Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

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LoBaron
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I love looking through SuluSea's comparisons, and after starting Chris Shores' Air war for Burma am surprised at the regular frontline use of the Curtiss Mohawk.

Checking the stats they are very competitive against most Oscar models and the A6M2 Zeke, the japanese have a manouvre advantage but are slower (a bit), less durable and only the A6M2 equals the firepower. I believe the biggest advantage for the japanese fighters is the their higher experience ratings.

How do players use the Mohawk?

I have usually assigned them rear area duties.

The replacement rate is so bad that Mowhawk squadrons attrit extremely fast. This is the main disadvantage IMHO.
Also, but this goes from memory as I am not near tracker, I think their climb rate is sub par.
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I have usually assigned them rear area duties.

The replacement rate is so bad that Mowhawk squadrons attrit extremely fast. This is the main disadvantage IMHO.
+1

+1

ANd their armament is quite poor as well.
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

On why the Hurri suffered so badly in Burma, as always lots of factors. Japanese pilot experience was one of them, as was the fact that they faced the definitive Ki-43 varient in the improved and refined Ki-43-II. Lack of pilot exp was a factor on the RAF side but not enough to explain solely the disprecency. I agree with Wing Commander Paul Richy's accessment when he went to Burma as a "troubleshooter" He noted that the Hurricane had similar tools and capabiities to other 1st gen Allied planes that could be competetive against the Japanese and that in his vew the main reason was tactics used by the RAF there. Unfortunatley being an outsider and critical in his report, the local RAF commanders pushed back.....and the Hurr continued to suffer. Even after Spitfires deployed in numbers though, despite their "technical" superiority (particularily the Mark VIII) the crack Sentais in Burma were briefly able to hold their own but could no longer gain full air superiority.....but neither could the RAF....so a stalemate ensued. Then the numbers began to go against the JAAF.

Or to quote Claire Chennault, "NEVER dogfight with a Jap!". Too bad the game forces the Brits to ignore this simple lesson as in truth most of the Japanese training superiority was totally neutralized by this single tactic.
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Or to quote Claire Chennault, "NEVER dogfight with a Jap!". Too bad the game forces the Brits to ignore this simple lesson as in truth most of the Japanese training superiority was totally neutralized by this single tactic.

The Japanese pilots were far more than tail chasers and no one tactic neutralizes an entire nation's training. Read Dan Ford's book on the Flying Tigers. Contained within were interviews with the pilots who said that in the heat of battle they largely forgot Chenault's lectures. Their performance was a mix of guts, ambush tactics, the chaos of battlefield, better early warning and choosing when and where to fight. There was no simple formula for winning, which was what the RAF command in Burma shot back at Ritchie after his condemnation. Add to that the JAAF, like the JNAF also used energy tactics. A often not mentioned advantage the Ki-43II possessed in combination with good situational awareness was the ability to quickly climb after spotting an RAF formation to gain altitude advantage, then bounce them.

Still....all that said, like i mentioned, i agree with Ritchie's accessment that overall tactics were a large part of the problem. Unlike the situation in the solomons however, the RAF had a huge country to cover and a variety of offensive and defensive mission profiles to fill. Not knowing where and when the enemy might strike or appear made things alot more complicated. The JAAF used shuttle techniques to constantly shift airgroups from airbases around Rangoon to Mandalay and such. Finally the Sentais in Burma contained some of their best pilots. The lopsided kill raito also helped ease attrition somewhat for a while. It took until late 44 with a huge influx of numbers before the Allies were able to finally start succeeding in catching the JAAF fighters in vulnerable situations (landing, taking off.....on the ground)

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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by Q-Ball »

The real difference between Japanese and Allied aircraft development, IMO, is in the engines. Allied engines progressed rapidly in HP, and Japanese engine designs didn't. Better engines = faster, more guns, more armor on the airframe
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I have usually assigned them rear area duties.

The replacement rate is so bad that Mowhawk squadrons attrit extremely fast. This is the main disadvantage IMHO.
+1

+1

ANd their armament is quite poor as well.

Agreed as well. Good trainers... I guess you could use them in a pinch over other, worse aircraft.
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by Nikademus »

My only cavet to that would be that Japanese engines "did" also develop in the same way...but slower due to resource issues. The Homare engine, properly built with it's original 100 octane specification produced a competetive HP. Only a few Ki-84's served in Burma, a drop in the bucket compared to the Allied hordes of Thunderbolts, Mustangs, Lightnings and Spitfires.

