Atomic Bombs and Bombers

[mdiehl]

If, in the wake of Hiroshima, the military had immediately perceived that the bomb was atomic, they could have sooner utilized the “face-saving” possibility of the atomic bomb, and acquiesced to Foreign Minister To\go\’s entreaty for peace on 7 August.

The IJA knew within 8 hours that the weapon used on Hiroshima had destroyed the entire city and might be an atomic bomb. They were on the scene almost immediately collecting info because Hiroshima was the location of 2nd General Army HQ (Field Marshall Hata). The bomb was dropped at 8:15. By 10:00 AM both the Army Ministry in Tokyo and the Chief of the Imperial General Staff had been informed that a "new type of bomb" had been used and the entire city of Hiroshima destroyed.

Within 24 hours Imperial General Staff knew that only one bomb had been dropped and it was an atomic bomb. The IJA's response was that "The Americans cannot possibly have more than one."

All of that is documented in Richard Frank's Downfall, esp in the vicinity of pp.269-275.

(In point of fact, the US had made four bombs -- Los Alamos, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and an unused one on the way to Tinian, by the time Hiroshima was dropped, and was on track to have made 16 by the end of October. So Truman's promised rain of destruction was factually accurate).

[oldman45]

What gets me about this thread, why did it even get started? This is all about a mod that is adding atomic bombs. I know over the years I have seen hundreds of comments where the answer was, "if ya want to change it there is an editor." I for one don't care if Cid wants to add nuc's to his mod. Yet we have 3 pages of comments, on a topic that is really unimportant.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

What gets me about this thread, why did it even get started? This is all about a mod that is adding atomic bombs. I know over the years I have seen hundreds of comments where the answer was, "if ya want to change it there is an editor." I for one don't care if Cid wants to add nuc's to his mod. Yet we have 3 pages of comments, on a topic that is really unimportant.

It's not that at all. It's the presentation of things as facts that are not so, even ones lacking in all credibility. Still, "do your mod and have fun!" is great - the only problem being that many new guys or occasional readers can get suckered into thinking they are going a historical route. They have a right to decent info so they can choose what they want to do. A few months ago I responded to a thread (by the same author) which declared that aircraft drop tanks in AE did not work right and never had. So even basic factual information about the game gets bombastically falsified, way to scare the crap out of new guys! [:(]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

What gets me about this thread, why did it even get started? This is all about a mod that is adding atomic bombs. I know over the years I have seen hundreds of comments where the answer was, "if ya want to change it there is an editor." I for one don't care if Cid wants to add nuc's to his mod. Yet we have 3 pages of comments, on a topic that is really unimportant.

true. Cid has the right to do whatever he wants in his mod and that of itself is no big deal. Cid simply doing a mod puts him far beyond our true collection of trolls such as Diehl, who i can see has chimed in, on a thread on the sub-forum devoted to mods and scenarios for a game he's never owned or played. I mention this only to highlight that I don't consider Cid a "troll" unlike our boy Diehl despite some comparisons.

That being said......when Cid presented post#2 on this thread, he started the chain of events that went beyond modding. He implied justifications for what he was doing in his mod to real world history and then did his usual wink wink.......i'm in the know unlike the bulk of the rest of humanity which given the subject matter is bound to rub someone's nose the wrong way. Admitedly some people's reactions did go a bit over the top but Cid's tendancy to mix self promotion and questionable to vague citations for justifying what he says followed by yet more self promotion about how his integrity, and of people's violent reactions being par for the course for ones who don't wish to expand their viewpoints...... can be argued as designed to entice a reaction in the same way that our true Trolls do. The Devil can quote scripture.....or cite facts, or cite "compelling evidence".....a favorite buzz term of trolls and non-trolls.

I actually took the time to read all 6000+ words of Cid's intentionally verbose contemplations trying to see if there was any merit to what he hinted at. if nothing else i found the "citations" he claimed were there and let others take it from there by posting them without them also having to go through a tiring exercise in concentration. Personally i was disapointed. Call it Cid bashing on my part but I at least gave him the benie of a doubt. Ultimately he can do whatever he wants in his mod. If he wants bio weapons and Jet stream baloon bombs, go for it. Modding is part of what WitP and WitP AE are all about. Ultimately if even one person downloads and likes his mod, then its a worthwhile effort for him.

