Essential Aircraft

[GaryChildress]

Been messing around a little more with my own mod. In this one the Germans and Italians knock the British out of North Africa and back toward Karachi. I'm giving the Eurpean Axis an entry point on the Horne of Africa. From there they can attack toward India.

The game will start in early 1942. Probably January or February. The Japanese will attack Pearl of course. However, they will have a bit of fighting to do to get to the DEI since the French will still be in Indochina. No Vichy in this game. Instead the French colonies continue on their own like the DEI did after the fall of Holland.

The game will extend from early 1942 to 1945. I'm wondering what would be the most essential German and Italian aircraft to have present in the game during that time period. Both the Germans and Italians are going to have carriers and Battleships present. Hitler decides to pursue a conventional navy to counter the British. There is no Great Depression and most of the powers that be get most of what they want in warships. And there are no treaties of any kind limiting anyone.

Any ideas on what kinds of aircraft I should do for the Germans and Italians? Below is a rough idea of what I think the Germans will need. It includes a hypothetical line of naval aircraft for their carriers.

[pharmy]

FW-200 or depending on time period Ju290 for NAVs? BV 222 Viking for additional LR transport -small numbers and BV 138 as the standard PT aircraft (at least squadron strength)?

Edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_115 - especially useful in witp

[wdolson]

Why the Me-109T and Ju-87C, are you going to include the Graf Zeppelin?

Bill

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Why the Me-109T and Ju-87C, are you going to include the Graf Zeppelin?

Bill

Yes. In this alternative Universe there are 4 Graf Zeppelin class CVs and 4 Seydlitz class CVLs. Not all of them will show up in the Pacific though.

[Shark7]

A few I'd add in:

Do-17 Medium Bomber
Bf-110C/G Heavy Fighter/Night Fighter
Me 323 Gigant
FW-189 Uhu

[GaryChildress]

Excellent! Thanks for some great ideas! Also what about the Italians. I'm especially unfamiliar with them and would like to know what the most common aircraft would be for them 1942-1945?

Also, does anyone happen to know what types of aircraft the Italian Navy might have adopted if they had used carriers? Were there any prototypes?

[moonraker65]

The Trimotors most probably for the Italians. S M 79 was a formidable Torpedo Bomber in the Med. Cant Z 1007 B is another likelyhood.

[wdolson]

One source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_aircraft_carrier_Aquila#Aircraft

[pharmy]

It might also be worth modding in, not just in this scenario but generally the small monsoon group operating from Penang along with a tanker (http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?133677) and another German merchant ship as an AS at Georgetown
http://www.uboat.net/ops/monsun3.htm
http://www.uboataces.com/articles-fareast-boats4.shtml

Just 5 submarines - but all with higher experience crews and a bit better mvr (they were type XIs not VIIs, but still divespeed should have been faster then the a lot of the Japanese subs)

[dwg]

The Italians would still have the Fiat CR.42 Falco biplane in service as a fighter in 1942, and it would be as easy for that to have a carrier version as it was for the Gladiator/Sea Gladiator. There was also an experimental seaplane version, the ICR.42, and the CR.42 was also used as a night-fighter.

Better monoplane fighters were increasingly replacing the Falcos, though it wasn't until mid-war that they had anything really competitive.

Fiat G.50 Freccia, Macchi C.200 Saetta and a handful of Reggiane Re.2000 Falcos would be the early aircraft. The carrier variant already mentioned, the Re.2000 Cat., was fitted for catapulting and was used on the Italian battleships - though since it wasn't a floatplane it had to ditch or land ashore.

Next generation fighters were the Macchi C.202 Folgore and the Re.2001 Falco II. Final generation were the Fiat G.55 Centauro, Macchi C.205 Veltro and Re.2005 Saggitario.

For bombers there was the Fiat BR.20 Cicogna medium twin, which by 1942 was being relegated to maritime patrol and anti-partisan ops, limited numbers of the Caproni Ca.310 and the Ca.314, which also had maritime patrol and torpedo bomber variants. The Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 and SM.84 and the CANT Z.1007 and Z.1018 tri-motors were probably the most significant types, while the Piaggio P.108 was a capable 4 engined type. The SM.81 and SM.82 were tri-motor bomber-transports, though mainly used in the transport role.

The CANT Z.506 Airone was significant as a tri-motor seaplane torpedo bomber/maritime reconnaissance aircraft, with around 100 in service.