I was suprised though at how gamely the JAAF fought against both the USAAF and RAF in Burma till the numbers game and lack of support from Japan turned the tide to the point of "why bother taking off?"
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by mdiehl »

historically:

the real reason japan did well in the first few months
is the massive difference in experience level of the pilots.


Ah, no.

HistoricallY:

In point of fact, Japanese pilots did not have a whole lot of combat experience. And many of the RAF pilots in the CBI area had plenty of combat experience from the preceding 2.3 years of war.

The difference between the early war Japanese (say... prior to May 1942) and the later Japanese was that the earlier campaigns were conducted with an enormous logistical and pre-preparation advantage favoring the Japanese. Once they began to reach beyond their logistical capability, they were trounced.

It was never about "experience." It was about very good Japanese planning and logistics leading up to Dec 7. They showed up with solid operational plans, prepositioned assets, and the supplies to do the job. Once they hit the edge of their initial operational plans, and began to operate in areas where they lacked good logistics and prepositioned assets, they regularly got beat up.
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by Historiker »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
historically:

the real reason japan did well in the first few months
is the massive difference in experience level of the pilots.


Ah, no.

HistoricallY:

In point of fact, Japanese pilots did not have a whole lot of combat experience. And many of the RAF pilots in the CBI area had plenty of combat experience from the preceding 2.3 years of war.

The difference between the early war Japanese (say... prior to May 1942) and the later Japanese was that the earlier campaigns were conducted with an enormous logistical and pre-preparation advantage favoring the Japanese. Once they began to reach beyond their logistical capability, they were trounced.

It was never about "experience." It was about very good Japanese planning and logistics leading up to Dec 7. They showed up with solid operational plans, prepositioned assets, and the supplies to do the job. Once they hit the edge of their initial operational plans, and began to operate in areas where they lacked good logistics and prepositioned assets, they regularly got beat up.
Sure!

Nothing is more important in dogfights then a pilot knowing he'll have nice fresh bedsheets and a warm meal once he's back at the base. Once the Japanese didn't have ice cold beer and some whores for the pilots they weren't in the mood to win any more. Once again in dogfights, they simply decided to die!
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


both the allies and japanese had fuel

both the allies and japanese had ammo

and the japanese shot down the allies planes, with just a pair of 7.7mm guns

so.. yes.. they had better marksmanship, better aerobatic skill, navigation, etc

and they had been fighting for 4 years against the chinese (add up all the planes the chinese had during
those 4 years, and the number of troops killed on the ground by japanese planes, and you will see how experienced
the japanese pilots were)

the war did not begin on Dec 7, 1941


once those pilots died however, the tactical ineffectiveness of the japanese planes was made evident during 1943

and their approach to making a fighter the jack of all trades did not help

who needs 600L of fuel in your zero, when you are fighting B-24s above rabaul?
what use is maneouverability against bombers?

if the japanese were able to take an airframe to its extreme, and make a good escort fighter
why not the other extreme and make a good interceptor?

the Tojo was the most advanced airframe design until the bearcat, just poorly configured


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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by mdiehl »

both the allies and japanese had fuel


The japanese had more fuel on location, better airbases from which to operate, better resupply to those airbases, and more stockpiled spare parts. They also had superior numbers and a war plan that was well-planned, promply executed.

Against that, the allies had pre-located very little in the way of supplies, spare parts, and service crew, and operated from facilities that were very crude. Wear and tear on allied a.c. under the circumstances was much greater.
so.. yes.. they had better marksmanship, better aerobatic skill, navigation, etc


The problem for your claim is that there is no evidence for any of those suppositions. Indeed, there is compelling evidence that Japanese pilots were worse at leading their targets than allied a.c. Certainly USN pilots were much better trained at deflection shooting. Likewise, there is no evidence of particularly bad allied navigation or good japanese navigation.

The open question you want to ask is whether or not it was JUST better pre-located assets that helped the Japanese win, or whether other factors came into play. I can only note that once the Japanese ran into allied forces that were positioned in places with strategic depth and good logistical support, they lost badly.
and they had been fighting for 4 years against the chinese (add up all the planes the chinese had during
those 4 years, and the number of troops killed on the ground by japanese planes, and you will see how experienced
the japanese pilots were)


The Chinese air force ceased to exist as a force in 1938. The campaign against them lasted a bit more than 28 days. While one may note that flying time helps, the general supposition that flying time in combat against Chinese pilots flying Polikarpovs was helpful when Japanese pilots ran into RAF pilots in Hurricanes is suspect. Different planes, different enemy pilots, different tactics.

