Rhine or Ruin (no glvaca)

[bigbaba]

flav was damnd right about defending the far north against the finns. it saves a lot of AP in 41 and you do not need to give back a lot of room.

i will always reinforce the 7th ind. army from now in my games.

[Michael T]

End Soviet T8

Good and bad news from the front.

The bad. AGC achieved a very tight pocket to the east of Vyazma. 6 Div's trapped, totalling around 60K future POW's, including two 50 morale units. Plus several other single units across the front that are trapped.

The good. Leningrad still has a land link and the battle for it is becoming costly for the Axis. Soviet attacks pushed back several Reg's west of Rzhev and a Pz xx pushed back just in front of Kharkov.

I just received the Axis T9 and no disasters to report. He has all but surrounded Kharkov, but all Arm and T34 factories have been evacuated. The HI and Vehicles though are as good as lost. Leningrad still not cut off.

[Michael T]

Some data and a couple of close ups around Moscow and Leningrad.

[janh]

Wow, that is a checkerboard down south. Seems like his Panzerdivisions are still in decent shape, though they could use a refit break. Buying time in Leningrad is a good strategy, Flavius is right that the battle for Moscow starts at Ostrov. Also smart move using some morale 50+ divisions to hold off the Finns that far north. With weaker units this would not work, even against AI, but this way it must pay dividends.

I would attempt just one thing differently than you presently do: I would pull all the Cavalry, Tank (early tank formations on both sides lack the infantry elements to make them economic/good defensive units anyway), Mechanized and a few infantry divisions out from the front at Leningrad and Moscow, and create two diversions: One serious push south of Lake Ilmen, vector West through Staraya Russa threatening the rail line through Pskov, and perhaps a second generally S or SSW along the Lovat threatening Velikie Luki. The latter may assist the former, and be a little more risky due to the poor retreat and supply terrain SW of the Valdai hills and Lake Seeliger. It seems presently both thrusts could be safe for 2-3 turns from an encirclement, and if only marginally successful could require your opponent to detach at the very least additional infantry to secure the area where AGN and AGC meet, if not even send Panzers from PzGrp. 3 and 4 to help stave off the threat?

Generally I feel your opponent concentrates his forces to much. Yes, this way he can advance brute force, just like the Germans at Kursk, but key to large pockets, or pockets in general is width. If you look back at the pockets of Wyjasma and Bryansk, it is amazing to see how widely spread out AGC was, from Pzgrp 2 and 2nd Army units starting basically from the region of Chernigov near Kiev to 4th and 9th Army and PzGrp 4 and 3 the south and north of Smolensk. I guess it not only does forces the Soviet to spread his weak counters, but also adds uncertainly to the main direction or break-thru point of any thrust.

[HITMAN202]

I have been surprised how effective a broad Axis advance can be. But you've got to go where the money is (Leningrad and Moscow) and small, concentrated pockets (3-4 hexes with 6-8 units) can be achieved. I've noticed that with the use of Reserve mode, fewer Soviets rout and pockets are easier to form (its important to use mech units to manipulate the retreats in a favorable direction.) But even in a broad Axis advance, good use of carpets will limit units getting isolated (as I've seen M60 do.) Also the Soviets can concentrate their Cavalry inbetween the major Army Groups and south of AGS to connect them and allow the concentration of the infantry in the path of the Axis advance. Those cavalry units ina carpet are almost impossible to isolate.

[randallw]

It looks like the 1st Ghost Army is defending west of Kursk.

[Michael T]

I think the risks involved (the destruction of the entire attacking forces) in a major attack by the SU before winter 41 far outweigh any possible gain. I am not in anyway geared for a major attack at this stage. My only attacks are opportunistic nuisance bumps. Last turn I pushed back some Regs west of Rhzev and if they had of retreated to more favourable hexes I had a Cav unit that could well have trashed several Luftwaffe bases but they did not retreat where I needed them to go.

My focus has been and continues to be maintaining as strong an army as possible for winter 41/42, maintaining the defensive hubs of Leningrad/Moscow and evacuating as much IND as possible. All other considerations are secondary. Any forces that would be sacrificed in any major attack would be far better employed defensively and if they survive will inflict much more pain during the winter than they possibly could right now. The SU simply has no teeth in the summer of 41. The best you can do is prey on German mistakes.

[Farfarer61]

Not sure about the Russian defence against the Finns. I want to give them everything including Vologda or more, and watch their morale self destruct. Until the much needed rule cutting atll Murmansk supply and lend lease if that rail line is cut, bring on the incipient 'northern Rumanians'.

