Atomic Bombs and Bombers

[Nikademus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_X-6

They're out there Mike.

[;)]

[DuckofTindalos]

I realize I shouldn't have called Diehl a scumbag.

I should have called him a piece of shit assweasel with less right to be here than the lowest of the lowest Chinese spambots. Go die in a fire!

[khyberbill]

I saw the runway they built for this bird in Idaho when I was going to prototype school. Impressive. As an ex-nuclear plant operator, the last place I would want to be would be on a nuclear powered plane. Either the shielding would make it too heavy to be safe, or there would not be enough shielding to be safe! It is amazing that they even considered the concept. They actually built a facility in CA with a bunch of huge air storage tanks to simulate the flow of air through the reactor etc.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_X-6

They're out there Mike.

[;)]

I know "atomic powered bombers" were proposed and tested..., but Cid is talking about planes to "drop" A-Bombs, and so was I. Maybe you should read the thread a bit more closely... [:'(]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

I know "atomic powered bombers" were proposed and tested..., but Cid is talking about planes to "drop" A-Bombs, and so was I. Maybe you should read the thread a bit more closely... [:'(]

pffff. [:'(] Cid said alot of things......unfortunately most of it was off-topic. You said "Atomic Bomber" I found you one. It had an atomic reactor....thus "Atomic-Bomber" [:)]

It was a really really good idea too!

[mdiehl]

It is amazing that they even considered the concept.

I completely agree. Funny though it's a lot more "doable" now than it was then.

Speaking of crazy, did you ever read anything on the Orion project? There's a really interedting read by George Dyson called "Project Orion: The True Story of America's Atomic Spaceship." Distilled, the idea was to propel a spaceship into the heavens riding the pressure wave of a series of ground and atmospheric nuclear detonations.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

I know "atomic powered bombers" were proposed and tested..., but Cid is talking about planes to "drop" A-Bombs, and so was I. Maybe you should read the thread a bit more closely... [:'(]

pffff. [:'(] Cid said alot of things......unfortunately most of it was off-topic. You said "Atomic Bomber" I found you one. It had an atomic reactor....thus "Atomic-Bomber" [:)]

It was a really really good idea too!

How about one that was made of atoms? That would be atomic.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
How about one that was made of atoms? That would be atomic.

Good point. From a technical perspective you are quite correct. This reminds me of the time when Albert and I had a discussion about whether Trees dream.

[khyberbill]

This reminds me of the time when Albert and I had a discussion about whether Trees dream.

Were you smoking some leaves?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: witpqs
How about one that was made of atoms? That would be atomic.

Good point. From a technical perspective you are quite correct. This reminds me of the time when Albert and I had a discussion about whether Trees dream.

If you mean Treespider, I think he does. That's how he comes up with so many good ideas.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

This reminds me of the time when Albert and I had a discussion about whether Trees dream.

Were you smoking some leaves?

no....but after reading Cid's 6000+ words I wanted too.......

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

This reminds me of the time when Albert and I had a discussion about whether Trees dream.

Were you smoking some leaves?

no....but after reading Cid's 6000+ words I wanted too.......

My favorite is Michoacan, but that reddish stuff from Oaxaca ain't bad at all.

Funny thing about atomic bombers is that they are the same as regular bombers. You don't need an atomic bomber to deploy an atomic bomb. Heck, B-29 dropped a couple and B-52 likely dropped the equivalent in gravity bombs. Shoot .. if a Japanese plane could run an Ohka, it could drop a nuke.

There ain't no such thing as an atomic bomber. There is such a thing as a strategic penetrator, but that's a function of "how" it delivers its weapons, and says absolutely nothing about "what" weapons it's looking to deliver. Unless and until the development of cruise technology, all you got and all you ever could get (and all you ever will get) was a B-24/29 with increased range, speed, sexy looks, electronics, wtfo. Whether or not a plane carries atomic ordnance, is a function of the strategic/tactical imperitive. This is a brainless exercise.

It's only people who don't understand the simple fundamental practicalities of ordinary, everyday, physical mechanics, that make such wild and apocalyptic claims .. If it's "atomic" it must be beyond our (your) understanding (not beyond mine, because I understand more than you and know just enough to lie convincingly) .. Atomic is brainless. Anyone who takes a physics course in a real college, with real physics classes, has that one wired.