[pharmy]

A nice link
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthr ... -Were-they

I think the main problem would be balance, in a/c it would definitely introduce a new element to the game, that of two really effective torpedo bombers : the Ju88 and H-111 variants and the SM79
I think other then the longer range a/c, and limited units (specialized KG from Luftwaffe, a couple of squadrons of Sparvieros, bf110s, and flying boats the expeditionary units should be limited to what an imaginary Italian/German CV would have carried) Also I think the FW190 Jabos - the F and G would be more appropriate - F even had two rucksatze (modification packs to carry torpedoes- the U2 and U3)


And you would have to mod in their torpedoes/flying bombs- I know the Germans used hexanite - which is kg to kg roughly equivalent to IJN torps and the Italians I think used something similar to torpex - equivalent to US torpedoes
but if you include the later german weapons - you are talking about major accuracy gains as well
Also the Ju87 would need a separate device for its bombs, as their accuracy was phenomenal compared to any other DB. Its a really tough task.

[Dili]

In 1943 the Italian bomb wing was practically reduced to Torpedo bombers.

In 1943 Italians had the 5 serie of Fighters: Fiat G.55, Reggiane Re2005 and Macchi 205(V with Macchi 202 wings or the version N with longer wings for better high altitude) Macchi was more common and the Fiat was the overall better with upgrade capability that the Germans considered it for Luftwaffe. Reggiane was the faster one could get more than 900km/h in a dive but was fragile for what it could do. So i would say Macchi 205 and Fiat G.55.

For evolution of G.55, G.55S with torpedo and G.56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_G.55#Fiat_G.56

Re.2001 is the fighter and attack carrier plane. It could have a 630kg armor piercing bomb in attack or the Silurotto-small torpedo.

And Ro.43 was the old shipborne floatplane. Italy didn't recover the flotplanes, they went back to the naval base or anchorage.
The Italians battleships in 1943 had the Re2000 as emergency fighter due to lack of carrier it had no floats and went to a land base.


Fighter Bomber Re 2002, other older options ex.fighters: Cr.42, G.50 and Mc.200.

Bombers i would say the Cant Z.1018, Cant Z.1007 ter(III), Piaggio 108 - and the Piaggio 108 with 102mm gun would be good chrome plus the good old S.79 ter(III) that still was in combat in 1944.

Patrol Floatplanes the Rs.14 and Z.506 but i would say that italians by 1943 already prefered to use bombers for offensive patrols. Floatplanes only for coastal work and anti submarine. Also for anti submarine Caproni Ca.314 and Fiat.Br.20 a former bomber.
Transport: Sm.82, New in 1943: Piaggio 108 transport version and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.95

Notable Weapons: Silurotto - small torpedo for fighter bombers http://www.aereimilitari.org/forum/topi ... rimentale/
Fighter like G.55 also could take a torpedo even a big one.
There is also the Italian circular torpedo Motobomba in both airforces, called LT350 in Luftwaffe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe6ovQPyiuk


There are many concepts-prototypes not operational:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.91
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.92
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoia-Marchetti_SM.93
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/italtwin.html
A cheap wooden fighter said to be ordered into production that didn't happened by Germans and Japanese:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosini_SAI.403_Dardo

If you want chrome for long range and probably impossible to work in game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.511 with chariot submarines...



A final note for Germans if naval combat is expected the Do.217K with Hs293 missile and Fritz-X guided bomb would be there.

[pharmy]

For a list of French planes the site below is a good starting point

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/2-A ... planes.htm

I think these planes bring a lot of to underdeveloped SOPAC bases with small or no airports
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/2-A ... te-298.htm
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/2-A ... -H.258.htm
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/2-A ... /LN-40.htm
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/2-A ... izerte.htm
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/2-A ... eO-H46.htm
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/2-A ... te-290.htm

[wdolson]

There are also the Do-217 and He-177 with the radio controlled anti shipping missiles.

Bill

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

There are also the Do-217 and He-177 with the radio controlled anti shipping missiles.

Bill

Is AE capable of representing radio controlled anti-shipping missles? I guess it would just be a matter of giving the missle a high accuracy rating compared to other devices?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: wdolson

There are also the Do-217 and He-177 with the radio controlled anti shipping missiles.

Bill

Is AE capable of representing radio controlled anti-shipping missles? I guess it would just be a matter of giving the missle a high accuracy rating compared to other devices?

Ohka?

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: wdolson

There are also the Do-217 and He-177 with the radio controlled anti shipping missiles.

Bill

Is AE capable of representing radio controlled anti-shipping missles? I guess it would just be a matter of giving the missle a high accuracy rating compared to other devices?

Ohka?

Oh, yes. Forgot about that one.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: wdolson

There are also the Do-217 and He-177 with the radio controlled anti shipping missiles.

Bill

Is AE capable of representing radio controlled anti-shipping missles? I guess it would just be a matter of giving the missle a high accuracy rating compared to other devices?

Well Nemo121 had ground based Okha's in his Downfall mod too ...

[Shark7]

I'll let you know how these work when my test run gets to that point, but the editor does allow for them, as you can see.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: n01487477
Well Nemo121 had ground based Okha's in his Downfall mod too ...

Though the art is wrong. The art is for the J8M, which was not a kamikaze plane. It was planned to operate the same way as the Me-163.

Bill