Fortress Palembang: Problems and Solutions

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: Historiker



Sure. But it forces the Jap player to take unnecessary risks. Whether forcing the Jap player to do so because of an engine exploit has to be decided by the two players.

This is what i meant by using Reverse tactics. Yes, Player one can counter the gambit but only by using equally unrealistic (and risky) tactics. Thus the game rewards lunging and grabbing vital turf first before the other can move in and entrench. When Joe and I tried to use conventional military tactics (advance under air and sea cover with proper logistical/base support, we found fortresses like Palembang waiting for us. (the other big one was in the two Mtn hexsides of Java where our opponents had moved every single Dutch unit abandoning the ports, airfields and cities) Simiar situation in NG. We refused to "lunge" or use risky tactics that in the real world would have been insane (and largely unsupportable) It was an eye opening experience.

I'm more convinced than ever that Grigsby was smarter than alot of gamers give him credit for.

put another way....an example would be the in real life you advance from a logistical strongpoint and advance along careful lines, preferably under air and sea cover. This is what the Japanese did in their first operational phase within reason. They didn't try leapfrogging Malaya and going to Burma or Sumatra....or skip Kendari and Timor and invade Java. In the game...the most rewarding tactic is to attack the fringes first and work your way back to your support base. It becomes a race. This is not realistic.....but it works, and in cases like Palembang, thats really the only good way i can see Player one defeating this gambit.

This thread has two arguments and people are generally talking past each other...

In one camp you have -

- "Its a game...the game allows it...so be it....figure out away around it....afterall the game allows other situations that I have to deal with."

In the other camp you have -

- "It should be a simulation and this should not happen in a realistic environment"


Both camps are correct...

I fall in the simulation camp myself. IMO almost all of this stems from the "Supply Point = Everything....just add water and stir" logistics model that exists in the game.

IRL logistically it would have been nearly impossible to stockpile the supplies that would have been necessary to support a large army in a place like Palembang or the mountain redoubt of Java.

If the supply points were broken down into what they actually represent, after setting aside the food water and ammunition a bunch of the "supply" points would disappear creating a much smaller available pool of supplies available for survival and combat which are needed in siege situations.

However because of the "Add water and stir" nature of the logistics model the 7000 tons of ready mix concrete that the engineers were using to build pill boxes the week before are automagically converted into bullets or hardtack the minut the units are cut off and have to fight.

-------

The other thing that the "game" fails to address and many games do not, is the civilian equation.

We as players do not have to concern ourselves with protracted sieges in Singapore or Batavia and the thousands of civilian deaths that would have resulted. Unlike our real life counter-parts...who factored that into their equation and decision to capitulate as quickly as they did.

Building from this...

In an ideal world, the games HI and LI would produce a number of supply points that would then convert into other categories at different conversion levels.

IE:

1 Supply Points = 1 Ammunition point
2 Supply Points = 1 Food point
3 Supply Points = 1 AvGas point
4 Supply points = 1 Spare Parts
5 Supply Points = 1 Construction Materials
10 Supply points = 1 'Replacement'

etc

And of course each unit, ship or plane consumes those points at a rate of whatever is needed. The supply is produced, then used up by other factories to make the goodies. Examples:

Ammo Factory makes ammo
Barracks make replacement troops
Refinery makes AvGas
Cannery makes food
Machine shops make spares
Mills make construction Materials

Etc

For example, to rebuild an infantry unit each squad, gun or tank you replace uses up 1 replacement point. If an infantry unit requires 1000 ammunition to be at full supply, and it is at 200, then it pulls 800 ammunition points from the base to replace its ammo, etc.

What it means is a lot more logistics, and a lot more micromanagement, but it would easily prevent an easy 'Fortress Palembang' situation, as the Refinery makes plenty of AvGas, but no bullets to fight with and no food to eat. it would also slow down the tempo of the Japanese player, as he would actually have to carefully plan to have enough of the necessary supplies moved forward. If you have plenty of bullets but no food, you still won't win.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Nikademus



This is what i meant by using Reverse tactics. Yes, Player one can counter the gambit but only by using equally unrealistic (and risky) tactics. Thus the game rewards lunging and grabbing vital turf first before the other can move in and entrench. When Joe and I tried to use conventional military tactics (advance under air and sea cover with proper logistical/base support, we found fortresses like Palembang waiting for us. (the other big one was in the two Mtn hexsides of Java where our opponents had moved every single Dutch unit abandoning the ports, airfields and cities) Simiar situation in NG. We refused to "lunge" or use risky tactics that in the real world would have been insane (and largely unsupportable) It was an eye opening experience.

