Gnikam eht ni retsasid - Oloren USSR, Terje Axis. Oloren now permitted.

[terje439]

Turn 104

Overall
Aiaiai...
There goes that line...Thank heavens for mud which allowss me to save my units at least.
The USSR makes a total of 24 attacks, scoring 6 helds, 17 retreats and 1 rout this turn. It is a matter of time I think.

Losses
USSR : 120.000 troops, 1.343 guns, 483 AFVs, 420 AC.
Axis : 57.000 troops, 950 guns, 52 AFVs, 35 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 431.759
Vehicles : 220.539
Armaments : 277.234
Hiwi : 9

Pest control
A partisan has the nerve to appear this turn. It is promptly delt with!

[bigbaba]

would be a nice idea to seperate armament in light and heavy.

light would consist infantry weapons and panzerfaust and heavy AT and artilery.

the heavy weapon shortage of the german army is a good point and should be simulated. the shortage was so painful that the late war german anti tank defense was more or less only about panzerfaust and panzerschreck.

[hfarrish]

Definitely agree - it is a crazy outcome to have tons of SP-Art in the pools but no rifles for the infantry.

[notenome]

I've been thinking about the whole Axis armament thing, some thoughts:

1- Part of the reason German production is so low is that 41 is a bit of an aberation. After the Greek campaign there was a question of what to do with the vehicles and heavy equipment of 2nd and 5th panzer division. Hitler opted to move them by ship out of Greece instead of overland, where they were torpedoed. This meant that for the first dozen or so weeks of Barbarossa these divisionns were being built up to strength, which is why so few tanks and heavy weapons reached the front, as effectively there was an entire panzercorps on refit mode (the one that shows up on turn 13).

So this distorts early war German production. There are two possible solutions: 1) increase German production and place XXXX Panzer Corps on refit mode at the map edge frozen until turn 13. The reason to do this is that this wasn't a strategic reserve, but an existing corps that was having itself built back up. 2) Keep things as they are but give German production a boost past turn 12.

2- The game doesn't model enough the huge spike in production experienced by Germany in 43-44. As mentioned before, the allied bombing campaign's main effect was not to distort German production, but to tie down a large amount of resources (AA guns and planes) in the defense of the Reich. My brother (an economist) has a fascination with this and has read more books than I'd like to admit on the subject. Germany had access to more raw materials (except oil) than the Soviets. By 1944 German production was triple 1942 in both aircraft and tanks and SP Guns, coming within a hairs breath of matching Soviet production (see table). It was, of course, too little too late, but the Germans realized the same thing the Soviets did: They couldn't sustain their losses so the brunt of casualties had to be transferred from personnel losses to equipment losses. The amount of heavy weapons and firepower was drastically increased per division even as headcount decreased. One possible solution to this would be to introduce a 43 OOB for German infantry that decreases rifle squads and increases heavy weapons (especially machine guns), making them tougher and slower.

So yeah, there goes. Sorry for the thread highjack but it felt like a pertinent thing to post.

[notenome]

One last post:

Automatic weapons production statistics

1940 171.000
1941 325.000
1942 317.000
1943 435.000
1944 787.000

Source: "The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Third Reich" by Richard Overy

Artillery production statistics (over 37mm)

1939 ?
1940 5.000
1941 7.000
1942 12.000
1943 27.000
1944 41.000
1945 ?

Source: "The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Third Reich" by Richard Overy

If we take the production of MG42s (the backbone of German infantry post 41), 17,915 were built in 1942, 116,725 in 1943, 211,806 in 1944, and 61,877 in 1945 (source: wikipedia! Too lazy to find a proper source at the moment). By mid 1943 terje has only produced 418 of these (I'm assuming the larger number are MG43s). This means he's only producing less ( 116,725 / 2 + 17,915 = 76, 277 * .7 [production to other fronts] = 53,394. 418 / 53394 = .00782) than 1% the historical amount. If 9927 is the MG42 production, then its .185919, or 19%. Either way he's severly underproducing, which may not be an armament shortage, but an OOB problem, as the number of machine guns in infantry divisions rose dramatically from 43 onwards to compensate for manpower shortages.