Arguably, whatever experience the Japanese did gain in China served them poorly in the naval campaigns. Japanese zero drivers were badly defeated in the Coral Sea, Midway, and Guadalcanal campaigns when they flew against USN pilots -- to the tune of about 1.8 Zeroes shot down for each F4F shot down when you just count combat between Zeroes and F4Fs.

Nor were they particularly successful against USAAF/RAAF pilots once radar detection became commonplace in Australia and New Guinea.
once those pilots died however, the tactical ineffectiveness of the japanese planes was made evident during 1943


Long before 1943. The weaknesses of the A6M2 were apparent by the end of May 1942.
who needs 600L of fuel in your zero, when you are fighting B-24s above rabaul?
what use is maneouverability against bombers?


Oh true. On that we agree. As an interceptor against heavy bombers, it was weak. The Japanese never developed an effective interceptor for that role.
the Tojo was the most advanced airframe design until the bearcat, just poorly configured


The Tojo was inferior in airspeed, range, armament, defensive armor, dive, high altitude, and mid-high altitude climb, to all of the following: the Spitfire IX+, the FW-190D, the P-51, the P-47. the F4U, the Hawker Tempest, and the Lavochkin La-5+ series.
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by mdiehl »

Nothing is more important in dogfights then a pilot knowing he'll have nice fresh bedsheets and a warm meal once he's back at the base. Once the Japanese didn't have ice cold beer and some whores for the pilots they weren't in the mood to win any more. Once again in dogfights, they simply decided to die!

When fighting a war, it helps if your very high performance very high maintenance engines have a sufficient supply of spare parts such that operational wear can be adequately addressed by maintenance. As a general rule, that is why, for example, the USAAF logistical train included vast numbers of people to inspect, maintain, and supply air units, as was the case throughout WW2, EXCEPT in the early days of the PTO conflict (in which there were no such vast support trains pre-positioned, and no time, in the face of a well-executed Japanese plan, to put such assets in place, in Burma or Indonesia).

Maintenance matters.
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by rms1pa »

Maintenance matters.

i occupy space and have mass, therefor i matter.

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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by mdiehl »

And I often stumble over cracks in the sidewalk when walking at high speed because of my big feet.

Therefore....

I Clodius.

[;)]
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


the Tojo was the most advanced airframe design until the bearcat, just poorly configured


will clarify

the concept of the large radial engine, with the smallest possible fuselage and tiny wing area (15m2? [X(])
was far ahead of its time

while the allies were making large, clumsy fighters such as the P-47 and F6F (whose bad design concepts were mitigated by superb engines and fuel)

finally the allies put together the Bearcat - everything the tojo was supposed to be, but wasn't



the tojo concept was not capitalized upon by the japanese, and it was encumbered with a large amount of fuel, and used a low power 1500 hp engine,
while the Ha-32-21 was available from early 1943, and the Ha-43 from early 1945


they actively chose lighter, less powerful engines to keep weight down, and to keep wing loading small (i.e. A6M was designed for the Zuisei, instead of the Kinsei engine)

while at the same time, the japanese liked their fuel and range, even in specialist fighters like the tojo and nick.

so in AE there is a whole pile of japanese fighters with about 10 hex range, low top speed, mediocre firepower, and its even worse
later in the war i.e. the N1K George, the jack of all trades (sure we can have lots of fuel.. and guns.. and armor.. and fly 360mph while the enemy flies 420mph)

and the ridiculous A6M5c (336 mph in 1944??)

reading about the development of japanese designs, it is made clear that the designs themselves were excellent and revolutionary in many ways

but their configuration was marred by an awful bucreacracy that argued about what components are needed in a fighter, and finally settled on putting them all in the same fighter

contrasted with the european types that put performance first

my favourite example is the La-5








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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by mdiehl »

the concept of the large radial engine, with the smallest possible fuselage and tiny wing area (15m2? )
was far ahead of its time


Ah no. That concept was pushed to extremis, and found utterly wanting in merit, with the Gee Bee racer in the 1930s.
while the allies were making large, clumsy fighters such as the P-47 and F6F (whose bad design concepts were mitigated by superb engines and fuel)


The P-47 was designed as a Fighter Bomber. The F6 as a carrier fighter. Completely different demands from the land-based Tojo. Neither the P-47 nor F6 were particularly clumsy, despite their size. They indeed reflect the direction that all SUCCESSFUL (which the Ki-44 was not) designs incorporated from early 1942 until the 1990s. To wit: More Thrust Wins Fights.