I'm more convinced than ever that Grigsby was smarter than alot of gamers give him credit for.

put another way....an example would be the in real life you advance from a logistical strongpoint and advance along careful lines, preferably under air and sea cover. This is what the Japanese did in their first operational phase within reason. They didn't try leapfrogging Malaya and going to Burma or Sumatra....or skip Kendari and Timor and invade Java. In the game...the most rewarding tactic is to attack the fringes first and work your way back to your support base. It becomes a race. This is not realistic.....but it works, and in cases like Palembang, thats really the only good way i can see Player one defeating this gambit.

This thread has two arguments and people are generally talking past each other...

In one camp you have -

- "Its a game...the game allows it...so be it....figure out away around it....afterall the game allows other situations that I have to deal with."

In the other camp you have -

- "It should be a simulation and this should not happen in a realistic environment"


Both camps are correct...

I fall in the simulation camp myself. IMO almost all of this stems from the "Supply Point = Everything....just add water and stir" logistics model that exists in the game.

IRL logistically it would have been nearly impossible to stockpile the supplies that would have been necessary to support a large army in a place like Palembang or the mountain redoubt of Java.

If the supply points were broken down into what they actually represent, after setting aside the food water and ammunition a bunch of the "supply" points would disappear creating a much smaller available pool of supplies available for survival and combat which are needed in siege situations.

However because of the "Add water and stir" nature of the logistics model the 7000 tons of ready mix concrete that the engineers were using to build pill boxes the week before are automagically converted into bullets or hardtack the minut the units are cut off and have to fight.

-------

The other thing that the "game" fails to address and many games do not, is the civilian equation.

We as players do not have to concern ourselves with protracted sieges in Singapore or Batavia and the thousands of civilian deaths that would have resulted. Unlike our real life counter-parts...who factored that into their equation and decision to capitulate as quickly as they did.

Building from this...

In an ideal world, the games HI and LI would produce a number of supply points that would then convert into other categories at different conversion levels.

IE:

1 Supply Points = 1 Ammunition point
2 Supply Points = 1 Food point
3 Supply Points = 1 AvGas point
4 Supply points = 1 Spare Parts
5 Supply Points = 1 Construction Materials
10 Supply points = 1 'Replacement'

etc

And of course each unit, ship or plane consumes those points at a rate of whatever is needed. The supply is produced, then used up by other factories to make the goodies. Examples:

Ammo Factory makes ammo
Barracks make replacement troops
Refinery makes AvGas
Cannery makes food
Machine shops make spares
Mills make construction Materials

Etc

For example, to rebuild an infantry unit each squad, gun or tank you replace uses up 1 replacement point. If an infantry unit requires 1000 ammunition to be at full supply, and it is at 200, then it pulls 800 ammunition points from the base to replace its ammo, etc.

What it means is a lot more logistics, and a lot more micromanagement, but it would easily prevent an easy 'Fortress Palembang' situation, as the Refinery makes plenty of AvGas, but no bullets to fight with and no food to eat. it would also slow down the tempo of the Japanese player, as he would actually have to carefully plan to have enough of the necessary supplies moved forward. If you have plenty of bullets but no food, you still won't win.

Well - that could be abstracted as just supply (as it is), but the requirements for each of those categories broken down by the gameengine into the various types needed by the units present. Of course that would mean that each unit / device has a supply requirement for each category underlying the overall requirement. Hence larger supply needs.

I like the idea - but don't think that it needs a human touch. Just game logic to allocate the supply to larger category needs.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Shark wrote:

Building from this...

In an ideal world, the games HI and LI would produce a number of supply points that would then convert into other categories at different conversion levels.

IE:

1 Supply Points = 1 Ammunition point
2 Supply Points = 1 Food point
3 Supply Points = 1 AvGas point
4 Supply points = 1 Spare Parts
5 Supply Points = 1 Construction Materials
10 Supply points = 1 'Replacement'

etc

And of course each unit, ship or plane consumes those points at a rate of whatever is needed. The supply is produced, then used up by other factories to make the goodies. Examples:

Ammo Factory makes ammo
Barracks make replacement troops
Refinery makes AvGas
Cannery makes food
Machine shops make spares
Mills make construction Materials

Etc

For example, to rebuild an infantry unit each squad, gun or tank you replace uses up 1 replacement point. If an infantry unit requires 1000 ammunition to be at full supply, and it is at 200, then it pulls 800 ammunition points from the base to replace its ammo, etc.

What it means is a lot more logistics, and a lot more micromanagement, but it would easily prevent an easy 'Fortress Palembang' situation, as the Refinery makes plenty of AvGas, but no bullets to fight with and no food to eat. it would also slow down the tempo of the Japanese player, as he would actually have to carefully plan to have enough of the necessary supplies moved forward. If you have plenty of bullets but no food, you still won't win.

Well - that could be abstracted as just supply (as it is), but the requirements for each of those categories broken down by the gameengine into the various types needed by the units present. Of course that would mean that each unit / device has a supply requirement for each category underlying the overall requirement. Hence larger supply needs.