When you try to cite some mod elements as historical however, you invite others to comment appropriately. All Cid needed to do at that point was post his evidence in succint fashion, bereft of his stories about himself and all the other tangents he goes on when he writes.....and let it be. However thats not what happened and the resultant Fubar was not unexpected as a result.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: oldman45

What gets me about this thread, why did it even get started? This is all about a mod that is adding atomic bombs. I know over the years I have seen hundreds of comments where the answer was, "if ya want to change it there is an editor." I for one don't care if Cid wants to add nuc's to his mod. Yet we have 3 pages of comments, on a topic that is really unimportant.

true. Cid has the right to do whatever he wants in his mod and that of itself is no big deal. Cid simply doing a mod puts him far beyond our true collection of trolls such as Diehl, who i can see has chimed in, on a thread on the sub-forum devoted to mods and scenarios for a game he's never owned or played. I mention this only to highlight that I don't consider Cid a "troll" unlike our boy Diehl despite some comparisons.

That being said......when Cid presented post#2 on this thread, he started the chain of events that went beyond modding. He implied justifications for what he was doing in his mod to real world history and then did his usual wink wink.......i'm in the know unlike the bulk of the rest of humanity which given the subject matter is bound to rub someone's nose the wrong way. Admitedly some people's reactions did go a bit over the top but Cid's tendancy to mix self promotion and questionable to vague citations for justifying what he says followed by yet more self promotion about how his integrity, and of people's violent reactions being par for the course for ones who don't wish to expand their viewpoints...... can be argued as designed to entice a reaction in the same way that our true Trolls do. The Devil can quote scripture.....or cite facts, or cite "compelling evidence".....a favorite buzz term of trolls and non-trolls.

I actually took the time to read all 6000+ words of Cid's intentionally verbose contemplations trying to see if there was any merit to what he hinted at. if nothing else i found the "citations" he claimed were there and let others take it from there by posting them without them also having to go through a tiring exercise in concentration. Personally i was disapointed. Call it Cid bashing on my part but I at least gave him the benie of a doubt. Ultimately he can do whatever he wants in his mod. If he wants bio weapons and Jet stream baloon bombs, go for it. Modding is part of what WitP and WitP AE are all about. Ultimately if even one person downloads and likes his mod, then its a worthwhile effort for him.

When you try to cite some mod elements as historical however, you invite others to comment appropriately. All Cid needed to do at that point was post his evidence in succint fashion, bereft of his stories about himself and all the other tangents he goes on when he writes.....and let it be. However thats not what happened and the resultant Fubar was not unexpected as a result.

Nik,

You got it wrong. Balloon is spelled with two ls not one.

Spot on with the rest. [:D]

[oldman45]

Thank you both, it makes more sense now.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Thank you both, it makes more sense now.

A thread started by Cid makes sense? How'd that happen? They sometimes make amusing reading..., but "making sense" is a new accomplishment... [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[mdiehl]

Cid has the right to do whatever he wants in his mod and that of itself is no big deal. Cid simply doing a mod puts him far beyond our true collection of trolls such as Diehl,

Hey, Thought Police: F**k you. ..l.,

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

A thread started by Cid makes sense? How'd that happen? They sometimes make amusing reading..., but "making sense" is a new accomplishment... [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

Well I wouldn't go that far. But he did say that he had posted citations if one bothered to read carefully. I decided to read carefully. As Cid likes to say......often.....he was "technically" correct. He did throw in a few references. Overall package though wasn't very convincing.

[danlongman]

In my experience people with inside knowledge of stuff usually never talk or are quite happy to exploit the situation with multi-extremely credible
references for personal gain. For example the trend is towards blockbuster books which subsequently make a fortune and lead to a lucrative life
on the lecture/talk show circuit and lasting fame or notoriety. A third route is some guy with a semi-credible idea publishes a no-so-blockbuster
book, flashes in his own pan and wanders into the jungle of conspiria for decades with his silent "millions" of believers. He pops up now and then in some other Bozo's "references".
People who know big things do NOT dribble them out on obscure (apologies) websites hiding behind "personal" information and even more obscure stuff
that got burned in a fire/stolen by spies/eaten by teenagers or the dog/returned to the aliens/suppressed by the Hairdresser's Union etc freakin cetera.
That is my personal experience and discretion prevents me from saying more.......even though I do know a little more.
cheers

[JWE]

Hello danlongman,

I sent you a PM and a forum email with my contact info. You sound like someone I would like to get to know.

[Dan Nichols]

Personally I like these types of threads. I don't read what Cid has to say, but often the responses are funny as heck.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: oldman45

What gets me about this thread, why did it even get started? This is all about a mod that is adding atomic bombs. I know over the years I have seen hundreds of comments where the answer was, "if ya want to change it there is an editor." I for one don't care if Cid wants to add nuc's to his mod. Yet we have 3 pages of comments, on a topic that is really unimportant.

true. Cid has the right to do whatever he wants in his mod and that of itself is no big deal. Cid simply doing a mod puts him far beyond our true collection of trolls such as Diehl, who i can see has chimed in, on a thread on the sub-forum devoted to mods and scenarios for a game he's never owned or played. I mention this only to highlight that I don't consider Cid a "troll" unlike our boy Diehl despite some comparisons.

