Russian BF

[Chris21wen]

Don't know how many of you have got to Soviet activation Aug 48 but the Russians do not have enough AV support for tha amount of a/c they have. Not only does this impact on a/c repair etc. it also affect the BF themselves. It is only the 14 Aug, two weeks into the Russian campaign and I have 3 BF with fatigue levels over 90 (one at 98) plus 3 or 4 more at over 50 and rising.

As far as I'm concerned this is not very realistic and needs changing.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Don't know how many of you have got to Soviet activation Aug 48 but the Russians do not have enough AV support for tha amount of a/c they have. Not only does this impact on a/c repair etc. it also affect the BF themselves. It is only the 14 Aug, two weeks into the Russian campaign and I have 3 BF with fatigue levels over 90 (one at 98) plus 3 or 4 more at over 50 and rising.

As far as I'm concerned this is not very realistic and needs changing.

I would just move in US base forces. Not realistic but a workaround if it really is causing a problem for you. At this stage of the war you should easily be able to move a convoy to the Soviets. Didn't even know the game goes that far. Is it still fun to play at this stage?

[ckammp]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Don't know how many of you have got to Soviet activation Aug 48 but the Russians do not have enough AV support for tha amount of a/c they have. Not only does this impact on a/c repair etc. it also affect the BF themselves. It is only the 14 Aug, two weeks into the Russian campaign and I have 3 BF with fatigue levels over 90 (one at 98) plus 3 or 4 more at over 50 and rising.

As far as I'm concerned this is not very realistic and needs changing.

Soviet VVS Base Forces start the game on 7 Dec 41 with 30 AV each. Their TOE is 90 AV each.
Automatic Soviet activation, as per the manual, is 1 Aug 45. The build rate for Aviation Support squads for the Allies is 600/month. By the time of Automatic Soviet activation, the Allies will have produced over 25,000 Aviation Support squads.

If you don't have your VVS Base Forces at full AV strength by 1 Aug 45, the fault is yours, not the game designers.

[PaulvonHindenburg]

ORIGINAL: ckammp

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Don't know how many of you have got to Soviet activation Aug 48 but the Russians do not have enough AV support for tha amount of a/c they have. Not only does this impact on a/c repair etc. it also affect the BF themselves. It is only the 14 Aug, two weeks into the Russian campaign and I have 3 BF with fatigue levels over 90 (one at 98) plus 3 or 4 more at over 50 and rising.

As far as I'm concerned this is not very realistic and needs changing.

Soviet VVS Base Forces start the game on 7 Dec 41 with 30 AV each. Their TOE is 90 AV each.
Automatic Soviet activation, as per the manual, is 1 Aug 45. The build rate for Aviation Support squads for the Allies is 600/month. By the time of Automatic Soviet activation, the Allies will have produced over 25,000 Aviation Support squads.

If you don't have your VVS Base Forces at full AV strength by 1 Aug 45, the fault is yours, not the game designers.

+1

[geofflambert]

[8|]I've proven myself to be a complete nincompoop in the past, but I didn't think you could do much of anything with the Soviets prior to activation. Do you mean make sure their replacements are turned on and their upgrades are allowed? I've tried to ship supplies to their remote bases but the game won't let you. I've even tried giving them some xAKs so they could ship supplies themselves, but there's no Soviet HQ you can change them to. [&:]

edit: I did this before I got on the latest Beta, and the Russian troops at those remote locations were just starving to death. Has that been fixed?

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: ckammp

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Don't know how many of you have got to Soviet activation Aug 48 but the Russians do not have enough AV support for tha amount of a/c they have. Not only does this impact on a/c repair etc. it also affect the BF themselves. It is only the 14 Aug, two weeks into the Russian campaign and I have 3 BF with fatigue levels over 90 (one at 98) plus 3 or 4 more at over 50 and rising.

As far as I'm concerned this is not very realistic and needs changing.

Soviet VVS Base Forces start the game on 7 Dec 41 with 30 AV each. Their TOE is 90 AV each.
Automatic Soviet activation, as per the manual, is 1 Aug 45. The build rate for Aviation Support squads for the Allies is 600/month. By the time of Automatic Soviet activation, the Allies will have produced over 25,000 Aviation Support squads.

If you don't have your VVS Base Forces at full AV strength by 1 Aug 45, the fault is yours, not the game designers.

Where are you in game time? If you have reached the 15 Aug 1945 than you and +1 below will understand the problem.

So for your benefit I will put the problem in figures.