I like the idea - but don't think that it needs a human touch. Just game logic to allocate the supply to larger category needs.

But that still doesn't prevent the 7000 tons of engineering material that was offloaded three weeks prior from being converted to food overnight because the player decides he no longer wants to improve the facilities at a base but would rather feed and fight.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Shark wrote:

Building from this...

In an ideal world, the games HI and LI would produce a number of supply points that would then convert into other categories at different conversion levels.

IE:

1 Supply Points = 1 Ammunition point
2 Supply Points = 1 Food point
3 Supply Points = 1 AvGas point
4 Supply points = 1 Spare Parts
5 Supply Points = 1 Construction Materials
10 Supply points = 1 'Replacement'

etc

And of course each unit, ship or plane consumes those points at a rate of whatever is needed. The supply is produced, then used up by other factories to make the goodies. Examples:

Ammo Factory makes ammo
Barracks make replacement troops
Refinery makes AvGas
Cannery makes food
Machine shops make spares
Mills make construction Materials

Etc

For example, to rebuild an infantry unit each squad, gun or tank you replace uses up 1 replacement point. If an infantry unit requires 1000 ammunition to be at full supply, and it is at 200, then it pulls 800 ammunition points from the base to replace its ammo, etc.

What it means is a lot more logistics, and a lot more micromanagement, but it would easily prevent an easy 'Fortress Palembang' situation, as the Refinery makes plenty of AvGas, but no bullets to fight with and no food to eat. it would also slow down the tempo of the Japanese player, as he would actually have to carefully plan to have enough of the necessary supplies moved forward. If you have plenty of bullets but no food, you still won't win.

Well - that could be abstracted as just supply (as it is), but the requirements for each of those categories broken down by the gameengine into the various types needed by the units present. Of course that would mean that each unit / device has a supply requirement for each category underlying the overall requirement. Hence larger supply needs.

I like the idea - but don't think that it needs a human touch. Just game logic to allocate the supply to larger category needs.

But that still doesn't prevent the 7000 tons of engineering material that was offloaded three weeks prior from being converted to food overnight because the player decides he no longer wants to improve the facilities at a base but would rather feed and fight.

I see the point you're making, as a computer guy - I'm just trying to abstract it somehow without making witp2 into a nightmare. Or even allowing the current engine to work within these parameters - which would mean higher supply utilisation/need.

There is the mechanism already that 1000supply/repair point for industry repair - the player chooses whether this will happen. This could be extended to port or airfield repair - once started the total supplies are consumed for a 1 lvl increase (similar to how lcu devices are replaced now - the engine produces the total amount of devices needed and then slowly allocates them to the LCU) - all theory though.

Shark7's idea is not bad - those supply points just need to be converted at time of use and non-refundable or maybe within a window of time (drawing say 14 days worth) - which is what the supply req. shows anyway.

Look I'm with you on making the Ind/logistics model much better - I just think that the quartermaster needs to be the computer abstractly (with each device having supply category needs) and the conversion to these done in a better manner, rather than a human bogged down in that.

Having said that I'd love to play the game with it, but I doubt others would.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: treespider

But that still doesn't prevent the 7000 tons of engineering material that was offloaded three weeks prior from being converted to food overnight because the player decides he no longer wants to improve the facilities at a base but would rather feed and fight.

As a side comment to this, however, I'd ask the Japanese players if they're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting to dump refineries generating supply. Sure, it helps prevent FP-type situaitons (and as has been pointed out, and not commented upon, possibly because it's uncomfortable for the JFBs, it works in other places as well, such as Soerbaja.) But once you have Palembang and there's no FP situation, you're left with no organic supply to fix those massively damaged POL infrastructures. You must bring it all in from somewhere else where you'd rather leave it.

To the comment above about converting cement to bullets, sure, but consider that repairing a damaged refinery isn't a "supply" situation in game terms either, but ought to be an HI point situation. Refineries are all girders and latticework, pipes, concrete berms, pumps. Not food, uniforms, bullets, or avgas. If the game required using up HI bank points to fix damaged industry instead of supply the whole issue would be moot. Or at least mooter.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: treespider

But that still doesn't prevent the 7000 tons of engineering material that was offloaded three weeks prior from being converted to food overnight because the player decides he no longer wants to improve the facilities at a base but would rather feed and fight.

As a side comment to this, however, I'd ask the Japanese players if they're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting to dump refineries generating supply. Sure, it helps prevent FP-type situaitons (and as has been pointed out, and not commented upon, possibly because it's uncomfortable for the JFBs, it works in other places as well, such as Soerbaja.) But once you have Palembang and there's no FP situation, you're left with no organic supply to fix those massively damaged POL infrastructures. You must bring it all in from somewhere else where you'd rather leave it.

Talking as a player that predominately plays as Japan; I'm happy to get rid of the OilRef -> Supply multiplier. Luckily you can mod to play either way - the two players can decide at the start, so not an issue either way.

