How good are you P-51Ds

[Chris21wen]

Subject says it all. 17 June 1945 and I've lost 493(1106) in air to air. Compare this to the P-47D25 of 339(674) and the P-47N of 26(336). Total used in brackets.

[ADB123]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Subject says it all. 17 June 1945 and I've lost 493(1106) in air to air. Compare this to the P-47D25 of 339(674) and the P-47N of 26(336). Total used in brackets.

Have you been using them as escorts for bombers, on sweeps, or on CAP?

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: ADB123

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Subject says it all. 17 June 1945 and I've lost 493(1106) in air to air. Compare this to the P-47D25 of 339(674) and the P-47N of 26(336). Total used in brackets.

Have you been using them as escorts for bombers, on sweeps, or on CAP?

Mixture but mainly escort with a few sweeps. Cap is normally set in none frontline bases. I use these setting with the P-47s as well.

[KenchiSulla]

P47 is very robust so it doesn't suprise me that you lost fewer. In general planes on escort duty are limited in the ability to survive. How many aircraft did you shoot down for those losses?

[jmalter]

i'm a Jug fan, too! based on my experience w/ the Downfall scenario, they did better than the Mustangs.

a quick look in tracker a/c comparison shows the P-47 models w/ higher gun values & lower service ratings than the P-51s.

[Commander Stormwolf]

P-47 is moderately overrated

P-51 is moderately underrated

.. due to game code favouring max altitude, and Mvr has little effect

[AW1Steve]

I haven't heard anything about the quality of the pilots. As Manfort Von Richofen said, "it's not the crate, it's the man inside the crate". [:)]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I haven't heard anything about the quality of the pilots. As Manfort Von Richofen said, "it's not the crate, it's the man inside the crate". [:)]

Steve, you mean Manfred von Richthofen I guess, but Manfort von Richofen sounds cool too [;)]

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I haven't heard anything about the quality of the pilots. As Manfort Von Richofen said, "it's not the crate, it's the man inside the crate". [:)]

Steve, you mean Manfred von Richthofen I guess, but Manfort von Richofen sounds cool too [;)]

[:D]

[LowCommand]

I’m a real P47 and A1 Skyraider fan. The P47 was somewhat underappreciated during the war. It was king at very high altitude and on strafing missions. The P51D was a real glamor gal and gets all the love. It was everything the Air Force thought it wanted. It was fast, pretty, maneuverable, long ranged, and a dream to fly. Unfortunately much of this wasn’t very useful in the Pacific. Getting into a turning fight against a Zero or the later Japanese fighters was a quick death. They tried to build a P51 that could maneuver with a Zero, the F model. It had a magnesium main spar and only 4 50 cal to lighten it up. That wasn’t enough and the war ended anyway.

The P47 was the essence of an American fighter. There was nothing subtle about it. It was a big, ugly, extremely rugged way to get 8 50 cal guns into action. They flew through houses, telephone poles, and barrage balloon cables. It was king very high and very low (strafing missions.) In one famous incident a German Ace tried to shoot down a US Ace in a crippled P47. Only the German was out of cannon ammo. Despite hundreds of hits the P47 made it to England. The P47 was also famous for its screaming dives. The best tactic with it and the P38 (and P40 and…) was the Zoom and Boom. You got into a screaming power dive (out of the sun, if possible) shot up the target (the boom part) then zoomed back up for another pass. Chennault and the Flying Tigers were famous for this.

The emphasis on high speed fighting may explain why the P47N gets such good maneuver ratings in AE. With it, and all other US aircraft, speed was the essence of life. Keep you speed up, keep the fight high, and never, ever try to turn inside, never follow through more than a quarter loop. The N model was a big fat flying gas can with guns. In an ordinary dog fight it would be just a juicy target. However, using the paddle prop, late model higher powered engine, half full tanks and keeping you airspeed up, at 20 thousand… Well, it might be a good way to get some brave Japanese pilots to die for their Emperor.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: LowCommand

The P47 was the essence of an American fighter. There was nothing subtle about it. It was a big, ugly, extremely rugged way to get 8 50 cal guns into action. They flew through houses, telephone poles, and barrage balloon cables. It was king very high and very low (strafing missions.) In one famous incident a German Ace tried to shoot down a US Ace in a crippled P47. Only the German was out of cannon ammo. Despite hundreds of hits the P47 made it to England. The P47 was also famous for its screaming dives. The best tactic with it and the P38 (and P40 and…) was the Zoom and Boom. You got into a screaming power dive (out of the sun, if possible) shot up the target (the boom part) then zoomed back up for another pass. Chennault and the Flying Tigers were famous for this.

That was a friend of mine's older cousin (called him "Uncle Bob" on account of the age difference). He got to spend some time with him and hear stories first-hand. At least I got to read his book! [:D]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Johnson

[ADB123]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: ADB123

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Subject says it all. 17 June 1945 and I've lost 493(1106) in air to air. Compare this to the P-47D25 of 339(674) and the P-47N of 26(336). Total used in brackets.

Have you been using them as escorts for bombers, on sweeps, or on CAP?

Mixture but mainly escort with a few sweeps. Cap is normally set in none frontline bases. I use these setting with the P-47s as well.

Escort, and especially long range escort, is a wonderful way to lose fighter planes in this game. If you've been trying to use Mustangs in a semi-historical role as long range bomber escorts that would explain the difference.

Short range escort tends to work much, much better than long range escort (and you tend to get more of your bombers back too, which is always useful).

Good luck

[jmalter]

the P-47's air-cooled radial engine also gives it an advantage over the P-51's fluid-cooled V-motor. a minor hit on the Mustang's radiator could mean big probs - due to the radiator, a greater %age of its plan-form was vulnerable.