[governato]

There is a big fat SU Tank division just S of the Neva that I would recommend moving East asap to avoid getting it trapped in Leningrad. Once that happens (I learned from past mistakes, see attachment) it becomes a major supply sink for not much in return.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

Not sure about the Russian defence against the Finns. I want to give them everything including Vologda or more, and watch their morale self destruct. Until the much needed rule cutting atll Murmansk supply and lend lease if that rail line is cut, bring on the incipient 'northern Rumanians'.

Somehow, this business of running all the way to Yaroslavl up north never really seems to work out very well for the Soviets.

The Finns can be blown up right where Micheal has them in 1944 whith Red Army 2.0. A couple of stacks of rifle corps backed up by artillery divisions will do the trick. People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. And when defeated there, Finland is gone. No room to run away.

[Seminole]

Tank (early tank formations on both sides lack the infantry elements to make them economic/good defensive units anyway), Mechanized and a few infantry divisions out from the front at Leningrad and Moscow, and create two diversions: One serious push south of Lake Ilmen

I second MT's take. Russians don't have the morale to go on offensives like that. They can hardly march into unoccupied territory, and were they to accomplish it they'd march straight to the camps anyway.
I find the Tank and Mot Div to be very strong defensive units (especially those in SW Front), and try to preserve them by falling back before they can be encircled whenever possible.
My only attacks as the Russians before the rain are necessary efforts to break a pocket (when numbers allow) to delay its liquidation, and against spearheads that are within easy reach of an onslaught of units. Those opportunities are rare.
Most of '41 is maneuver to make the German advance as MP expensive as possible in order to slow it while the army is drafted.

With respect to the this war - Western Front seems kind of out of the fight at the moment. I'd rather tempt him to run away from his supply to the NE by making a thicker wall between Moscow and thinning the approach to Kalinin. He has a lot of turns to try and close that last 80 miles to Moscow before the rain. It looks like he'll be 40 miles from the outskirts in another week. The more hexes he has to fight through, the more supplies and ammo he burns, and the more fatigue he endures. Much easier for the Soviet to rotate forces and utilize reserves when the focus narrows at Leningrad and Moscow.
Has his rail bridged the Dnepr yet in the south? Where is the rail head for AGC?

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Michael T
I think the risks involved (the destruction of the entire attacking forces) in a major attack by the SU before winter 41 far outweigh any possible gain. ...

My focus has been and continues to be maintaining as strong an army as possible for winter 41/42, maintaining the defensive hubs of Leningrad/Moscow and evacuating as much IND as possible. All other considerations are secondary. Any forces that would be sacrificed in any major attack would be far better employed defensively and if they survive will inflict much more pain during the winter than they possibly could right now. The SU simply has no teeth in the summer of 41. The best you can do is prey on German mistakes.

I have to mark that statement... Maybe I still plan to game too much on what capabilities each side shown by history, rather than the "game truth". I think the SU is not all that toothless, but you need luck to make it work, else yes, it will turn in a disaster a Russian player may not be able to recover from until the last day. In contrast to the past, where the Soviets create plentiful of such blunders in 41 as well as in early 42, and early 43, but each time they recovered.

Such a local counteroffensive south of Lake Ilmen was one reason Pzgrp 4 and 18th Army were delayed closing on Leningrad, and could not concentrate all the forces there as siginificant mobile units and infantry were needed to secure the right flank suddenly.

I think in the next patch they ought to attempt to give the SU a little teeth for 41 & 42. Maybe a 5 or 10 morale point bump across the board, and a little (1 hex) randomization of starting positions? I think the toning down of the manpower the did a few patches earlier was also a bit towards the low side now. In return, maybe a slight adjustment of the alternative VP conditions may be needed for game balance in PBEM? What would you guys think?

[Michael T]

Axis (0% damage) rail end T9.

[Michael T]

I agree, historically and in many other games major Soviet attacks were/are feasible in summer 1941. But not in this game. You are courting disaster in WITE unless you are way way in front. I don't know what the answer is because any change can make such a big difference in overall game balance.

I think one problem is that the Axis can move so far in any one move that as the SU you can't risk trying to defend a salient. So you are always forced to give ground. This is why these very narrow thrusts work for Axis players. The SU just can't risk trying to hold the ground between the drives. If you do you will end up losing everything in the salient. So you are forced to move back to a line roughly perpendicular to the lead Axis units, pretty much on a continuous basis.

[Flaviusx]

It would be very easy to change the game to give the Soviets some offensive capability in 1941. An across the board increase in morale would do it. Over time, Soviet morale norms have been steadily ratcheted downwards. They cannot do what they did on release. I guarantee you that if those old morale norms got restored, we'd never hear the end of it. But people wanted a helpless Soviet chewie toy, and that's what they got. Grats.