To the comment above about converting cement to bullets, sure, but consider that repairing a damaged refinery isn't a "supply" situation in game terms either, but ought to be an HI point situation. Refineries are all girders and latticework, pipes, concrete berms, pumps. Not food, uniforms, bullets, or avgas. If the game required using up HI bank points to fix damaged industry instead of supply the whole issue would be moot. Or at least mooter.

Is a good concept, but problematic in that taken the very easy nature of Japanese economics in Stock, having a million HI points is very easily attainable. At least we can mod the supply requirement for repairs, if this was extended to HI for repair - I'd be with you... although supplies are derived from HI plants anyway. Maybe a mixture would work best.

In my Scen 1 JWE's version plus my economic overlay - the HI stockpile issue is addressed somewhat as there is now very little surplus HI accumulation.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: treespider

But that still doesn't prevent the 7000 tons of engineering material that was offloaded three weeks prior from being converted to food overnight because the player decides he no longer wants to improve the facilities at a base but would rather feed and fight.

As a side comment to this, however, I'd ask the Japanese players if they're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting to dump refineries generating supply. Sure, it helps prevent FP-type situaitons (and as has been pointed out, and not commented upon, possibly because it's uncomfortable for the JFBs, it works in other places as well, such as Soerbaja.) But once you have Palembang and there's no FP situation, you're left with no organic supply to fix those massively damaged POL infrastructures. You must bring it all in from somewhere else where you'd rather leave it.

Only once I've taken a hit at Palembang...the key is patience and don't shock attack.

To the comment above about converting cement to bullets, sure, but consider that repairing a damaged refinery isn't a "supply" situation in game terms either, but ought to be an HI point situation. Refineries are all girders and latticework, pipes, concrete berms, pumps. Not food, uniforms, bullets, or avgas. If the game required using up HI bank points to fix damaged industry instead of supply the whole issue would be moot. Or at least mooter.

I was thinking more in terms of concrete, asphalt, asphalt producing plants, crushing plants, compressors, jack hammers, screening plants for gravel, explosives, landing mat, gasoline storage tanks, etc...that are all needed to build up bases...and it cuts both ways...the Japanese need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and the Allies need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and none of that stuff is food/water/pol/ammo....but it all takes up shipping space and storage space....which HI points do not.

[Onime No Kyo]

I'm sorry, I may be losing the point of this conversation, but unless there is another game in the works that I havent heard of, I'm afraid youre talking about changing fundamental mechanics of this game which will not be changed. As was pointed out earlier by n014....(can I call you Bob?) the game can be modded to your heart's content. And if you guys have the inclination and wherewithal you an redesign every single algorithm to do what you want it to do. But if youre talking about the game as it stands, I'm afraid your banging your heads against a very unimpressed wall.

Having said that, I will also say that keeping fundamental game engine changes entirely out of the conversation, I still havent seen a persuasive argument for why I should feel the least bit of remorse for fortifying the snot out of the place. I've seen a lot of speculation and "moon gazing" but no persuasive arguments.

[Shark7]

Onime, as I said, in an ideal world. I certainly have no intention of recoding an already working game to make it more complex. Nor do I have the skills to do so either.

Maybe in a new game that was built strictly with Grognards in mind...but I have a feeling that what we have works quite well for your average player, and they don't want even more complexity.

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Onime, as I said, in an ideal world. I certainly have no intention of recoding an already working game to make it more complex. Nor do I have the skills to do so either.

Maybe in a new game that was built strictly with Grognards in mind...but I have a feeling that what we have works quite well for your average player, and they don't want even more complexity.

I agree. And dont get me wrong, I would love to see even more improvement. Heck, if someone were to try and get even halfway, I'm bet Matrix would be more than receptive to the notion and may even come up with something like WPO way back when. But in the present situation, it seems a little too much like whining (I dont mean you, or anyone else here specifically, just the general "mood" of the conversation").

The idea behind my last post was that this thread originally began with the statement that FP is an allied fanboi exploitation of the game engine which makes the game nigh on unplayable for the other side and how the allied fanbois aught to be ashamed of themselves.....or stuff to that effect.....and I would like to return it, if possible, to that topic because so far I have been completely unconvinced by anything posted prior.

Some very good arguments were made to illustrate that it makes the life of the Japanese player more difficult, but that is not tantamount to exploiting anything, much less (what I took to be thinly veiled accusations of) cheating. Frankly, I'd like to hear more about it.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Onime, as I said, in an ideal world. I certainly have no intention of recoding an already working game to make it more complex. Nor do I have the skills to do so either.

Maybe in a new game that was built strictly with Grognards in mind...but I have a feeling that what we have works quite well for your average player, and they don't want even more complexity.