[JWE]

Nope, Japan didn't need an atomic bomber; they had Yoshi Nakamura.

"Hey, Yoshi! How's it going there, Young Cadet? How is your training? I hear you are the star trainee of this year's course!"
-"Hai! Rikugun Chujo! I am honored by your interest!"
"Sit, sit, Young Cadet. Here, I am nothing but your neighbor at the sushi bar, we are friends, yes?" (tap, tap; eta momi, moto!) "So, Young Cadet, would you like some Hamachi sashimi, fresh from the Hawaiian Islands by one of our submarines, or some Toro? My friend Igurachi, behind the glass there, has some fresh barracuda that he is keeping for himself out back. Some of that could appear, with some pon sauce and radish and shaved onions .. yes?"
-"Hoh! Rikugun Chujo! I am again honored. What do you wish of me?"
"Ahh, Young Cadet, we wish you to fly a specific mission profile and turn on a specific switch at a specific point in your attack run."
-"Hoh! Rikugun Chujo! I am once again honored! But what's in it for me?"
"Ahh, Young Cadet, do you remember the Moist Flower you had occasion to pick from the garden last year in Ominato? She will change her name to Righteous Flow in your honor. And we can arrange things so you can have at least two days together; privately."
-"Hoh! Rikugun Chujo! I will do all you wish! Two days with Moist Flower? This is what dreams are made of!"
"Ahh, Young Cadet, mission profiles will be sent to your base. So nice to have you with us."

[ed]It is said that fifty-three years after his liberation he returned from the Golden Cloud, to take up once again the gauntlet of Heaven, to oppose the Order of Life and the gods who ordained it so. His followers had prayed for his return, though their prayers were sin. Prayer should not trouble one who has gone on to Nirvana, no matter what the circumstances of his going. The wearers of the saffron robe prayed, however, that He of the Sword, Manjusri, should come again among them, The Boddhisatva is said to have heard ...

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: SargeantTex

Isnt this a forum for the worlds greatest Pacific War Simulation it seems it is turning into a political\alternate history Forum!!! a million words were just said that has nothing to do with WITP AE[:)]

Surely this isn't correct. Surely the real war in the Pacific involved the first and only use of atomic bombs in history. And surely there was some concern with what the Axis were up to in that regard. Somewhere I have an official record about how Groves had reacted with "panic" to the reports about a German submarine (U-234) - which he in error called "U-235" - with an atomic cargo bound for Japan. [There is an entire USNI book on the matter, something like Germany's Last Mission to Japan by Joseph Mark Scalia, although he was not permitted to publish everything he learned about its cargo]
I believe the cargo was related to radiological weapons (developed by Germany for use on rockets and by Japan for use by aircraft) - rather than true atom bombs - but it is widely believed it was related to atomic bombs - and it appears the material may have ended in the US Hiroshima atomic bomb in fact!
[Gene Rutledge, my friend and neighbor in Anchorage, published his own book in which he says he is pretty sure this is the case: Hiroshima Bomb to Grand Peace - Library of Congress card LC-61158 - my original copy is autographed by the author] Given a game world that runs the war into 1946 (or according to the forums, potentially later) - surely use of such weapons by Japan was a possibility - particularly if Japan was not devastated by a successful strategic bombing campaign, or isolated by a successful mine warfare/submarine campaign.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I realize I shouldn't have called Diehl a scumbag.

I should have called him a piece of shit assweasel with less right to be here than the lowest of the lowest Chinese spambots. Go die in a fire!

He has as much right to be here as you do. Someday, although I doubt it, you may get that through your thick skull.

[oldman45]

particularly if Japan was not devastated by a successful strategic bombing campaign, or isolated by a successful mine warfare/submarine campaign.

That right there Cid is the weakness to any argument that Japan could develop a weapon.

[sandman455]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_X-6

They're out there Mike.

