Empire of the Rising Lemon? SqzMyLemon (Japan) v Smeulders (Allies)

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: obvert

Do you have a no strat bombing HR for China? If not, it might not matter what state it's in as a few 4E raids will finish it off.

If you do have an HR for this, then you can build it back and use it for quite a while once you clear the rest of S China.

Hi obvert,

As far as I know, we do have a no strategic bombing HR for China. Until when, I don't know. I may not repair the HI though. I'm running into real problems with HI production in Manchuria and Korea. I'm getting a lot of missed production now due to lack of fuel. I think trying to get fuel to flow to Fusan is messing things up. I'm going to stop fuel extraction from Fusan in the short term and try to get things stabilized. I may resort to shipping fuel purely from Singapore. At least there won't be spoilage using this route.

Once I did stop taking it out of Fusan in mine things in Manchuria normalized. I'm still getting draw down to Hong Kong and Shanghai from Port Arthur though, which is a bit of going the wrong way down a one way street for me.

As for the Central Chinese HI, it should be run from the Lanchow and Sian fuel. This is what did it with a lot more industry there when it was in Allied hands. Mine in Changsha and Sian as well as the other Chinese cities are running just fine after being built up a bit.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: obvert

Do you have a no strat bombing HR for China? If not, it might not matter what state it's in as a few 4E raids will finish it off.

If you do have an HR for this, then you can build it back and use it for quite a while once you clear the rest of S China.

Hi obvert,

As far as I know, we do have a no strategic bombing HR for China. Until when, I don't know. I may not repair the HI though. I'm running into real problems with HI production in Manchuria and Korea. I'm getting a lot of missed production now due to lack of fuel. I think trying to get fuel to flow to Fusan is messing things up. I'm going to stop fuel extraction from Fusan in the short term and try to get things stabilized. I may resort to shipping fuel purely from Singapore. At least there won't be spoilage using this route.

Once I did stop taking it out of Fusan in mine things in Manchuria normalized. I'm still getting draw down to Hong Kong and Shanghai from Port Arthur though, which is a bit of going the wrong way down a one way street for me.

As for the Central Chinese HI, it should be run from the Lanchow and Sian fuel. This is what did it with a lot more industry there when it was in Allied hands. Mine in Changsha and Sian as well as the other Chinese cities are running just fine after being built up a bit.

I'm hoping things will normalize too. I worry that if I repair the HI at Chengtu it will further strain things in the short term by drawing additional fuel away from bases needing it. I'll get the HI producing in Manchuria and Korea, then look at what I can do with Chengtu's HI potential. Anything extra right now is gravy in terms of production, but I want everything that should be operating at 100%, doing so. I'm also going to start a dedicated oil TF to Port Arthur to increase what's refined daily.

[SqzMyLemon]

Turns have been slow of late. We've only completed two or three turns since the last update.

The highlights from the last couple of turns are few. Allied airpower is killing my ground forces at Meiktila and Japanese fighter strength has not recovered quickly enough to interdict these raids. I will start some sweeps with Oscar's in an effort to whittle down the Allied LRCAP that is causing havoc with my forces trying to interdict bombing raids. I get the Oscar IIb next month, and this will be huge. I can add a few Sentai's to the front once they convert from Nate's. I know it's not superior to the IIa, but it does allow me greater flexibility and improves the quality of my air force across the board.

In Burma, the 21st Division continues to march for Moulein and two infantry regiments are unloading at Rangoon. I think a Japanese offensive in Burma is called for in order to slow the Allied advance. I'm thinking I may commit a further three divisions here. I still have two divisions and two infantry regiments available to be bought out from Japan and China respectively, I just need the PP's.

The 2nd Division has withdrawn from Lunga to Rabaul and is available for redeployment. The 54th division is bound for Ponape. The 28th Division will garrison Lunga, Tassafaronga and Tulagi. That leaves the 16th and 48th Divisons yet to be redeployed. I'm withdrawing some air support units and an Air Division HQ from the Solomons as well. It's time to get the DEI sorted out for air defence.

I'm not sure the best use for KB at the moment. Do I keep it in the Central Pacific to face the next Allied thrust, use it to defend the Solomons, or slowly shift it towards the DEI to prevent any lodgement close enough for 4E's to target oil facilities. I have all my CVL's and CVE's already at Java.

My small SCTF operating off the north coast of Australia caught the small enemy supply TF near Port Hedland, and sank the lone remaining xAKL and one Dutch DD. One DD remains, which I hope to sink next turn.