[traemyn]

Those "Tanks and self-propelled guns" numbers look funny to me. Just from a quick search on production numbers of tanks/afvs, it seems like you are listing a total per year for the Soviets and a running total for the Germans.

http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/Tank ... ny_ww2.htm
If you add up the numbers in 1944 they don't come close to your numbers.


http://www.ospreypublishing.com/article ... onslaught/

"In comparison with the figures for 1942, German production of AFVs during 1943, for example, increased from 3,118 to 11,546 vehicles."

What am I missing?

[Kronolog]

If we take the production of MG42s (the backbone of German infantry post 41), 17,915 were built in 1942, 116,725 in 1943, 211,806 in 1944, and 61,877 in 1945 (source: wikipedia! Too lazy to find a proper source at the moment). By mid 1943 terje has only produced 418 of these (I'm assuming the larger number are MG43s). This means he's only producing less ( 116,725 / 2 + 17,915 = 76, 277 * .7 [production to other fronts] = 53,394. 418 / 53394 = .00782) than 1% the historical amount. If 9927 is the MG42 production, then its .185919, or 19%. Either way he's severly underproducing, which may not be an armament shortage, but an OOB problem, as the number of machine guns in infantry divisions rose dramatically from 43 onwards to compensate for manpower shortages.

But those 418 aren't really machine-guns, they are MG-sections. The number doesn't include the organic machine-guns included in the infantry, panzer grenadier and pioneer sections, nor those fitted to AFVs.

[Walloc]

Was about to say the same. Tallied all Pz III through Pz VI production, plus all major jgpz 38t through JgpzV and stug types for the entire war and i got up too 37k'ish.
Dunno what Overy includes in his numbers but they seem off or includes stuff not immidate apparent. If u look in game the weekly AFV production is many times higher in '44 opposed to '41 as it should be.

About his Artillery numbers they include Anti air artillery so if u look at actual gun making it to the east front those figurs are some what misleading as more and more of the production is AA guns, used in the defence of the reich.
According to Overy him self 2/3 of all artillery ammo produced in '44 is for AA artillery.
Another point where things get to generic in game, but it is as, as it is. Supply being supply no matter. Germans never had a lack of small arms ammo, but alrdy from '43 and more so in '44+ widespread lack of artilley ammo has a big impact on the firepower of the german artillery. The average daily alloted ammo supply is between 20 to 25% of the needed for all artillery in the 7th army in normandy. Doesnt help to have a tube if u got nothing comming out of it.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[terje439]

Turn 105

Disclaimer
Did not really find anything that was worth a picture this turn.

Overall
I try to push the enemy back from the hexes they took in my line. I would have been better off trying to scare them with harsh language it seems. We launch 6 attacks and score no better than 4 helds, 1 retreat and 1 rout. Depressing.
The Italians withdraw this turn. Hmm that ain't good either, need to find myself some new diggers...

Losses
USSR : 103.000 troops, 1.131 guns, 299 AFVs, 247 AC.
Axis : 35.000 troops, 381 guns, 86 AFVs, 6 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 438.225
Vehicles : 225.538
Armaments : 295.960
Hiwi : 0

Pest control
Our rear area units chase away the one partisan that does appear.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Was about to say the same. Tallied all Pz III through Pz VI production, plus all major jgpz 38t through JgpzV and stug types for the entire war and i got up too 37k'ish.
Dunno what Overy includes in his numbers but they seem off or includes stuff not immidate apparent. If u look in game the weekly AFV production is many times higher in '44 opposed to '41 as it should be.