IRL, P-51s in the LR escort role suffered high losses from their bases at Iwo Jima.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
That was a friend of mine's older cousin (called him "Uncle Bob" on account of the age difference). He got to spend some time with him and hear stories first-hand. At least I got to read his book! [:D]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Johnson

Robert Johnson's book was the first adult book I read when I was 6.

Bill

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: LowCommand


I’m a real P47 and A1 Skyraider fan. The P47 was somewhat underappreciated during the war. It was king at very high altitude and on strafing missions. The P51D was a real glamor gal and gets all the love. It was everything the Air Force thought it wanted. It was fast, pretty, maneuverable, long ranged, and a dream to fly. Unfortunately much of this wasn’t very useful in the Pacific. Getting into a turning fight against a Zero or the later Japanese fighters was a quick death. They tried to build a P51 that could maneuver with a Zero, the F model. It had a magnesium main spar and only 4 50 cal to lighten it up. That wasn’t enough and the war ended anyway.

The P47 was the essence of an American fighter. There was nothing subtle about it. It was a big, ugly, extremely rugged way to get 8 50 cal guns into action. They flew through houses, telephone poles, and barrage balloon cables. It was king very high and very low (strafing missions.) In one famous incident a German Ace tried to shoot down a US Ace in a crippled P47. Only the German was out of cannon ammo. Despite hundreds of hits the P47 made it to England. The P47 was also famous for its screaming dives. The best tactic with it and the P38 (and P40 and…) was the Zoom and Boom. You got into a screaming power dive (out of the sun, if possible) shot up the target (the boom part) then zoomed back up for another pass. Chennault and the Flying Tigers were famous for this.

The emphasis on high speed fighting may explain why the P47N gets such good maneuver ratings in AE. With it, and all other US aircraft, speed was the essence of life. Keep you speed up, keep the fight high, and never, ever try to turn inside, never follow through more than a quarter loop. The N model was a big fat flying gas can with guns. In an ordinary dog fight it would be just a juicy target. However, using the paddle prop, late model higher powered engine, half full tanks and keeping you airspeed up, at 20 thousand… Well, it might be a good way to get some brave Japanese pilots to die for their Emperor.

The P-47 was a bit of an anomaly for a USAAF fighter. It was the only Army fighter built during the war with a radial engine. The common knowledge at the time was that liquid cooled engines were more appropriate for fighters (except naval fighters where the lower maintenance of the radials were easier to keep flying from a carrier).

The P-47 was a good fighter that could hold its own with Luftwaffe fighters. The 56th FG flew P-47s throughout the war, and were the top scoring group in the USAAF.

However, the P-51 had some critical advantages over the P-47 for the critical mission of the the 8th AF. The P-51 had much better range which allowed the 8th AF to take the fight to the where the Luftwaffe fighters were. The P-51 was also faster than the P-47, which gave it a bit more of an edge in combat.

William Dunn was an Eagle Squadron pilot who ended up flying most of the fighters the Western Allies used during the war. In his book, he addressed a question that he had been asked many times, which was: what was the best fighter. His answer was "it depends". He pointed out that different fighters were better for different roles. He found the Spitfire to be the most pleasant to fly, but it's short range made it of very limited usefulness as the war moved into the offensive. He thought the P-47 was the best fighter bomber of the war. He was a bit tepid about the P-51, but pointed out that if you needed range and dogfighting ability, it was the best fighter available.

Bill

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: ADB123

Escort, and especially long range escort, is a wonderful way to lose fighter planes in this game. If you've been trying to use Mustangs in a semi-historical role as long range bomber escorts that would explain the difference.

Short range escort tends to work much, much better than long range escort (and you tend to get more of your bombers back too, which is always useful).

Good luck

So for game purposes the P-51 should not be used for LR excort? How does it stack up if sent on LR Sweep?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: LowCommand


I’m a real P47 and A1 Skyraider fan. The P47 was somewhat underappreciated during the war. It was king at very high altitude and on strafing missions. The P51D was a real glamor gal and gets all the love. It was everything the Air Force thought it wanted. It was fast, pretty, maneuverable, long ranged, and a dream to fly. Unfortunately much of this wasn’t very useful in the Pacific. Getting into a turning fight against a Zero or the later Japanese fighters was a quick death. They tried to build a P51 that could maneuver with a Zero, the F model. It had a magnesium main spar and only 4 50 cal to lighten it up. That wasn’t enough and the war ended anyway.

Not so sure about this the XP51F was experimental and I don't think it was seriously considered. Mustang was a vertical energy fighter and had no need to turn with the zero. Engaging in a turning fight with a fighter that averaged 80 MPH less speed was something that only the greenest (or best pilots) would have considered.

I do agree in game terms that the P47 fighter is the best. Better guns, service rating and higher durability are the factors. Mustang is still better than most anything the Japanese side can offer up.

In real life you can't really compare two excellent but different fighters. Mustang had the greater range and by 1945 that was the most desirable asset that any Allied fighter could have. Otherwise both were very good aircraft.

[MarkMohrifield]

One rarely mentioned advantage of the P51 is that it was relatively cheap to produce.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I haven't heard anything about the quality of the pilots. As Manfort Von Richofen said, "it's not the crate, it's the man inside the crate". [:)]

Steve, you mean Manfred von Richthofen I guess, but Manfort von Richofen sounds cool too [;)]

I am a product (or victim!) of the American public education system. Sorry. My apologies to the Red Baron dude. [8|]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I haven't heard anything about the quality of the pilots. As Manfort Von Richofen said, "it's not the crate, it's the man inside the crate". [:)]

Steve, you mean Manfred von Richthofen I guess, but Manfort von Richofen sounds cool too [;)]

[:D]

Grafin, it's not ladylike to smirk! [:-] No matter how richly I deserve it! [:D]