The majority of my large tankers have now reached Singapore again and the revised merchant shipping effort to export more fuel/oil from the SRA has begun. More 8150 capacity tankers are becoming available and they are instrumental in getting bases like Miri, Brunei and Tarakan emptied quickly. I've also begun expanded resource exporting. I'll provide an actual detailed account of my merchant operations in a further update.

[obvert]

How is your LBA in the Java/Sumatra area now? Can you withstand a CV supported landing with just the LBA?

I would still think it's better to be near the Pacific, but from Truk you can get to the DEI fairly quickly at least.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hi Sqzmylemon,

I can't quite figure out what Bart is doing with his fighters near Mykitlina either. My thoughts-in order of perceived likelihood:

1. The P40Ks are LRCAP directed to loiter over Mykitlina. Several squadrons are thus ordered, but not all fly on the same 'phase', resulting in 'lumpy' numbers over the city.

I don't know if there would be a stated mission associated with LRCAPing enemy aircraft, unlike the sweep notifications you're receiving from the Hurricanes.

2. The P40Ks may be "bleedover" from other hexes nearby. This is less likely, as my experience suggests that bleedover results in smaller numbers of aircraft over the target.

I have trouble getting more than one Allied fighter to sweep at at time. The solution is to send one fighter in on a sweep and then put up the rest on LRCAP over the target. This works very well for me. Only problem is sometimes the LRCAP does not show up but that is rare.

Likewise, I never send escorts with my bombers but assign them to LRCAP over the target that the bombers are assigned to hit. This also works very well-it cuts escort losses. Gives you even odds vs enemy CAP, if not more kills, and serves very well to protect not only the attacking bombers but is still there to protect those follow up leakers that usually get slaughtered. Your opponent is probably doing this. Try it. It works well.

One note, it does not work too well in 2 day turn games.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: obvert

How is your LBA in the Java/Sumatra area now? Can you withstand a CV supported landing with just the LBA?

[:D] Don't ask. The short answer is...no.

I'll provide the actual dispositions when I have access to the game. My air dispositions are poor though. Ki-43 Ic's, Lily's and Kate's make up the majority of my available aircraft in Sumatra and Java. I do have one Zero and one Betty unit also available. I can increase the number of Army Sentai's once I upgrade to the IIb Oscar. I have a couple of Betty units to withdraw soon though, so a further weakening of my naval air capacity.

I do get the sunk CV Hiryu air components back in July though. That was pre-patch time and it's taken 1 1/2 years to reform these three units. Kind of ridiculous it was such a long delay before the game updates kicked in.

I don't know if it's a PDU off thing or just Japan's OOB, but I can only really mass enough air power in two theatres at a time. Burma has shown that even with a substantial commitment in strength, all it takes is one bad day to decimate Japanese air units. I had committed large numbers of aircraft to the Solomons, but with the quick capture of Lunga and the lack of Allied defence they were not needed. I'm currently shifting things around to provide the most effective coverage I can. I do not get substantial air group reinforcements until July, which is a long 3 1/2 months away.

The majority of my naval LBA is currently in the Solomons, with a few units around Java and Timor. Bart's style dictates that I'll need to hit him with large numbers to have any chance to be effective, unfortunately, that means I can only cover a few areas. If I guess wrong, he'll land easily before I can adjust my dispositions. Just look at how ineffective my Betty's were against his CV's when he first invaded Guadalcanal. I'll need 3 times the numbers to get in an effective counterblow. And if KB performs as badly again, well...

I just don't have enough good air units available en masse to make a decisive blow. I've mentioned this before, but I have a grand total of around 88 Tojo's and 80 Tony's for the entire Pacific. Hardly sufficient to counter the Allied Air Deathstar I'm facing in Burma, let alone anywhere else large numbers of enemy air units can be committed. I need to save the Zero's for naval air ops and not sacrifice them needlessly in air combat over Burma.

It's going to be interesting if I guess right and have strong LBA combined with KB in place for an Allied operation though.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I have trouble getting more than one Allied fighter to sweep at at time. The solution is to send one fighter in on a sweep and then put up the rest on LRCAP over the target. This works very well for me. Only problem is sometimes the LRCAP does not show up but that is rare.

Likewise, I never send escorts with my bombers but assign them to LRCAP over the target that the bombers are assigned to hit. This also works very well-it cuts escort losses. Gives you even odds vs enemy CAP, if not more kills, and serves very well to protect not only the attacking bombers but is still there to protect those follow up leakers that usually get slaughtered. Your opponent is probably doing this. Try it. It works well.

One note, it does not work too well in 2 day turn games.

Thanks for posting crsutton. I appreciate the insight into the tactic, but unfortunately I don't want to emulate it, but counter it.

