this suggest that triggering LOD reinforcements would be very counter-productive to a plan to engage in strategic bombing?  I think so.

VMD-1 arrives at San Diego
VMD-2 arrives at San Diego
VMF-123 arrives at San Diego
VMF-124 arrives at San Diego
VMSB-143 arrives at San Diego
VMSB-144 arrives at San Diego
VMO-151 arrives at Eastern USA
VMF-213 arrives at Pearl Harbor
VMF-214 arrives at Pearl Harbor
VMF-223 arrives at Pearl Harbor
VMF-224 arrives at Pearl Harbor
VMSB-233 arrives at Pearl Harbor
VMSB-234 arrives at Pearl Harbor
VMSB-242 arrives at Santa Barbara
VMSB-243 arrives at Santa Barbara
VMSB-244 arrives at San Diego
VP-61 arrives at Alameda
VP-62 arrives at Alameda
VS-6D14 arrives at Alameda
ZP-32 arrives at Alameda
No.118 Sqn RCAF arrives at Canada
No.132 Sqn RCAF arrives at Canada
No.133 Sqn RCAF arrives at Nelson
No.135 Sqn RCAF arrives at Canada
No.147 Sqn RCAF arrives at Vancouver
9th PS arrives at Spokane
71st OG/17th OS arrives at San Francisco
7th BG/9th BS arrives at San Francisco
7th BG/11th BS arrives at Aden
7th BG/22nd BS arrives at San Francisco
43rd BG/63rd BS arrives at Eastern USA
43rd BG/64th BS arrives at Eastern USA
43rd BG/65th BS arrives at Eastern USA
38th BG/69th BS arrives at Eastern USA
38th BG/70th BS arrives at Eastern USA
38th BG/71st BS arrives at Eastern USA
90th BG/319th BS arrives at Eastern USA
90th BG/320th BS arrives at Eastern USA
90th BG/321st BS arrives at Eastern USA
307th BG/370th BS arrives at Spokane
307th BG/371st BS arrives at Spokane
307th BG/372nd BS arrives at Spokane
308th BG/373rd BS arrives at Boise
308th BG/374th BS arrives at Boise
308th BG/375th BS arrives at Boise
90th BG/400th BS arrives at Eastern USA
43rd BG/403rd BS arrives at Eastern USA
28th CG/404th BS arrives at Eastern USA
38th BG/405th BS arrives at Eastern USA
307th BG/35th RS arrives at Spokane
308th BG/36th RS arrives at Boise
341st BG/490th BS arrives at Aden
341st BG/491st BS arrives at Karachi
301st BG/32nd BS arrives at Mojave
301st BG/352nd BS arrives at Mojave
301st BG/353rd BS arrives at Mojave
301st BG/419th BS arrives at Mojave
301st BG/BS (Comp) arrives at Mojave
303rd BG/358th BS arrives at Mojave
303rd BG/359th BS arrives at Mojave
303rd BG/360th BS arrives at Mojave
303rd BG/427th BS arrives at Mojave
303rd BG/BS (Comp) arrives at Mojave
7th BG/9th BS Det arrives at San Francisco
7th BG/88th RS Det arrives at San Francisco
23rd FG/74th FS arrives at Aden
23rd FG/75th FS arrives at Aden
23rd FG/76th FS arrives at Aden
328th FG/326th FS arrives at San Francisco
328th FG/327th FS arrives at San Francisco
328th FG/329th FS arrives at San Francisco
329th FG/330th FS arrives at San Francisco
329th FG/331st FS arrives at San Francisco
18th FG/333rd FS arrives at Pearl Harbor
55th FG/338th FS arrives at Portland
329th FG/332nd FS arrives at San Francisco
374th TCG/6th TCS arrives at Eastern USA
13th TCS arrives at Eastern USA
22nd TS arrives at Melbourne
42nd TCS arrives at Anchorage
1st FeG/3rd FeS arrives at Aden
1st FeG/6th FeS arrives at Aden
1st FeG/13th FeS arrives at Aden
7th BG/Hq Sqn arrives at San Francisco
307th BG/Hq Sqn arrives at Spokane
308th BG/Hq Sqn arrives at Boise
301st BG/Hq Sqn arrives at Mojave
303rd BG/Hq sqn arrives at Mojave
23rd FG/Hq Sqn arrives at Aden
35th PG/Hq Sqn arrives at San Francisco
II USA Armored Corps arrives at San Luis Obispo
II USA Corps arrives at Salt Lake City
2nd Armored Division arrives at Salt Lake City
4th Motorized Division arrives at Salt Lake City
8th Motorized Division arrives at Salt Lake City
36th Infantry Division arrives at Salt Lake City
Provisional Tank Brigade arrives at Mojave
2nd Army Tank Brigade arrives at Canada
Invasion Mobilstn Supply Convoy arrives at Salt Lake City