I agree. And dont get me wrong, I would love to see even more improvement. Heck, if someone were to try and get even halfway, I'm bet Matrix would be more than receptive to the notion and may even come up with something like WPO way back when. But in the present situation, it seems a little too much like whining (I dont mean you, or anyone else here specifically, just the general "mood" of the conversation").

The idea behind my last post was that this thread originally began with the statement that FP is an allied fanboi exploitation of the game engine which makes the game nigh on unplayable for the other side and how the allied fanbois aught to be ashamed of themselves.....or stuff to that effect.....and I would like to return it, if possible, to that topic because so far I have been completely unconvinced by anything posted prior.

Some very good arguments were made to illustrate that it makes the life of the Japanese player more difficult, but that is not tantamount to exploiting anything, much less (what I took to be thinly veiled accusations of) cheating. Frankly, I'd like to hear more about it.

And you Onime would fall into -

ORIGINAL: treespider
In one camp you have -

- "Its a game...the game allows it...so be it....figure out away around it....afterall the game allows other situations that I have to deal with."

Not that there is anything wrong with that...and as such it is a completely valid strategy for the game.

There are some players however who feel that the game as presented is flawed and hence the no refinery supply mods that have been developed.

The recent discussion would bring the "game" more in line with "simulation".

[Onime No Kyo]

I dont completely disagree with you on that, TS. But I would qualify that by saying that if you can show me how something makes the game "unfair" I'm more than willing to abide by HRs to prevent the unfairness.

In the present situation, however, I just dont see the crime. Not only is the production of supplies not enough to seriously offset the game balance but it also works both ways, not just at Palembang but various other bases. It seems an inconvenience, nothing more.

I realize that others may feel differently, hence the mods you mention, but I really dont think that blaming the Allied side for this is really called for.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Is a good concept, but problematic in that taken the very easy nature of Japanese economics in Stock, having a million HI points is very easily attainable. At least we can mod the supply requirement for repairs, if this was extended to HI for repair - I'd be with you... although supplies are derived from HI plants anyway. Maybe a mixture would work best.

A mixture would work. There are two side-issues I see.

1) Supply has to be moved to the repair. HI teleports. In that way, if refinery-generated supply is gone, you increase Japanese risk and make the supply open to Allied naval attack. Using HI would make things easier for Japan even if HI were more scarce.

2) HI must have POL to generate. Supply can be LIed. By the late game, if HI were used for all industrial repairs, especially strat bombing damage, that would create trade-offs which don't exist now where LI can be sourced once the oil is stopped, captured, or has no tankers to carry it. As you say, it would be helpful if Hi were more moddable.

To me #2 is a more critical variable than #1 across the whole game/war. The focus on FP always falls onto the first three or so months of the game, but strategic repair, especially of aircraft plants in 1944-45, is to me more important. Maybe the refinery supply in the Home Islands is important in the late game?

Palembang doesn't have any LI, so if the refinery stuff is modded away the base falls fast. Unmodded it's 1000+ points, pretty useful to fix 300+ refinery damage. That's a lot of supply to haul from elsewhere.

Soerbaja only has 40 LI, but 170 refinery generated. As the Allies I can do something with 210 to defend. Not much with 40. But I don't have to fix anything either. And in that role time has a significant value to the Japanese. Even more for Palembang. A Japanese player could easily consume two months or more getting enough supply on site to start fixing significant damage.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: treespider

But that still doesn't prevent the 7000 tons of engineering material that was offloaded three weeks prior from being converted to food overnight because the player decides he no longer wants to improve the facilities at a base but would rather feed and fight.

As a side comment to this, however, I'd ask the Japanese players if they're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting to dump refineries generating supply. Sure, it helps prevent FP-type situaitons (and as has been pointed out, and not commented upon, possibly because it's uncomfortable for the JFBs, it works in other places as well, such as Soerbaja.) But once you have Palembang and there's no FP situation, you're left with no organic supply to fix those massively damaged POL infrastructures. You must bring it all in from somewhere else where you'd rather leave it.

Only once I've taken a hit at Palembang...the key is patience and don't shock attack.

I've never fully understood how the damage rolls work. And I never see the damge after I'm ejected when I play as the Allies.

To the comment above about converting cement to bullets, sure, but consider that repairing a damaged refinery isn't a "supply" situation in game terms either, but ought to be an HI point situation. Refineries are all girders and latticework, pipes, concrete berms, pumps. Not food, uniforms, bullets, or avgas. If the game required using up HI bank points to fix damaged industry instead of supply the whole issue would be moot. Or at least mooter.

I was thinking more in terms of concrete, asphalt, asphalt producing plants, crushing plants, compressors, jack hammers, screening plants for gravel, explosives, landing mat, gasoline storage tanks, etc...that are all needed to build up bases...and it cuts both ways...the Japanese need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and the Allies need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and none of that stuff is food/water/pol/ammo....but it all takes up shipping space and storage space....which HI points do not.