The Allied bombers don't need escorts and rather than risk assigning them, Bart's relying on LRCAP and sweeps. Being on the receiving end of it, I can't help thinking it's an exploit to use LRCAP to avoid the escort penalty and get a height advantage over my CAP, which is at low altitude in order to hit the bombers. That being said, if I was conducting bombing operations I'd most likely be doing the same thing. [:D]

Any ideas on how to counter? I'm thinking I must start using sweeps of my own to reduce the numbers against me on better terms.

[obvert]

I hope you're training up some Oscar pilots in Low Nav! Looks like you might need to use everything that can carry a bomb when the invasions come in.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: obvert

I hope you're training up some Oscar pilots in Low Nav! Looks like you might need to use everything that can carry a bomb when the invasions come in.

No doubt! [:D]

[SqzMyLemon]

Just a note on the slower pace of the game lately. Bart's let me know that he's just busy with Summer stuff and finding it a little harder to devote time to getting turns completed. I don't blame him and the slow pace of the game suits me fine. I can get caught up on other things. With that being said, and the lack of actual turn updates, I'll have time to provide any kind of game info requested and screenshots. The floor is open, just let me know what may be of interest.

I did get a turn today though, so we'll see if my Oscar sweep in Burma was a mistake or not. I probably shouldn't have ordered it and am fully prepared to face getting my ass handed to me. [:D]

The only other action I forsee is hopefully catching that last Dutch DD off the coast of Australia and sinking her.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Just a note on the slower pace of the game lately. Bart's let me know that he's just busy with Summer stuff and finding it a little harder to devote time to getting turns completed. I don't blame him and the slow pace of the game suits me fine. I can get caught up on other things. With that being said, and the lack of actual turn updates, I'll have time to provide any kind of game info requested and screenshots. The floor is open, just let me know what may be of interest.

I did get a turn today though, so we'll see if my Oscar sweep in Burma was a mistake or not. I probably shouldn't have ordered it and am fully prepared to face getting my ass handed to me. [:D]

The only other action I forsee is hopefully catching that last Dutch DD off the coast of Australia and sinking her.

I'd appreciate a map of the Kwieyang-Chungking-Patun corridor in China again. Your take on what routes by which to cut off Chungking from the West road system would be useful information too.

I just captured Kweiyang in my game and am interested in your thoughts on breakthrough exploitation in China.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I'd appreciate a map of the Kwieyang-Chungking-Patun corridor in China again. Your take on what routes by which to cut off Chungking from the West road system would be useful information too.

I just captured Kweiyang in my game and am interested in your thoughts on breakthrough exploitation in China.

I'll make one up tonight for you.

Not being familiar with the capabilities in your game, is knocking China out a possibility? What do you hope to accomplish? I'm starting to see Chungking as a potential prison camp rather than try to capture it outright. If you take Chengtu, you force all spawning units to Chungking. If you can then close all the hex sides to Chungking and keep a strong enough sieging force in place, you've got yourself a fantastic way to bottle up all the Chinese reinforcements and respawns. Of course, if the Geni ever gets out of the bottle...well, it will get pretty ugly. [:D]

I think capturing Kweiyang, Kunming and Chengtu are crucial in defeating China, more so than pushing them east to west.

I'm no expert of course, but if you can give me an idea on what you want to do, I can offer my thoughts on what I've learned about fighting in China. I know if I could go back, I'd do things much differently.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I did get a turn today though, so we'll see if my Oscar sweep in Burma was a mistake or not. I probably shouldn't have ordered it and am fully prepared to face getting my ass handed to me. [:D]

Ack, I really need to go with my gut more often. I'll update the last few turns later, but the sweeps in Burma were fine. Uncoordinated, but the height advantage was key. I lost seven Oscar's against downing about 12 P-40K's. I think I missed out on a great opportunity to decimate those LRCAP'ing Warhawks, if I'd commited the Tojo's instead. Unfortunately, I'm still in the process of replenishing them. However, the third Tojo Sentai will arrive by rail from Singapore in three days, then I'll have 80 Tojo's to play with in Burma.

As much as I like the results from my sweeps, I'm extremely disappointed that I was proven right. Oscar's at 25k got the dive and bounce bonus that my own CAP has been suffering against. It just clearly shows me height remains king of the air battle. Sure, I lost some fighters that were pulled down against lower altitude CAP, but otherwise I came out on top and even the undergunned Oscar with the height advantage downed more enemy fighters than I lost. The math works for me. Reduce the effects of the height advantage and I think the air model would be that much better. Right now, if you are higher, you win more than you lose...period.

