LCU's support in non-base hex

[Yaab]

DaBigBabes A

Manual, page 182, about sharing support between LCUs in non-base hexes:
"Support is not shared if not in a friendly base hex."

I put two Chinese corps, 74th and 18th Chinese Corps, outside Changhsa. Both corps start with additional support squads over their respective TOEs ( TOE has 666 support squads, the corps have about 840 support squads each, with around 400 disabled). The 74th has more "fighting" squads to tend and the 18th has excess support that can be shared. They sit together in hex 81,51 and 74th Corps now uses the extra support squads from the 18th Corps! I don't think it is WAD.

There is no HQ unit in the hex.

[Atilla60]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

There is no HQ unit in the hex.

But the hex is within range of a HQ. You can see that by looking at the "Support Required" #.
It's displayed in green, meaning the # of squads, not present locally (i.e 447-419 = 28), is provided by a HQ.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Atilla60

ORIGINAL: Yaab

There is no HQ unit in the hex.

But the hex is within range of a HQ. You can see that by looking at the "Support Required" #.
It's displayed in green, meaning the # of squads, not present locally (i.e 447-419 = 28), is provided by a HQ.

I think Yaab is right, at least this looks like the screenshot contradicts the manual.

Support is only provided and shared by units in a specific hex. The range of HQs you are referring to, only applies for combat bonus, not for support.
So, with only 2 combat units in a nonbase hex, according to the manual they should not be able to access each others support.
But the screenshot suggests that they do.

Funny, I never knew that support was not supposed to be shared between units in non base hexes, you never stop learning...

[Dan Nichols]

?

[JWE]

There's no sharing going on, here. The 75th Chinese Corps has only the support that it has. It requires only the support it requires. The manual is correct. There is no sharing outside a friendly base hex.

[LoBaron]

Thanks John! Could you help me get this straight please?

It seems I have always read some numbers wrong. I always thought that the difference between
support and required support results in the support points 'borrowed' from another unit. If the required
support is green, the other unit provides enough. In case it is red, the support in the hex does not suffice.

In what way was my reasoning wrong?

[Atilla60]

Shoot!

Dunno how I got that mixed up, maybe I got LCU HQs confused with naval HQs sharing nav support.

Anyway, thanks for setting it straight guys.

Like you said LoBaron, we learn every day [:)]

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Thanks John! Could you help me get this straight please?

It seems I have always read some numbers wrong. I always thought that the difference between
support and required support results in the support points 'borrowed' from another unit. If the required
support is green, the other unit provides enough. In case it is red, the support in the hex does not suffice.

In what way was my reasoning wrong?

Because you are looking at things from a wrong perspective.

The game algorithm works in a certain way, and pays little attention to the little color charts that are so important to you all. If you look at the screenshot I posted, you might get a clue. Who gives a rat's patoot about a color? You are either in Sup, or outa Sup; You either have AV, or don't have AV; Woof !!

Green, red, orange is frikkin simple, for anybody who has a clue.

Is there still a problem?

[LoBaron]

Actually I thought it was friggin' simple until I have found this thread...

I think I have a clue now though. Will check some of my own units.

[Yaab]

Here's the second corps in the hex, the 18th Chinese Corps.

[Yaab]

Manual, page 182:

" One support squad is needed for every non-Support or Aviation Support element in the unit."

The numbers in the pictures add up.

Also, there is no information in patch notes about changing how support works in non-base hexes. Weird.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Manual, page 182:

" One support squad is needed for every non-Support or Aviation Support element in the unit."

The numbers in the pictures add up.

Also, there is no information in patch notes about changing how support works in non-base hexes. Weird.

Agree, this is weird.


Also in the Manual, p182:

"The Support value (86) is the amount of intrinsic support (i.e., support within the unit) that
is available, while the Support Required value 96) indicates the number of support squads
needed to fully support the men and equipment in the unit. This unit is not able to draw extra
support from other units in the hex, so the Support Required number is in red."