The P-47 could outroll a Ki-44 at high altitude. It could out speed it and outdive it too. In WW2, given the absence of A2A missiles, the overwhelmingly important deciding factor was airspeed. An inexperience mid-war US or UK army pilot in a faster plane like a P-40E or Spitfire was more dangerous to a very experienced Japanese pilot in a highly maneuverable airplane, than vice versa. Maneuverability counted for very little in the end.
finally the allies put together the Bearcat - everything the tojo was supposed to be, but wasn't

I would not view the Bearcat as the supreme piston engined fighter. In many ways, if it was an Interceptor you really wanted, the best thing going in 1945 may have been the P-63 Kingcobra. It packed alot more firepower and was all around a better plane.
the tojo concept was not capitalized upon by the japanese, and it was encumbered with a large amount of fuel, and used a low power 1500 hp engine, while the Ha-32-21 was available from early 1943, and the Ha-43 from early 1945


The Ha-32-21 and Ha-43 were not very reliable engines at all.
they actively chose lighter, less powerful engines to keep weight down, and to keep wing loading small (i.e. A6M was designed for the Zuisei, instead of the Kinsei engine)


That was the working design premise for almost every Japanese fighter of the war. It reflected a really poor strategic choice to emphasize maneiverability and low production cost over airspeed and survivability.
reading about the development of japanese designs, it is made clear that the designs themselves were excellent and revolutionary in many ways

I can't agree. Obsolete in pursuit of a flawed doctrine better describes all of their aircraft designs, IMO.
contrasted with the european types that put performance first

Well, yeah. Isn't that the point though? Even the Ki-44 was not the right plane for any job. Adding more engine, it still would not have been the right plane for any job. Can you imagine it in ground attack roles? No of course not. So it stunk as a fighter, stunk as an interceptor, and stunk in surface attack.
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNjt7Efr ... ure=relmfu


Bearcat / Tojo --> power to weight ratio [&o]
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


would say the Reisen (with a proper config) would be among the best fighter vs fighter

Tojo the best interceptor (until the bearcat comes online)


ground attack was never strong point of any japanese design, agreed
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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


Ha-32-21 was an excellent, 1850hp high reliability engine that was put into the B6N, J2M, H8K, and G4M

not good when a turbo was attached (like the early Raiden types)

Ha-43 was good as well, but the factories were blasted apart by B-29s and earthquakes

Nakajima radials like the Mamoru and Homare were bad.


The tojo airframe was basically identical to the La-5, but since it was smaller with better materials (all duralumin verus wood),
with a good engine it would be slightly faster and of course climb a lot better

remember than the effects on performace on a small and light airframe are a lot more significant when you add fuel and guns,
than for an already heavy airframe like the P-47. Putting those 8x12.7mm didn't really hurt its performance

so the tojo needed to really be a model of the opposite extreme of the zero, the absolute minimum of fuel (like the La-5)
with maximum point of contact performance to defend the japanese aerodromes



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RE: Comparison - Mohawk v Oscar/Zeke

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Nothing is more important in dogfights then a pilot knowing he'll have nice fresh bedsheets and a warm meal once he's back at the base. Once the Japanese didn't have ice cold beer and some whores for the pilots they weren't in the mood to win any more. Once again in dogfights, they simply decided to die!

When fighting a war, it helps if your very high performance very high maintenance engines have a sufficient supply of spare parts such that operational wear can be adequately addressed by maintenance. As a general rule, that is why, for example, the USAAF logistical train included vast numbers of people to inspect, maintain, and supply air units, as was the case throughout WW2, EXCEPT in the early days of the PTO conflict (in which there were no such vast support trains pre-positioned, and no time, in the face of a well-executed Japanese plan, to put such assets in place, in Burma or Indonesia).

Maintenance matters.

Yes, we too often get hung up on paper specifics when examining our favorite aircraft. The fact was that aircraft engines were very sensitive and demanding and began degrade as soon as the started to get a few hours service time on them. The stats we quote are ideal "out of the box" figures usually made during testing under ideal conditions. It is doubtful that any plane in the field ever flew at the top speeds we see when we look up the stats for them. It did not take long for a WWII aircraft to wear out and the side that could provide the best fuel, maintenance and flow of spare parts had the edge. All fighters for each side would feel the effect of service in the field. However on average you would expect the average Japanese aircraft to be performing at speeds further below ideal than the average US fighter. They simply just did not come close in the ability to service their aircraft. On paper the zero might have a slight speed edge on the wildcat but I suspect in the field that this edge may have been lost or at least equal in many theaters.

But it makes perfect sense to me that in the initial days of the war that Japan held the edge. The Allied just were not prepared and were losing territory, equipment and bases at a very fast pace. This had to degrade the fighting capability of aircraft very quickly.
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