About his Artillery numbers they include Anti air artillery so if u look at actual gun making it to the east front those figurs are some what misleading as more and more of the production is AA guns, used in the defence of the reich.
According to Overy him self 2/3 of all artillery ammo produced in '44 is for AA artillery.
Another point where things get to generic in game, but it is as, as it is. Supply being supply no matter. Germans never had a lack of small arms ammo, but alrdy from '43 and more so in '44+ widespread lack of artilley ammo has a big impact on the firepower of the german artillery. The average daily alloted ammo supply is between 20 to 25% of the needed for all artillery in the 7th army in normandy. Doesnt help to have a tube if u got nothing comming out of it.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

Good call - I had the same thought, those figures seemed way too high to me (particularly armor) and its pretty well known that the Wehrmacht was desperately short of artillery and AT and, as you point out, ammo for such.

[terje439]

Turn 106

Overall
Although the number of helds my troops managed to inflict on the enemy is very good, I think this is the turn that broke the southern defences. No proper fallbackline now before the German border, not good. And what is even worse, our counterattacks once more fail miserably. I am now forced to deploy panzers on the frontline once more. Things are not looking good.
The USSR launch a total of 25 attacks, causing 12 helds, 12 retreats and 1 rout. We tried 5 attacks, but only scored 3 helds, 1 retreat and 1 rout.

Losses
USSR : 148.000 troops, 1.870 guns, 794 AFVs, 588 AC.
Axis : 60.000 troops, 1.041 guns, 104 AFVs, 66 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 446.349
Vehicles : 232.786
Armaments : 273.800
Hiwi : 0

[notenome]

True but I thought the artillery/AT shortage was due to assets being spread out amongst fronts/units etc. Glantz describes a battle in 44 where Model stopped a Russian advance cold by scrounging up every AT gun he could find, coming up with several hundred.

Also: Perhaps the discrepancy in the AFV numbers were refits? Germans tended to count refit tanks/td/etc as new vehicles.

[terje439]

Turn 107

Overall
The USSR traps 4 divisions (3 German and 1 Rumanian), and our attempt to relieve them fails (2xCV, 2x#troops [:(]).
There are ALOT of USSR troops in the south, so all new units are promptly sent there to help buy us time.
A total of 19 attacks were made by the USSR, causing 6 helds, 12 retreats and 1 rout. We try to counterattack, launching 3 attacks, resulting in 2 helds and 1 rout. I really do not see any point in counterattacking anymore, even if we do cause a rout we will lose as many troops as the USSR in doing so...

Losses
USSR : 126.000 troops, 1.503 guns, 578 AFVs, 563 AC.
Axis : 51.000 troops, 894 guns, 65 AFVs, 11 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 457.740
Vehicle : 239.464
Armaments : 255.131
Hiwi : 487
The question, when will I reach 500k manpower? [;)]
The increase in Hiwi's is due to the destruction of 6 forts in the south.

Pest control
Our cavalry deals with all 7 partisans that appear.

[terje439]

Turn 108

Overall
Another three divisions are trapped, but we fall back in the most threathened area (4-5 hexes) to another line where we will make yet another stand. For now I am hoping to hold another few months, it will be close but it MIGHT work. If so, we will fall back a long way to shorthen the line once more. This is not about victory points, it is about keeping virtual Adolf alive as long as possible now.
The USSR manage 26 attacks this turn, scoring 7 helds, 16 retreats, 1 rout and 2 surrenders. We on the other hand make only 4 attacks, and score 2 helds, 1 retreat and 1 rout.

Losses
USSR : 131.000 troops, 1.575 guns, 624 AFVs, 747 AC.
Axis : 75.000 troops, 1.196 guns, 63 AFVs, 40 AC.

Units lost
The following untis surrendered to the USSR this turn;
-20th Inf div
-44th Inf div
-72nd Inf div
-13th Rum Inf div.

Pools
Manpower : 472.177
Vehicles : 245.179
Armaments : 244.736
Hiwi : 974
(once more the Hiwis are a result of disbanded forts).