There are 3 Air HQ with 180 each, 25 VVS BF each with a max of 90 AS, 6 Outpost with 8 AS each and 3 named BF of 30, 60 and 120 AS. Grand total of 3348 Aviation support. On the 1 Aug all BF were at max AS.

There are 127 air units with 32 max plus a further 34 with varying numbers of a/c for a grand total of 4406 aircraft. All air were also at max (except for one outpost) on the 1 Aug.

This is a shortfall of 1058 aviation support. Some of those were under training/rest but not a quarter of the avilable a/c and certainly not at the start of a campaign that historically steamrollered the Japanese. Further given the Soviets have just spent the last three and half years training and are all mainly 60 plus in their necessary skill training has little effect.

Two weeks in the end result is some very tired engineers. and aircraft that are not being repaired.

[jcjordan]

I've reached that point (Oct45 as I'm playing vs AI just to the bitter end to see effects though I won it in Sept44), it's not a matter of the BF not being up to full strength. It's a matter that the Soviets have far more a/c units & therefore more a/c strength that the limited # of BF units they have including air HQ can support leading to the problem descibed so it is a db/scenario problem. You can do as Castor says move other Allied bf into to help (which is what I'm doing) but I've discovered a problem there that I posted in the Tech Forum. You can unload other Allied units at Soviet port bases but can't move them from there. The only case you can move them from Soviet base to Soviet base is if either base is a former Japanese base, if it was a Soviet base from the start you can't move anything but Soviet forces from it nor can you refuel any ships other than Soviet ones though you can unload/load cargo/troops.

A quick solution to the AV problem, might be to have another TOE upgrade in Aug45 for bf to maybe 120/150/180 or even new bf units altogether to represent the reinforcements for August Storm offensive. The solution to the other problem I mentioned is unknown at this time as I've seen no reply from Michael on it.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

[8|]I've proven myself to be a complete nincompoop in the past, but I didn't think you could do much of anything with the Soviets prior to activation. Do you mean make sure their replacements are turned on and their upgrades are allowed? I've tried to ship supplies to their remote bases but the game won't let you. I've even tried giving them some xAKs so they could ship supplies themselves, but there's no Soviet HQ you can change them to. [&:]

edit: I did this before I got on the latest Beta, and the Russian troops at those remote locations were just starving to death. Has that been fixed?

Correct, and you are right, you cannot ship anything to a Soviet port nor fly anything to a Soviet base prior to activation. You can train air units and if you do this from the start you will have mostly high skilled pilots on the 1 Aug 45.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

I've reached that point (Oct45 as I'm playing vs AI just to the bitter end to see effects though I won it in Sept44), it's not a matter of the BF not being up to full strength. It's a matter that the Soviets have far more a/c units & therefore more a/c strength that the limited # of BF units they have including air HQ can support leading to the problem descibed so it is a db/scenario problem. You can do as Castor says move other Allied bf into to help (which is what I'm doing) but I've discovered a problem there that I posted in the Tech Forum. You can unload other Allied units at Soviet port bases but can't move them from there. The only case you can move them from Soviet base to Soviet base is if either base is a former Japanese base, if it was a Soviet base from the start you can't move anything but Soviet forces from it nor can you refuel any ships other than Soviet ones though you can unload/load cargo/troops.

A quick solution to the AV problem, might be to have another TOE upgrade in Aug45 for bf to maybe 120/150/180 or even new bf units altogether to represent the reinforcements for August Storm offensive. The solution to the other problem I mentioned is unknown at this time as I've seen no reply from Michael on it.

Yes that could be done and I might have to do it.

[ckammp]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: ckammp

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Don't know how many of you have got to Soviet activation Aug 48 but the Russians do not have enough AV support for tha amount of a/c they have. Not only does this impact on a/c repair etc. it also affect the BF themselves. It is only the 14 Aug, two weeks into the Russian campaign and I have 3 BF with fatigue levels over 90 (one at 98) plus 3 or 4 more at over 50 and rising.

As far as I'm concerned this is not very realistic and needs changing.

Soviet VVS Base Forces start the game on 7 Dec 41 with 30 AV each. Their TOE is 90 AV each.
Automatic Soviet activation, as per the manual, is 1 Aug 45. The build rate for Aviation Support squads for the Allies is 600/month. By the time of Automatic Soviet activation, the Allies will have produced over 25,000 Aviation Support squads.

If you don't have your VVS Base Forces at full AV strength by 1 Aug 45, the fault is yours, not the game designers.