The manual does not refer to what a green color code means, but it is not far off to draw the opposing conclusion which would mean:
"This unit is able to draw extra support from other units in the hex, so the Support Required number is in green."

Which basically is how I always interpreted this number. I also checked units in my own game and there the interpretation looks sound as well.

John, sorry but I do not think I am looking at things from a wrong perspective. Yaab´s screenshot suggests that the 74th Chinese Corps, which
requires more support than can be provided by the intristic support squads, draws the additional support from another unit in the hex (18th Corps), which
is why it is coded green and not red.

This is not in accordance to the manual, which states that support draw is only possible in friendly base hexes. So at the moment I would be drawn to the
conclusion that either the green color is wrong, or the foreign support draw is wrong, or the manual is wrong. One of the three.


If you tried to point to an error in this interpretation I am not seeing it.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Actually I thought it was friggin' simple until I have found this thread...

Actually it is frikkin simple.

Just look at the OP post and then look at the response. And then look at OP post #9 and apply 4 brain cells to an exactly similar respomse. Can you say Duh, I think you can.

It IS utterly simple. It's fifth grade (third grade) math (well, fifth grade math about 40 years ago, which means at least remedial Masters level arithmetic, these days).

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: JWE

There's no sharing going on, here. The 75th Chinese Corps has only the support that it has. It requires only the support it requires. The manual is correct. There is no sharing outside a friendly base hex.

So, this unit is short on support. It has 419 support squads, but requires 447 support squads (327+41+10+37+9+23) and is therefore short by 26 support squads. And the green color means - nothing?

[Ddog]

Maybe the green color has something to do with the unit being in Rest/Training mode?
 
I was also under the understanding that a HQ that had a radius of 5 (for example) would support the troops within that range.  Am I wrong?
 
Thanks for the info sharing! 

[Yaab]

Ok, let's look at the 74th Chinese Corps.

Undisabled elements:

Squad elements: 327 + 41 (assault strength 368)

Non-aviation and non-support elements: 10+37+9+23

Total elements: 447

Support required: 447

Intrinsic support elements: 419

This is how I read the numbers and they add up.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: Ddog

Maybe the green color has something to do with the unit being in Rest/Training mode?

I was also under the understanding that a HQ that had a radius of 5 (for example) would support the troops within that range.  Am I wrong?

Thanks for the info sharing! 

Mode is irrelevant - it works the same for Combat, Rest, Reserve and Move.

However, both units are in range of their respective corps HQs (20th Group Army is in Changteh, 29th Group Army is in Changsha) - the two corps sit exactly between the two cities.

[Yaab]

Also, compare supplies required for both corps. The 74th is AWASH with supply! Its AV on the 7th December was 332, on the 14th December it is already 370! This unit unidisables like crazy!

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Actually I thought it was friggin' simple until I have found this thread...

Actually it is frikkin simple.

Just look at the OP post and then look at the response. And then look at OP post #9 and apply 4 brain cells to an exactly similar respomse. Can you say Duh, I think you can.

It IS utterly simple. It's fifth grade (third grade) math (well, fifth grade math about 40 years ago, which means at least remedial Masters level arithmetic, these days).

The math is not the issue.

The issue is the result of the remedial Master level arithmetic in relation to the color coding of the Support Required #. [:)]

As I understand it:
White: Support Required is lower than # of intrisic support squads
Red: Support Required is higher than # of intrisic support squads and no external support from units in the hex can be borrowed
Green: Support Required is higher than # of intrisic support squads but external support from units in the hex can be borrowed

In Yaab´s screenshot the Support Required # should be Red, as in a non-base hex support between units cannot be shared.


It very much looks like a mismatch between manual and how the game treats this situation. Funny thing is, I like it better this way, as it encourages warfare
away from base hexes, and so encourages frontlines. [;)]

[Yaab]

The situation is unusal, because per design almost all infantry units in WITP:AE operate with inadequate instrinsic support squads. The 18th and 74th Chinese Corps are examples of a handful of units which start the game with overgrown TOEs. Their maxed-out TOE should be 666 support squads, and at start they have 834 support squads each.