That being said......when Cid presented post#2 on this thread, he started the chain of events that went beyond modding. He implied justifications for what he was doing in his mod to real world history and then did his usual wink wink.......i'm in the know unlike the bulk of the rest of humanity which given the subject matter is bound to rub someone's nose the wrong way. Admitedly some people's reactions did go a bit over the top but Cid's tendancy to mix self promotion and questionable to vague citations for justifying what he says followed by yet more self promotion about how his integrity, and of people's violent reactions being par for the course for ones who don't wish to expand their viewpoints...... can be argued as designed to entice a reaction in the same way that our true Trolls do. The Devil can quote scripture.....or cite facts, or cite "compelling evidence".....a favorite buzz term of trolls and non-trolls.

I actually took the time to read all 6000+ words of Cid's intentionally verbose contemplations trying to see if there was any merit to what he hinted at. if nothing else i found the "citations" he claimed were there and let others take it from there by posting them without them also having to go through a tiring exercise in concentration. Personally i was disapointed. Call it Cid bashing on my part but I at least gave him the benie of a doubt. Ultimately he can do whatever he wants in his mod. If he wants bio weapons and Jet stream baloon bombs, go for it. Modding is part of what WitP and WitP AE are all about. Ultimately if even one person downloads and likes his mod, then its a worthwhile effort for him.

When you try to cite some mod elements as historical however, you invite others to comment appropriately. All Cid needed to do at that point was post his evidence in succint fashion, bereft of his stories about himself and all the other tangents he goes on when he writes.....and let it be. However thats not what happened and the resultant Fubar was not unexpected as a result.

Nik,

You got it wrong. Balloon is spelled with two ls not one.

Spot on with the rest. [:D]

I thought the information might be of interest to a few modders or those interested in mod design (presumably those not interested would not be in this forum). I also thought that those who already know everything about the matter, or who believe I would always get everything wrong, might ignore such a thread - since things have been relatively quiet for a long time. Nevertheless, I think witpqs (what a handle!) may have a point about how to proceed with slightly less controversy? There are indeed problems with documentation - doubly so in English (since the original materials were not written in English) - and with the sheer time required to go to the primary level (MAGIC intercept xyz, blueprint abcd, etc) - not to mention that some of the critics want documents they can find in the local library - which pretty much limits one to books in English. All I attempted to do was establish that there is a foundation in the form of research and development - and that over time more and more dimensions of that have been revealed. Since no atomic bombs were dropped on Tinian, or San Francisco, or anywhere else the enemy might have chosen, clearly the chances of such a thing are low - and probably relegated to a later time if the war had lasted longer. My intent was to address a request for the possibility of a Japanese bomb in that time frame, and delivery systems for it - as well as to experiment with both code and non-coded solutions given reports of problems with trying to use the existing bomb. One reason the Allies have a kind not in the code slot is as a hedge - and as a control case - to measure the effects of a defined super conventional bomb. This isn't really different than the Uji bomb also found in RHS - which is an addempt to model a bw weapon actually used. Code has no provision for bw - so it is entirely experimental - and a compromise in some respects. These are techincal matters which ought to be fair game in this forum. I do not require anyone to believe there was a horserace to get the bomb first. But there was. The Day Man Lost - written by scholars (I learned last week from John Dower) even if not documented to scholarly standards - probably has the best summary English language account of that race as it was understood in the 1960s - when it was written. It does create the impression that research didn't get past the preliminary stages, but leaves no doubt there were reactors and good intelligence and remarkable theoretical understanding of fundamentals (better in some respects that existed anywhere else). In a hypothetical game world, it should be possible to build on that foundation given enough time and resources.

I do not believe in atomic warfare - particularly not on cities (which the game seems to require) - and note that US planning until 1945 was NOT to use them on cities (the first target was long planned to be Truk naval operating base). I also do not think dedicating a plane factory to making an atomic bomber is wise use of resources - and so it is a mistake to invest that way. But I think players should be able to do things I don't think are wise - for fun or because they believe passionately it is 'realistic.' Just as they should be able to build Shinano - as a battleship - or as a terrible carrier - in a historical scenario. Not because I recommend either.

I don't particularly worry about anyone who cannot keep things in reasonable perspective. Reasonable people with strong feelings are free to totally disregard what I say - even not to read it in the first place. And it is perfectly reasonable to say you are skeptical of what I say. But even I am regularly surprised by what comes out. I was "sure" there was no German atom bomb - to the extent I "knew" an expedition to the test site on Bornholm island could not measure anything. [I have been to ground zero of the US test - and flowers grow there - but my meter didn't read anything.] Yet I was wrong - and they did find measurable residue. I also "knew" there were "no bomb plans" in Germany other than "reactor bombs" - which were patented! Yet a gun design turned up a couple of years ago. I am regularly wrong in these matters - but not because I overestimate what is likely to be true. Rather the reverse.