Unless the LOD air unit reinforcements arrive fully filled out, the list is very misleading.

VMD-1, for example, is scheduled to arrive at San Diego on 420401, but with only 2 damaged SNJ-3 Texans and with a morale of 35. The other units on the list arrive in similar states.

Of course, if they do arrive fully filled out, then any thoughts of strat bombing by Japan are pure folly.

[JohnDillworth]

Well, it is 2012. Times have changed. I think if you feel it is the right time to make a major lifestyle announcement then you should just do it! I will support you and I am sure 1 or 2 others will too.

OK, you smoked me out......Here it goes.......Next time I am playing as the Japanese.
There, I said it

[JohnDillworth]

Something else to share with you guys.

One of the thrills of the game is the unknown - playing an opponent you don't know; the vast number of possiblities and uncertainties; and the excitement and challenge when facing a big attack and/or an enemy auto victory. We don't get these experiences often, so treasure each one!

I am not privy to any outside inforamtion regarding PH. I haven't ever read his AARs. I'm not doing so now. I'm not getting any input via PM nor do I want any (though I still appreciate the occasional good suggestions posted in this AAR). IE, I'm pretty much in the dark about PH, although I do know he'x experienced, capable, and a ally of Nemo. That gives me some information and insight.

So, as you can see, I'm enjoying myself immensely even as I'm dealing with the stress of the unknown and the dread possiblity of failing miserably and very publicly.

And still you play a "CR" game. Different places, different strategy, but you get a piece of him here and there. Your CA's have been doing OK, his, not so much, the Hermes got a few AK's, you turned back the Timor invasion for a week, jammed him up at Clark Field, surprised him in Alaska and got a chunk out a Division in China. You can't win anything this early, but you can slow him down just a bit. PH is good and he studied you. This is going to be a good game

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Miller

He would have to be insane to seriously consider any sort of land invasion of the WC.........I mean come on, it may work against someone who has never played the game before but thats about it? Or am I missing something?

you aren't missing anything. If he really does, then this is one of the games that ends due to the Japanese player having gone nuts and ruined the game by doing so. But I doubt he will go for the WC, I am sure there will be many more discussions about "tactical use of game features" though.

[Canoerebel]

An invasion of continental USA is very unlikely, but there have been discussions by some very bright people about how it would be done if somebody were going to try to do it.  I just found and read the discussion last night.  It was done 1.5 years ago in Bullwinkle's "Emergency Reinforcements-WC" thread.  The discussion centers on the method we've been mulling over in here (LA and SD followed by strategic bombing).  These very bright players did not dismiss such a gambit as absolutely impossible, so they got my full attention.
 
At the same time, there is no downside to Japan invading Coal Harbor and even Vancouver to implement a strategic bombing campaign.  Such a campaign might harvest a heckuva lot of victory points to help achieve an auto victory.  IN saying "there is no downside," I mean no direct penalties imposed.  Of course, if Japaan is focused on NoPac she may lose opportunities elsewhere, or at least take some of the heat off elsewhere.  That's why it would be incumbent on the Japanese player to move fast to take control in the DEI and Philippines.  Steve has done that and is in decent shape there.
 
My guess is that he's implementing that strategy, though I'll keep my eyes open at San Diego and Los Angeles.

[AcePylut]

I would posit that had the Japanese invaded Alaska, Juneau, the allies would throw everything they have at defending the west coast. I think any commander that was pushing his 4 CV's around a bunch of nameless atolls 10000 miles away in the South Pac, while the US nation was going paranoid over IJN WC invasion, would have been fired immediately and any politician would be tarred and feathered

Something to think about - if you're going to play it "semi-historically" then everything the US has should be going to Canada, Alaska, and the North Pac. I doubt "lookie me over here raidin' Truk with my 2 CV's while my fellow citizens in Juneau are under IJN rule" would fly very well with the US populace, all things considered.