Morale is going down now all the way to September of 1942, to a low of 45. This is absolutely abysmal. In practice, it is often less than this, as the Soviet is flooded with a bunch of 30ish morale reinforcements on the east edge of the mapboard, and the remnants of the border fronts (particularly NW and W) are often sub 40 morale as well. A 35 morale unit is quite useless for anything but German target practice. I go out of my way to get those remnants killed, btw. You are quite often better of with a shell returning from the deadpile than trying to train such a hopeless unit up. As for the eastern reinforcements, you're stuck with those due to AP constraints.

Over the course of 1941, between TOE changes (the awful 41b rifle division is the main culprit here) and the morale drop, the Red Army grows weaker. The blizzard temporarily covers this up, but when that's gone, your morale is still mostly a wreck and won't really turn around until the end of 42.

[Gorforlin]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

So far no serious factory losses apart from the HI left behind.

Thanks for the info re bracketed supply state.

From my recon I gather he has from AGN 4 Pz xx, 3 Mot xx, AGC 7 Pz, 5 Mot, AGS 6 Pz, 5 mot. 1 Mot unaccounted for.

The far northern front still holds. See pic. 100 Fighters plus 140 bombers. A leader with a 6 rating for INF combat. I am confident this line will hold for now.

This tactic is cheesy for 2 reasons.

1. Its totaly unhistorical, in the north the Fins simply owned the Russians other then Murmansk area.

2. As I read the rules this area for both sides is froozen until the Fins are unfroozen first.

I am hoping 2by3 patches this cheese from game asap as they have patched out other cheesy moves.

This cheese should be part of everyones house rules until its nerfed.

I am surpised Michael T is using this cheese after his look what I found on my lunch break thread.

I am tring to figure out whos more cheesy Pelton for germans or Flaviusx for russians.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Seminole


I second MT's take. Russians don't have the morale to go on offensives like that. They can hardly march into unoccupied territory, and were they to accomplish it they'd march straight to the camps anyway.
I find the Tank and Mot Div to be very strong defensive units (especially those in SW Front), and try to preserve them by falling back before they can be encircled whenever possible.
My only attacks as the Russians before the rain are necessary efforts to break a pocket (when numbers allow) to delay its liquidation, and against spearheads that are within easy reach of an onslaught of units. Those opportunities are rare.
Most of '41 is maneuver to make the German advance as MP expensive as possible in order to slow it while the army is drafted.

With respect to the this war - Western Front seems kind of out of the fight at the moment. I'd rather tempt him to run away from his supply to the NE by making a thicker wall between Moscow and thinning the approach to Kalinin. He has a lot of turns to try and close that last 80 miles to Moscow before the rain. It looks like he'll be 40 miles from the outskirts in another week. The more hexes he has to fight through, the more supplies and ammo he burns, and the more fatigue he endures. Much easier for the Soviet to rotate forces and utilize reserves when the focus narrows at Leningrad and Moscow.
Has his rail bridged the Dnepr yet in the south? Where is the rail head for AGC?

Those strong tank units have a jaw of glass. They are literally one shot guys, and that's it. Their mobility is crap, and they are armament and vehicle hogs.

Here is what you do with tank units: take them off refit, and put them in combat situations where they will hopefully get routed off the map and return back as tank brigades. For good measure, you can also jack down their TOE to 50%. The weaker they get, the higher the chances they'll go away. Your quartermasters will be grateful for this. The real red army in 1941, such as it is, is cavalry and rifle units. The entire swarm of mech you start with is junk.

[Flaviusx]

Gorforlin, Leningrad falls every time to the Axis. That's cheese. Nobody complains about this. We just suck it up and deal with it.

The business up north is merely a way to mitigate the damage resulting from the virtual autoloss of Leningrad. Otherwise, the Axis runs amok post Leningrad on the northern end of the map (some Soviet players continue to insist this is perfectly ok, but there you go.)

Give Leningrad some real ability to defend itself, and then we'll chat about the Finns.

[Michael T]

Some of the Mech units have a morale of 45+ and 10K of men. They are ok in non open ground. But yeah sub 40 morale Tank xx full of BT7's etc are pretty crap. But still useful because they have a a zoc and if stacked with a decent INF unit can be tough to dislodge with a hasty attack. So use then in the second or third line where deliberates are less likely.

[Gorforlin]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Gorforlin, Leningrad falls every time to the Axis. That's cheese. Nobody complains about this. We just suck it up and deal with it.

The business up north is merely a way to mitigate the damage resulting from the virtual autoloss of Leningrad. Otherwise, the Axis runs amok post Leningrad on the northern end of the map (some Soviet players continue to insist this is perfectly ok, but there you go.)

Give Leningrad some real ability to defend itself, and then we'll chat about the Finns.

As expected like Pelton(GHC) you will sink to any depth to defend your sides (SHC) cheese.

Nothing new here Flaviusx defends his cheese by calling the german's side cheese more cheesy, heheh you should run for political office.