It's a lot cheaper to build ports and air bases than to repair refineries. The Allies never lack for sea lift or supplies or engineers. Time is their main constraint.

As I said in the other post too, the HI/refinery supply issue needs to be considered across the whole war, not only for Palembang or Borneo. HI doesn't need lift, but it does need fuel. That's a lot more critical in the late war when Allied strat bombing is doing 50-80 points of factory damage a couple of times a week.

I know the refinery supply thing is moddable, and people can play either way now. But I wonder if everyone is focusing on 1942 too much and not on late-war balance.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




As a side comment to this, however, I'd ask the Japanese players if they're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater in wanting to dump refineries generating supply. Sure, it helps prevent FP-type situaitons (and as has been pointed out, and not commented upon, possibly because it's uncomfortable for the JFBs, it works in other places as well, such as Soerbaja.) But once you have Palembang and there's no FP situation, you're left with no organic supply to fix those massively damaged POL infrastructures. You must bring it all in from somewhere else where you'd rather leave it.

Only once I've taken a hit at Palembang...the key is patience and don't shock attack.

I've never fully understood how the damage rolls work. And I never see the damge after I'm ejected when I play as the Allies.

To the comment above about converting cement to bullets, sure, but consider that repairing a damaged refinery isn't a "supply" situation in game terms either, but ought to be an HI point situation. Refineries are all girders and latticework, pipes, concrete berms, pumps. Not food, uniforms, bullets, or avgas. If the game required using up HI bank points to fix damaged industry instead of supply the whole issue would be moot. Or at least mooter.

I was thinking more in terms of concrete, asphalt, asphalt producing plants, crushing plants, compressors, jack hammers, screening plants for gravel, explosives, landing mat, gasoline storage tanks, etc...that are all needed to build up bases...and it cuts both ways...the Japanese need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and the Allies need to ship the stuff in to develop their bases...and none of that stuff is food/water/pol/ammo....but it all takes up shipping space and storage space....which HI points do not.

It's a lot cheaper to build ports and air bases than to repair refineries. The Allies never lack for sea lift or supplies or engineers. Time is their main constraint.

As I said in the other post too, the HI/refinery supply issue needs to be considered across the whole war, not only for Palembang or Borneo. HI doesn't need lift, but it does need fuel. That's a lot more critical in the late war when Allied strat bombing is doing 50-80 points of factory damage a couple of times a week.

I know the refinery supply thing is moddable, and people can play either way now. But I wonder if everyone is focusing on 1942 too much and not on late-war balance.

I think we are talking past each other...and I think there is a misconception - in stock if the refineries at Palembang are destroyed they do not produce supply, so they are not producing supply to repair themselves and it still needs to be brought in until a fair amount of the refinery is repaired.

I am apparently missing your point about late war balance, in that somehow the balance will be altered if refineries no longer produce supply. Yes the balance will be altered because a Palembang producing 600-1000 points of supply per day in 1944 is much different than a Palembang producing 0 in 1944. The Japanese will have a large supply source 100 hexes closer to the front that will not require as much shipping to move. As a Japanese player I would rather ship supplies 10 hexes from Palembang rather than 100 hexes from Osaka.

I see your point about Refinery repair utilizing HI points, but you're not going to cripple the Japanese economy by making them utilize HI points to repair the industry, and it has no relation to what I was trying to stress about the different kinds of supply that are represented by the "Generic Supply Point". This game is all about merchant ships, their capacity and the supply they carry.

In the case of FP - one point as an example but not all points associated with the situation is that bases for the most part can only hold a certain amount of supply. If a large percentage of that supply capacity were occupied by supplies needed to improve a base's fortifications or size to increase storage capacity, then there would be less supplies available for fighting or surviving a siege. The player would be forced into making a decision about what to send to the base. Another point would be that if the refinery did produce supply it would only be the kind of supply needed for moving or building and would not be the kind needed for fighting or feeding.

As it applies to the rest of the game - if shipping capacity were sucked up moving around all of those items that are not directly involved in fighting or surviving the pace of operations would certainly slow down. You might see situations such as Noumea where there were bottlenecks for shipping. Ships were stuck in harbor as floating warehouses because the items on those ships were not immediately needed by the troops on the ground. Or alternatively when one side lands at a base how much supply is brought along to support fighting and surviving and how much is brought along to lay new tarmacs and improve the wharves after seizing the base. A player might screw up and not bring enough supplies to support fighting if they expected light opposition...or they might not have enough shipping to immediately bring in the supplies needed to start improving the base.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Is a good concept, but problematic in that taken the very easy nature of Japanese economics in Stock, having a million HI points is very easily attainable. At least we can mod the supply requirement for repairs, if this was extended to HI for repair - I'd be with you... although supplies are derived from HI plants anyway. Maybe a mixture would work best.

A mixture would work. There are two side-issues I see.