You and PH are both pretty honorable folks - adding a "how would the home islands folks or the US populace react to *this*" sort of game-play component might be worth discussing with PH

After all, does it really matter? We know how the war is going to end - Japan's going to be a charred hulk of an island cuz you are going to use nukes, right?

[Canoerebel]

I would throw everything into defending the West Coast if I had the ability to throw everything I had into defending the West Coast.  Since the game doesn't permit me to call up the reserves and call on the units posted in the east to the West Coast, I don't have that luxury. Since I can't react historically, I am not going to exacerbate my woes by being stupid and feeding my carriers into a trap. 

[Cap Mandrake]

If the Empire of Japan had been marching down the Pacific coast of Canada toward the US there would have been no "Europe First" strategy.

There would be no Torch landings. Most of the Atlantic Fleet would now be queued up to pass throught Panama Canal and by mid '42 Bozeman, Montana would be HQ of the 8th Air Force.[:)]

There also aren't enough bases and dot hexes. The absence of dot hexes in BC makes it easier to defend...especially the IJA.


Can someone explain to me if strat bombing alone triggers the LOD reinforcements?

[Historiker]

it doesn't, neither does naval bombardement.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I would posit that had the Japanese invaded Alaska, Juneau, the allies would throw everything they have at defending the west coast. I think any commander that was pushing his 4 CV's around a bunch of nameless atolls 10000 miles away in the South Pac, while the US nation was going paranoid over IJN WC invasion, would have been fired immediately and any politician would be tarred and feathered

Something to think about - if you're going to play it "semi-historically" then everything the US has should be going to Canada, Alaska, and the North Pac. I doubt "lookie me over here raidin' Truk with my 2 CV's while my fellow citizens in Juneau are under IJN rule" would fly very well with the US populace, all things considered.

You and PH are both pretty honorable folks - adding a "how would the home islands folks or the US populace react to *this*" sort of game-play component might be worth discussing with PH

After all, does it really matter? We know how the war is going to end - Japan's going to be a charred hulk of an island cuz you are going to use nukes, right?

The historical political perspective goes out the window with scenario #2 .. the orginal Europe first strategy is based on a relatively weak Japan .. Japan was read for a strategy of securing the DEI and a defense thus something to be dealt with, but Hitler had showed a propensity to conquor the world and was doing so ... Now Japan is a strong threat to the United States as such the forces in capable hands are demonstrating the ability to be as threating as that guy with the funny mustache...

As a side note . I think scenrario #2 should have a intermediary trigger of no withdrawls before the LOD reinforcements .. I am not sure if that line is juneau or sika but I think it should be there as a subsequent risk of bold moves .. India and Oz might well have lines that the stuff in theater is going to stay if certain lines are crossed. I think the game would be even more interesting of those lines were random within context... known to nobody ..thus Japan does not know the point where they become public enemy #1 and have to constantly think about that risk ...

Anyway back to the game ..

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

it doesn't, neither does naval bombardement.

Correct. Although one should pay careful attention to the "narrow strait" rules when considering bombardments in the NW portion of North America.

[Cribtop]

Cool idea, Crackaces.

[JohnDillworth]

Cool idea, Crackaces.

+1
I really like the random factor. Combine that with something like the Russian intervention. cross a certain point, and there is a % chance of reinforcements being triggered. Good point on the Atlantic fleet too. Once the Continental US is threatened, the Atlantic fleet is in play

[Canoerebel]

1/5/42
 
NoPac:  Juneau finally falls and a major part of the KB is one hex NW of Coal Harbor, which has a defensive AV of 94.  Lots of enemy shipping scattered around the Gulf of Alaska.  It looks more and more like the main move is to set up a strategic bombing platform along the Canadian coast.  While I'm still attending to distribution of forces in So Cal "just in case," my main effort is to distribute ground troops in Canada and the American northwest (to ward off any para attacks meant to isolate the big cities).  I also went ahead and orderd all So Cal AA units to head north.  The AA units at SF are set to Strat mode so that they can quickly redeploy.
 