Where are you in game time? If you have reached the 15 Aug 1945 than you and +1 below will understand the problem.

So for your benefit I will put the problem in figures.

There are 3 Air HQ with 180 each, 25 VVS BF each with a max of 90 AS, 6 Outpost with 8 AS each and 3 named BF of 30, 60 and 120 AS. Grand total of 3348 Aviation support. On the 1 Aug all BF were at max AS.

There are 127 air units with 32 max plus a further 34 with varying numbers of a/c for a grand total of 4406 aircraft. All air were also at max (except for one outpost) on the 1 Aug.

This is a shortfall of 1058 aviation support. Some of those were under training/rest but not a quarter of the avilable a/c and certainly not at the start of a campaign that historically steamrollered the Japanese. Further given the Soviets have just spent the last three and half years training and are all mainly 60 plus in their necessary skill training has little effect.

Two weeks in the end result is some very tired engineers. and aircraft that are not being repaired.

250 AV is the max for any base. The Soviets have more than enough AV to max out several bases.

You have had 3 1/2 game-years to prepare the Soviet infrastructure and plan for activation. If you are not prepared, the fault is, again, yours and not the game designers.

[gradenko2k]

Isn't it the case that once you hit 250 AV in a hex/base, it'll be able to support as many aircraft as you can park there, due to a specific way that the game is coded?

[michaelm75au]

The 250-max AV support should not be in AE. It was a carry-over from WITP, which was removed originally from AE, but somehow unknowingly found its way back into the code at some point.

[ilovestrategy]

From reading this I'm assuming BF means "Base Force". Is this correct?

[jcjordan]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

From reading this I'm assuming BF means "Base Force". Is this correct?

Correct

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: ckammp

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: ckammp





Soviet VVS Base Forces start the game on 7 Dec 41 with 30 AV each. Their TOE is 90 AV each.
Automatic Soviet activation, as per the manual, is 1 Aug 45. The build rate for Aviation Support squads for the Allies is 600/month. By the time of Automatic Soviet activation, the Allies will have produced over 25,000 Aviation Support squads.

If you don't have your VVS Base Forces at full AV strength by 1 Aug 45, the fault is yours, not the game designers.

Where are you in game time? If you have reached the 15 Aug 1945 than you and +1 below will understand the problem.

So for your benefit I will put the problem in figures.

There are 3 Air HQ with 180 each, 25 VVS BF each with a max of 90 AS, 6 Outpost with 8 AS each and 3 named BF of 30, 60 and 120 AS. Grand total of 3348 Aviation support. On the 1 Aug all BF were at max AS.

There are 127 air units with 32 max plus a further 34 with varying numbers of a/c for a grand total of 4406 aircraft. All air were also at max (except for one outpost) on the 1 Aug.

This is a shortfall of 1058 aviation support. Some of those were under training/rest but not a quarter of the avilable a/c and certainly not at the start of a campaign that historically steamrollered the Japanese. Further given the Soviets have just spent the last three and half years training and are all mainly 60 plus in their necessary skill training has little effect.

Two weeks in the end result is some very tired engineers. and aircraft that are not being repaired.

250 AV is the max for any base. The Soviets have more than enough AV to max out several bases.

You have had 3 1/2 game-years to prepare the Soviet infrastructure and plan for activation. If you are not prepared, the fault is, again, yours and not the game designers.

You cannot move any Soviet LCUs prior to activation, all bases that had units capable of building and enough supplies were maxed out for airfields and ports prior to activation. This amounts to 20 level 9/10 of which the the two level 10 are off map bases with static bases. Of the 18 level 9 airfields, 3 are 10+ hexes away being useful for training only, a further 6 are 5+ so suitable for LB, TR etc.

80% of Soviet a/c are short legged and need to advance with the LCUs. I have 5 main attack routes, 2 from the north 1 from the centre and 2 from the south. I've determined that I need to move 3 VVS with the troop, 1 north, 1 centre and 1 south. This leaves six level 9 airfields plus 5 smaller that are in range and capable of offensive operations.

There are only 28 useful VVS to start with and moving any Soveit VVS results in a significant loss of operational aircraft. All this adds up to one thing, there are not enough BF/aviation support for operational needs.

If, as has been pointed out a level 9 air base does not suffer overstacking, why are the VVS at overstacked level 9 bases suffering very high fatique levels.

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: ckammp

ORIGINAL: Chris H




Where are you in game time? If you have reached the 15 Aug 1945 than you and +1 below will understand the problem.