1) Supply has to be moved to the repair. HI teleports. In that way, if refinery-generated supply is gone, you increase Japanese risk and make the supply open to Allied naval attack. Using HI would make things easier for Japan even if HI were more scarce.

2) HI must have POL to generate. Supply can be LIed. By the late game, if HI were used for all industrial repairs, especially strat bombing damage, that would create trade-offs which don't exist now where LI can be sourced once the oil is stopped, captured, or has no tankers to carry it. As you say, it would be helpful if Hi were more moddable.

To me #2 is a more critical variable than #1 across the whole game/war. The focus on FP always falls onto the first three or so months of the game, but strategic repair, especially of aircraft plants in 1944-45, is to me more important. Maybe the refinery supply in the Home Islands is important in the late game?

Palembang doesn't have any LI, so if the refinery stuff is modded away the base falls fast. Unmodded it's 1000+ points, pretty useful to fix 300+ refinery damage. That's a lot of supply to haul from elsewhere.

Soerbaja only has 40 LI, but 170 refinery generated. As the Allies I can do something with 210 to defend. Not much with 40. But I don't have to fix anything either. And in that role time has a significant value to the Japanese. Even more for Palembang. A Japanese player could easily consume two months or more getting enough supply on site to start fixing significant damage.

Which is why I would like to see a system that takes the HI, LI and Supply and turns it into something more tangible. HI would still be used to power the current industries, but it could also be converted into 'Construction Materials' that then have to be transported to the build site. Supply is the same. You could even produce LI points that turn into something else.

I'm seeing an even more refined system (or more complex) system where you first get your LI and HI, then have to convert them to the various things you need. But I'm getting ahead of myself here.

As far as the current topic goes, my fix was to increase Supply produced by light industry and remove the supply from refineries. Overall, it doesn't hurt the whole supply situation, but prevents Palembang, etc from being self sustaining when in real life it shouldn't be.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: treespider


I think we are talking past each other...and I think there is a misconception - in stock if the refineries at Palembang are destroyed they do not produce supply, so they are not producing supply to repair themselves and it still needs to be brought in until a fair amount of the refinery is repaired.

They don't produce supply to the extent they're damaged, but they produce supply in the undamaged portion. If there is 30% refinery damage the 700ish supply production is gold for effecting repairs on the 30%. I don't play the Japanese, so I don't know the destruction range, but I've never heard anyone here claiming they got 100% destruction even on a shock roll.

I am apparently missing your point about late war balance, in that somehow the balance will be altered if refineries no longer produce supply. Yes the balance will be altered because a Palembang producing 600-1000 points of supply per day in 1944 is much different than a Palembang producing 0 in 1944. The Japanese will have a large supply source 100 hexes closer to the front that will not require as much shipping to move. As a Japanese player I would rather ship supplies 10 hexes from Palembang rather than 100 hexes from Osaka.

That's true, but it wasn't my point. I wasn't discussing Palembang per se. In the late war it's probably in Allied hands, and they of course don't need the help. I was more talking about 1) the macro balance from day 1 of taking away total system supply if all refineries are modded and there is no corresponding bump up in LI or HI sourced supply (and refinery-produced supply is non-trivial IMO), and 2) that in the late-war the Home Island refineries are a considerable source of local supply to be used to repair strat bombing damage in the HI. IOW, castrating refinery supply in order to prevent a FP in the first weeks will affect the Japanese player a lot in 1945. Maybe more than some players who have never gotten that far realize.

I see your point about Refinery repair utilizing HI points, but you're not going to cripple the Japanese economy by making them utilize HI points to repair the industry, and it has no relation to what I was trying to stress about the different kinds of supply that are represented by the "Generic Supply Point". This game is all about merchant ships, their capacity and the supply they carry.

I agree that the orginal devs made supply be what it is because it can't teleport. Without that about half of the Allied war goes away; anti-economic warfare was the key aim of the Allies. And I also ack that the game has only seven, huge, crudely defined "buckets" in the model--HI, LI, Oil, Fuel, Supply, Armaments, Vehicles. (Yards are secondary.) Because of this there are oddities in terms of definitions. Why, for example, does production of two wings and a fuselage, a minor consumption of metal, energy, and labor, consume HI, while repairing a multi-square-mile refinery complex which consumes millions of tons of steel and uses massive castings, eats only "supply." Another example: a Quonset hut "kit" uses rolled steel, girders, portland cement plus manufactured items like doors and windows, but doen't use up HI either. In fact the model almost ignores Allied HI in toto. In Februray 1942 I have 563,000 HI points in the bank, am making 8300 per day, and have no use for them.