West Coast:  SSX attack at San Diego damages a TK.
 
CenPac:  Two American combat TFs have penetrated pretty far - one between Truk and Rabaul and the other between Truk and Wake.  The latter will make for Babeldaob in hopes of catching the enemy with their pants down.  Both of these TFs are "expendable" - ie, I realize they could be wiped out, so I had to determine if I was willing to take that risk.  Oilers are trailing far to the rear and have also escaped detection. Saratoga is loitering east of Tarawa, unlikely to raid unless I get firm reports on the location of the KB and Mini KBs.  Yorktown is on patrol well to the east of Pearl Harbor while I decide where she and Sara will ultimately go.
 
Eastern DEI:  Enemy invasion at Bathhurst Island, just off Darwin.  The enemy is showing much more interest in locations that are significant to western Oz than he is to loctions that would be significant to eastern Oz (that can change quickly) or India (that takes more time to orchestrate).
 
Western DEI:  Tepid enemy attention to Sumatra and slow-developing attention towards Singapore.
 
India:  Several USA ground units will be arriving at Capetown in about three weeks.  Under the current conditions, these should make India before the enemy could move their in strength, assuming Steve utilizes a reasonably sane approach of wanting the KB present and to possibly take preliminary bases like Port Blair and Diego Garcia.
 
Burma:  Steve is working some angles up here, but I don't think he has enough yet to really unhinge the Allies.
 
China:  All the attention is in the northern sector at the moment.  If Steve brings together enough of his thus-far separate elements, the Allies will have to pull back fron Nanning (or N-something) into the forest east and north (true) of Sian.  That's the usual MLR and the Chinese have their armies in decent position to man it.

[Canoerebel]

I should let the Peanut Gallery know that in a couple of days my family and I will be off on a three-week camping trip ending at the end of May or first of June. 
 
This is an epic journey that will take us dedicated rebels to the Pacific Ocean - a first for all of us.  Major national park/monument stops include Canyon de Chelly, Natural Bridges, Capital Reef, Bryce Canyon, Grand Canyon, Death Valley, Seqoia, Golden Gate Bridge, Muir Woods, Yosemite, Great Basin, Arches, Rocky Mountain, and the Gateway Arch in St. Louis.  That's alot to do in three weeks, but the camping converts what otherwise might seem a hectic schedule into a more relaxed and cordial one.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I should let the Peanut Gallery know that in a couple of days my family and I will be off on a three-week camping trip ending at the end of May or first of June. 

This is an epic journey that will take us dedicated rebels to the Pacific Ocean - a first for all of us.  Major national park/monument stops include Canyon de Chelly, Natural Bridges, Capital Reef, Bryce Canyon, Grand Canyon, Death Valley, Seqoia, Golden Gate Bridge, Muir Woods, Yosemite, Great Basin, Arches, Rocky Mountain, and the Gateway Arch in St. Louis.  That's alot to do in three weeks, but the camping converts what otherwise might seem a hectic schedule into a more relaxed and cordial one.

I want to do the "Great Western Trip" as well; how hard is it to arrange all the camping reservations? I also need 3 weeks off, which is another problem......

[Canoerebel]

When we did a different "Great Western Trip" two years ago, we only had reservations for one night on the entire trip.  This time we don't have any reservations at all.  You can usually get a place by arriving early in the day. Also, Sunday nights and early in the week usually isn't a problem.  We did have two problems two years ago - on Memorial Day weekend we paid through the nose at one hotel (after six nights in a tent, it was worth it) and another time we slept in our car.  So, two out of 21 nights were not optimal, but the flexibility we had by not making reservations made it all worthwhile IMO.  Reservations create subtle pressure and stress to "keep to the schedule." 
 
So, we just have a pretty good idea of what day it is, what park we're going to, and whether there are less-well-known Forest Service or State Park campgrounds that might serve as alternatives.

[BBfanboy]

Or you could just use "Occupy" posters to justify camping anywhere you please! Why not occupy San Diego naval base!

[Cribtop]

You will enjoy the trip. My wife won't camp, but oddly will hike 14 miles a day so long as we stay in a lodge at night. Weird combo.

Be warned - the Pacific Ocean is awesome but can be chilly!