Pest control
5 partisans appear, and we flush them out.

OOB/Losses
Not factoring in production numbers, at this rate the USSR will run out of tanks long before we do, atleast that is something... They have lost over 5.000 T34-1942s so far...

[terje439]

Turn 109

Overall
Not a good turn even if the number of attacks are down. Our line is crumbling it seems. Guess I will not be able to hold it untill mud, our situation is deteriorating every turn. Soon I will have to fall back to Germany I guess.
The USSR makes 19 attacks, scoring 5 helds, 13 retreats and 1 rout. Our 3 attacks ammount to 2 retreats and 1 rout.

Losses
USSR : 118.000 troops, 1.355 guns, 529 AFVs, 422 AC.
Axis : 72.000 troops, 954 guns, 64 AFVs, 25 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 473.652
Vehicles : 249.711
Armaments : 250.313
Hiwi : 64

Pest control
We deal with the three partisans that shows up.

[terje439]

Turn 110

Overall
Nothing really changes, but we cut off three USSR tank corps. The enemy will open the pocket next turn, but atleast it is nice to once more see surrounded USSR troops.
The USSR launch 15 arracks, and score 2 helds, 10 retreats, 1 rout and 2 surrenders. The surrenders came when the USSR tank corps pushed through our line and found two undefended forts.
We make 2 attacks and score 1 held and 1 retreat. The held result inflicted 50% of our panzer losses this turn...

Losses
USSR : 106.000 troops, 1.160 guns, 450 AFVs, 336 AC.
Axis : 41.000 troops, 676 guns, 45 AFVs, 93 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 481.394
Vehicle : 255.350
Armaments : 257.525
Hiwi : 113

Pest control
We deal with all 5 partisans that appear.

[terje439]

Turn 111

Overall
1/6th of the way there I guess
More importantly, 11 or 12 turns untill mud. Holding this line untill then would be very nice.
The USSR make some attacks and reestablish a link with their surrounded units. We do however push the new USSR troops back and reestablish the small pocket. This time it is better held as well, so one lucky die roll now, and we might destroy alot of tanks next turn. We will see.
A total of 17 USSR attacks results in 1 held, 14 retreats and 2 routs. We make 5 attacks, and for once they all succeed, as we record 4 retreats and 1 rout.

Losses
USSR : 125.000 troops, 1.514 guns, 547 AFVs, 468 AC.
Axis : 52.000 troops, 853 guns, 107 AFVs, 10 AC.

Pools
Manpower : 489.135
Vehicles : 258.527
Armaments : 254.184
Hiwi : 1

Pest control
All three partisans are delt with.

Disclaimer
Sorry had a screenshot of total losses, but forgot to paste it into paint before using copy again...

[RCHarmon]

I am wondering about the condition of your infantry divisions. How is moral looking overall? Have the rebuilt divisions that were lost in the blizzard gained any increase in moral?

How many of his attacks are coming from Rifle corps? You should post a couple battle results screens to give an idea what your front line is facing?

If you cannot hold the pocket and make them surrender maybe you should just route them out.

[Peltonx]

The game is played on a knifes edge and there is only room for one side on the edge.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: RCH

I am wondering about the condition of your infantry divisions. How is moral looking overall? Have the rebuilt divisions that were lost in the blizzard gained any increase in moral?

How many of his attacks are coming from Rifle corps? You should post a couple battle results screens to give an idea what your front line is facing?

If you cannot hold the pocket and make them surrender maybe you should just route them out.

The units lost in the Blizzard are probably the best infantry divisions I field at the moment. This is because they were allowed to rebuild back in Germany, wheras the units on the line are constantly worn down.

Most of his attacks are from corps sized units, as to rifle corps, I have not looked at that, I do however see alot of tank/mech corps at the front. Will make the next screenshot one of battle results.

True, but IF it holds, I get to destroy some units [:)] If I fail this time, there is nothing to do but to rout them as you say.


Terje