Allied units have reached Meiktila and I'll probably lose it soon. Burma is going to get ugly, but I'm also going to hit back with everything I have. I'm looking to eventually counterattack and try to defeat the Allies in detail. Winning the air war will be key, and I have some ideas on how to chip away at the enemy. No more relying on CAP for me though. I'm targeting bleeding enemy CAP from now on with sweeps of my own. Then I'll be able to get to the bombers once enemy fighter strength is reduced to more managable numbers. It's the only counter I have available against enemy LRCAP providing cover for sweep and bomber attacks.

[JocMeister]

I have actually NEVER gotten a coordinated sweep. Resorted to using LRCAP aswell. Tried 100s of sweeps using the editor with diffrent settings. Sweeps never coordinated.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I have actually NEVER gotten a coordinated sweep. Resorted to using LRCAP aswell. Tried 100s of sweeps using the editor with diffrent settings. Sweeps never coordinated.

In fact, I like the rest of you find that sweeps come in one group at a time fighting unitl 1) downed or damaged severly; 2) out of fuel / ammo 3) enemy supressed .. which means the first groups will fight a tough fight at say 16 vs. 50 ... [8|]

I am not having very good luck with LRCAP offensively however ... on a rare occasion I see action but mostly LRCAP seems to work only if the IJ are coming at me and my forces react .. I have yet to have my forces say interdict a fight I initiated ..

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I am not having very good luck with LRCAP offensively however ... on a rare occasion I see action but mostly LRCAP seems to work only if the IJ are coming at me and my forces react .. I have yet to have my forces say interdict a fight I initiated ..

Bart's got it figured out. If you look at the combat reports I've posted on two large scale air battles over Burma, the Hurricanes are set to sweeps while the P-40's appear to all be LRCAP. They appear in some capacity in almost every strike, be it bombing or sweep missions. It does and has reacted to my CAP sent up to interdict his bombing raids, providing an escort function and eating up passes of my CAP before encountering the bombers. You can see where twice there have been extremely large P-40K formations that have accompanied a Hurricane sweep and simply decimated my fighters from being in a LRCAP role.

LRCAP does work and completely avoids the need to provide escorts. A huge loophole that is exploited in my opinion.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I am not having very good luck with LRCAP offensively however ... on a rare occasion I see action but mostly LRCAP seems to work only if the IJ are coming at me and my forces react .. I have yet to have my forces say interdict a fight I initiated ..

Bart's got it figured out. If you look at the combat reports I've posted on two large scale air battles over Burma, the Hurricanes are set to sweeps while the P-40's appear to all be LRCAP. They appear in some capacity in almost every strike, be it bombing or sweep missions. It does and has reacted to my CAP sent up to interdict his bombing raids, providing an escort function and eating up passes of my CAP before encountering the bombers. You can see where twice there have been extremely large P-40K formations that have accompanied a Hurricane sweep and simply decimated my fighters from being in a LRCAP role.

LRCAP does work and completely avoids the need to provide escorts. A huge loophole that is exploited in my opinion.

indeed, sounds like quite a mechanics exploit.

[JocMeister]

Yep, that doesn´t sound right at all. If this was the intention of the devs they wouldn´t have put the escort mission in the game.

Perhaps its time to bring this up with your oppoent?

[Historiker]

Well, there seems to be a way to counter it:
Sweep the base! You have the advantage of the sweeper while your shot down pilots have a higher chance of surviving than his. The only disadvantage is, that you need additional fighters as you can't use those that should protect the contested base. You also need an additional base, additional Av-Support...

But that's the way to counter it IMO.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Yep, that doesn´t sound right at all. If this was the intention of the devs they wouldn´t have put the escort mission in the game.

Perhaps its time to bring this up with your oppoent?

As long as I can counter, I'm ok with it. I'm not prepared to cry wolf on this issue. As much as I may complain about the air model, I'll do my best to act within it's limitations in a reasonable manner. I'll adapt, it's what I do best. [8D]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

Well, there seems to be a way to counter it:
Sweep the base! You have the advantage of the sweeper while your shot down pilots have a higher chance of surviving than his. The only disadvantage is, that you need additional fighters as you can't use those that should protect the contested base. You also need an additional base, additional Av-Support...

But that's the way to counter it IMO.

I don''t think you can sweep your own base though. I remember PzB in his AAR mentioning this quite a bit. Unless something has changed in a patch, I don't believe it's possible to pick a friendly base as a target for a sweep. I will try next turn to confirm.

I do agree. Sweeps of my own may be the answer to the LRCAP problem. I chose Magwe (Allied controlled) to sweep and that drew off a fair number that are usually over Meiktila based from Shwebo. If Bart wants to rely on LRCAP, I'll make it as costly for him as possible. I'll post specifics on the latest air battles in Burma when I update.