Overall, my main objection to the economic model vis a vis history is that oil is not as critical to the Japanese effort as it should be. It's too easy to produce, too easy to move (magically in Asia), and too easy to convert into forms which can't be attacked. The whole of the Japanese expansion effort was aimed at securing petroleum. Lack of it was the single biggest factor in their mid- and late-war naval ops, aircraft usage, pilot training, and weapon mix decisions. Smart human players over the years have learned how to make it essentially a non-factor as they build massive air armies to use in 1945. In hindsight I think this is the single biggest economic boo-boo in the design. In contrast refinery-produced supply is a blip. My aim in suggesting HI could be used for all industrial repairs wasn't to illustrate that the buckets are crude--they are even as they're the best of any wargame I know--but that the model as a whole underplays the role of oil and makes the late-war a Frankenstein version of history.

As it applies to the rest of the game - if shipping capacity were sucked up moving around all of those items that are not directly involved in fighting or surviving the pace of operations would certainly slow down. You might see situations such as Noumea where there were bottlenecks for shipping. Ships were stuck in harbor as floating warehouses because the items on those ships were not immediately needed by the troops on the ground. Or alternatively when one side lands at a base how much supply is brought along to support fighting and surviving and how much is brought along to lay new tarmacs and improve the wharves after seizing the base. A player might screw up and not bring enough supplies to support fighting if they expected light opposition...or they might not have enough shipping to immediately bring in the supplies needed to start improving the base.

I personally, as an ex-supply officer, would like there to be more logistic complexity, but I know I'm in the minority. I would be fine with calling "supply" only food, clothes, ammo, and avgas and make HI stand-in for everything else and require it be transported. I think that would make playing the Allies a lot more fun, as well as soak up a lot of Japanese sealift currently used for forays into Oz and India. I'd also like to recognize the real world need to use up "something", either supply or HI, to repair damage to airfields and ports. Having it be free makes sieges both harder and easier, and goes against common sense.

But knowing any change to the model is not going to happen (and also knowing that my suggesitons aren't going to happen either) I'd settle for forcing more HI to be eaten up doing things which take up heavy industry's output. Repairing refineries and engine plants fit the bill to me. And I would do this mostly to force oil to be used in larger amounts to run the war, and to make securing and transporting that oil a central concern of the Japanese player, instead of the sideline it is now in the face of Indian invasions and considerations of Pearl Harbor landings.

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Hopefully, while the JFB is charging down to Palembang, the AFB is using this time to create other roadblocks to be stumbled upon.

I think a lot of effort is going into countering a gambit which really only is of value against a JFB who isnt well organised or against the AI.

Not necesarily true. I had never seen it, or heard of a Palembang gambit before my game with Canoerebel. By the time I recognized it for what it was, it was too late. Canoerebel's early defensive strategy was excellent and I give him kudos for it. But I believe the Palembang gambit takes advantage of the game system.

I just do not believe it could have ever been possible in real life. As such, it does not fit the style of game I like to play and I did not prepare for it. Knowing what it does now means I will be vigilant against it in future games. Live and learn... and play.

Chez

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Hopefully, while the JFB is charging down to Palembang, the AFB is using this time to create other roadblocks to be stumbled upon.

I think a lot of effort is going into countering a gambit which really only is of value against a JFB who isnt well organised or against the AI.

Not necesarily true. I had never seen it, or heard of a Palembang gambit before my game with Canoerebel. By the time I recognized it for what it was, it was too late. Canoerebel's early defensive strategy was excellent and I give him kudos for it. But I believe the Palembang gambit takes advantage of the game system.

I just do not believe it could have ever been possible in real life. As such, it does not fit the style of game I like to play and I did not prepare for it. Knowing what it does now means I will be vigilant against it in future games. Live and learn... and play.

Chez

In your game aganst CR you were not well organised to take what is probably the most important point on the map, either on the run as suggested by the OP or later when if you had recognized the threat and CR was still vulnerable. If you read CR's AAR you will see the gap between his decision to hold Palembang and the point where he felt it secure.

Playing a historical game only works against the AI or with another player who will only play down historical lines. CR has always shown his ointerest in doing something a bit different, picket ships, invading the Kuriles or Iwo Jima etc.

[ChezDaJez]

Playing a historical game only works against the AI or with another player who will only play down historical lines. CR has always shown his ointerest in doing something a bit different, picket ships, invading the Kuriles or Iwo Jima etc.

I am a historical player, what can I say? I wasn't anticipating a fantasy game.

To be fair, I should have investigated his style of play before committing to the game. I didn't and I learned from it. I did enjoy the game right until the last turn however it is not a style I will attempt again. It just isn't me.

That's why I am thoroughly enjoying my game with Bradfordkay. We are in Nov 43. Both he and I look at the game and apply real world historical logic to it and we limit ourselves to what not only what was historically possible tactically but we also apply a human factor to the game. That is to say, we play as though those 1's and 0's actually represent flesh and blood. In a nutshell, that means no actions that would have been political suicide or unpalatable. So no bloody merchant ships sitting off enemy shores as pickets.

Chez