[;)]

I know "atomic powered bombers" were proposed and tested..., but Cid is talking about planes to "drop" A-Bombs, and so was I. Maybe you should read the thread a bit more closely... [:'(]

Not exactly WWII aircraft but here a few examples of aircraft designed from the start to be nuclear bombers:

A-3J (later redesignated the A-5) Vigilante - utterly useless in every other role other than looking fantastic on the flight deck. Some say it was doomed by the Polaris missile, but I'm sure all those who struggled to bring the huge bird onto the flight deck in one piece might of had a part. You could say it's stunning looks and performance gave it a few more years as a RA-5. Yet a few more ramp strikes took care of that.

A-4D-1 Skyhawk - incredibly useful design. Ed Heinemann got it right and the plane could do almost anything which is remarkable considering it was designed only to deliver a "special" tactical device on it's centerline hardpoint. It would later drop iron bombs with the best thanks to it's amazing bombsight. It could carry a buddy store for tanking duties, and easy handle the air to air mission as well. The two seat version made a fine trainer. Incredible aircraft.

B-58 Hustler - another utterly useless aircraft that simply had no peer when it came to looking good on the flight line. Looking marvelous and making a big boom - those were it's two roles. It was done in by the air to ground missile that didn't care how good looking it was.

As for making any bomber a nuclear bomber - not really. The B29's were modified extensively due to the weapon. However, the real difference wasn't the airframe but rather the aircrew. They were always hand picked and had very special training. This was far more a limitation than anything related to your delivery platform for all those who have special weapons.

And I'd bet the farm that nothing has changed in 67 years, but what do I know.

[sandman455]

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf



japanese could have delivered a radiological or biological strike, but a fission device was beyond their capability

Biological yes, Radiological NO. Simply put they did not have ready access to Uranium. Of the six know deposits of Uranium at the time of WW2 all but two sat in Allied control, the two that didn't were in Occupied Europe. There is conflicting and circumstantial evidence that the Germans tried to ship processed Uranium to Japan but the submarines disappeared or as in the case that most of the Tin-Foil Historians tie thier beliefs to the U-boat left before the processed material was loaded and then surrendered to Allied Forces a few days after V-E Day.

I was a little worried by this one since I hate to think I was working on a mod that needed even more fantasy than I had budgeted. But after some research it appears that uranium deposits aren't as rare as you think.

Japan actually had a couple that were mapped out in the 1950's and mined by the 60's for use in their own reactors. Given their location on Honshu, surrounded by other mining operations that had been in operation for centuries, it is probably safe to assume that it was not a startling new discovery. The northern part of Korea also has/had some good uranium deposits. These were known about prior to the war, but were never mined as far as we know.

As for finding and exploiting the uranium deposits, not hard at all. Indeed, Uranium 238 is more common than silver, gold and even tin. Getting enough uranium ore to support an enrichment process is just a matter of effort. Getting the enrichment process up and running to come up with enough U235 - pure fantasy. My guess is that they would have needed a coordinated effort and a good 3-4 year head start to have a chance. I can deal with that.

[mdiehl]

B-58 Hustler - another utterly useless aircraft that simply had no peer when it came to looking good on the flight line. Looking marvelous and making a big boom - those were it's two roles.

In fairness to the B-58, it was a perfect strategic nuclear penetrator for its day and age. But you are correct, it had no real use as a conventional bomber. The fuel tank actually sits underneath the bomb bay. I suppose you could fly it without the drop tank, but all you have is a fast short range conventional bomber that could not carry enough ordnance to matter.

SAMs made most bombers obsolete for the nuclear role, but we still in the USAF operate bombers designed to go in low and fast to deliver nuke payloads. The B1-B for example.

I agree with your assesment of the aesthetics. The B-58 is a beautiful plane and also kind of terrifying when you see it up close and realize its only purpose was to unleash hell on earth.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: mjk428

He has as much right to be here as you do. Someday, although I doubt it, you may get that through your thick skull.

wrong. No-one has a "right" to be on any private company's website, or a personal website. That includes your home base where i know at least one outspoken person has been banned. While it is ultimately up to matrix who is allowed the 'priviledge' of accessing this forum, Terminus and others are within their rights to point out Troll Diehl's agenda to the for being here to the unwary......which has nothing to do with AE much less scenario design and modding. You are exercising your "right" playing cheerleader. And so it goes until Matrix says otherwise.