[mdiehl]

You don't need to justify yourself to those morons, El Cid. It was an interesting question.

[JWE]

Nope, he don't. neither do you. Just wishing you joy of the day.

[SargeantTex]

Isnt this a forum for the worlds greatest Pacific War Simulation it seems it is turning into a political\alternate history Forum!!! a million words were just said that has nothing to do with WITP AE[:)]

[Mac67]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Nope, he don't. neither do you. Just wishing you joy of the day.

It never ceases to amuse how you are so quick to accuse others of acting immature and yet continue to act like a retarded 12 year old yourself. Stay classy.[:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

Diehl the Scumbag humping the leg of Cid the Liar. Quite the spectacle.

[mdiehl]

Diehl the Scumbag humping the leg of Cid the Liar. Quite the spectacle.

Your presence here illustrates the fact that a thread can always deteriorate further.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I thought the information might be of interest to a few modders or those interested in mod design (presumably those not interested would not be in this forum). I also thought that those who already know everything about the matter, or who believe I would always get everything wrong, might ignore such a thread - since things have been relatively quiet for a long time. Nevertheless, I think witpqs (what a handle!) may have a point about how to proceed with slightly less controversy? There are indeed problems with documentation - doubly so in English (since the original materials were not written in English) - and with the sheet time required to go to the primary level (MAGIC intercept xyz, blueprint abcd, etc) - not to mention that some of the critics want documents they can find in the local library - which pretty much limits one to books in English. All I attempted to do was establish that there is a foundation in the form of research and development - and that over time more and more dimensions of that have been revealed. Since no atomic bombs were dropped on Tinian, or San Francisco, or anywhere else the enemy might have chosen, clearly the chances of such a thing are low - and probably relegated to a later time if the war had lasted longer. My intent was to address a request for the possibility of a Japanese bomb in that time frame, and delivery systems for it - as well as to experiment with both code and non-coded solutions given reports of problems with trying to use the existing bomb. One reason the Allies have a kind not in the code slot is as a hedge - and as a control case - to measure the effects of a defined super conventional bomb. This isn't really different than the Uji bomb also found in RHS - which is an addempt to model a bw weapon actually used. Code has no provision for bw - so it is entirely experimental - and a compromise in some respects. These are techincal matters which ought to be fair game in this forum. I do not require anyone to believe there was a horserace to get the bomb first. But there was. The Day Man Lost - written by scholars (I learned last week from John Dower) even if not documented to scholarly standards - probably has the best summary English language account of that race as it was understood in the 1960s - when it was written. It does create the impression that research didn't get past the preliminary stages, but leaves no doubt there were reactors and good intelligence and remarkable theoretical understanding of fundamentals (better in some respects that existed anywhere else). In a hypothetical game world, it should be possible to build on that foundation given enough time and resources.

I do not believe in atomic warfare - particularly not on cities (which the game seems to require) - and note that US planning until 1945 was NOT to use them on cities (the first target was long planned to be Truk naval operating base). I also do not think dedicating a plane factory to making an atomic bomber is wise use of resources - and so it is a mistake to invest that way. But I think players should be able to do things I don't think are wise - for fun or because they believe passionately it is 'realistic.' Just as they should be able to build Shinano - as a battleship - or as a terrible carrier - in a historical scenario. Not because I recommend either.

I don't particularly worry about anyone who cannot keep things in reasonable perspective. Reasonable people with strong feelings are free to totally disregard what I say - even not to read it in the first place. And it is perfectly reasonable to say you are skeptical of what I say. But even I am regularly surprised by what comes out. I was "sure" there was no German atom bomb - to the extent I "knew" an expedition to the test site on Bornholm island could not measure anything. [I have been to ground zero of the US test - and flowers grow there - but my meter didn't read anything.] Yet I was wrong - and they did find measurable residue. I also "knew" there were "no bomb plans" in Germany other than "reactor bombs" - which were patented! Yet a gun design turned up a couple of years ago. I am regularly wrong in these matters - but not because I overestimate what is likely to be true. Rather the reverse.

What I still don't get is the concept of "an atomic bomber". The US didn't build "an atomic bomber", they built the B-29 long-ranged strategic bomber. A few were modified to carry atomic ordinance..., just as a few Lancasters were modified to carry "Tall Boys" or "Grand Slams"---but the modifications weren't that major and certainly didn't require a special production run, let alone a special factory.

So what's the point?