So for your benefit I will put the problem in figures.

There are 3 Air HQ with 180 each, 25 VVS BF each with a max of 90 AS, 6 Outpost with 8 AS each and 3 named BF of 30, 60 and 120 AS. Grand total of 3348 Aviation support. On the 1 Aug all BF were at max AS.

There are 127 air units with 32 max plus a further 34 with varying numbers of a/c for a grand total of 4406 aircraft. All air were also at max (except for one outpost) on the 1 Aug.

This is a shortfall of 1058 aviation support. Some of those were under training/rest but not a quarter of the avilable a/c and certainly not at the start of a campaign that historically steamrollered the Japanese. Further given the Soviets have just spent the last three and half years training and are all mainly 60 plus in their necessary skill training has little effect.

Two weeks in the end result is some very tired engineers. and aircraft that are not being repaired.

250 AV is the max for any base. The Soviets have more than enough AV to max out several bases.

You have had 3 1/2 game-years to prepare the Soviet infrastructure and plan for activation. If you are not prepared, the fault is, again, yours and not the game designers.

You cannot move any Soviet LCUs prior to activation, all bases that had units capable of building and enough supplies were maxed out for airfields and ports prior to activation. This amounts to 20 level 9/10 of which the the two level 10 are off map bases with static bases. Of the 18 level 9 airfields, 3 are 10+ hexes away being useful for training only, a further 6 are 5+ so suitable for LB, TR etc.

80% of Soviet a/c are short legged and need to advance with the LCUs. I have 5 main attack routes, 2 from the north 1 from the centre and 2 from the south. I've determined that I need to move 3 VVS with the troop, 1 north, 1 centre and 1 south. This leaves six level 9 airfields plus 5 smaller that are in range and capable of offensive operations.

There are only 28 useful VVS to start with and moving any Soveit VVS results in a significant loss of operational aircraft. All this adds up to one thing, there are not enough BF/aviation support for operational needs.

If, as has been pointed out a level 9 air base does not suffer overstacking, why are the VVS at overstacked level 9 bases suffering very high fatique levels.

Exactly. You cannot move ground units around until Russia is activated.

As for aviation support well I have noticed the same things Chris H described.

There might be firepower, there might be aircraft but you surely will be lacking aviation support.

Unless you bring some over some US...

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

... If, as has been pointed out a level 9 air base does not suffer overstacking, why are the VVS at overstacked level 9 bases suffering very high fatique levels.

A level 9 airfield does not impact on pilot fatigue. Such a sized airfield allows for any number of aircraft and air units to operate without suffering the overstacking penalties. From the manual, page 214

[center]"An overstacked airfield affects how many aircraft can be launched, casualties from attacks and aircraft repairs."[/center]

The lack of sufficient aviation support also impacts on the turnaround times for getting planes ready. In monsoon areas pilot fatigue is also adversely affected. But one of the major ill effects of having insufficient aviation support is that level bomber offensive missions are reduced by 25%. As the game code is currently working, once you have 250 aviation support at a base, the malus associated with inadequate aviation support is no longer experienced.

If you are experiencing very high fatigue levels for your VVS it is therefore probably some other factor, other than lack of aviation support, which is responsible.

Alfred

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Chris H


If you are experiencing very high fatigue levels for your VVS it is therefore probably some other factor, other than lack of aviation support, which is responsible.

Alfred

Any idea what?

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
the malus associated with inadequate aviation support is no longer experienced.
Alfred

Allright Alfred, we'll allow the Latin usage, but please do not throw any Greek at us. [:-]

[Alfred]

Hard to tell without screenshots etc and additional data.

Not too many games actually reach the auto Soviet activation stage, and of those few, probably even fewer see the Soviets taking a major significant operational initiative as you appear to be doing. There is therefore a distinct possibility that some code gremlins exists which haven't been picked up beforehand eg the discussion in the tech sub-forum re non Soviet LCUs problems moving between Soviet bases.

Anyone here are some odd possibilities, some that might only apply to the unique Soviet situation.

1. You are operating in the Cold weather zone. Problems with this suggestion are:

(a) August is not winter, so cold effects should not apply
(b) the cold zone should not impact on pilot fatigue

but maybe the cold weather zone onset has not been properly switched on hexes coded #90 - IOW those hexes are treated as being in winter all year round. Regarding (b), in introducing the additional pilot fatigue in maleria areas, maybe this feature somehow also migrated to hexes coded #90. Pure speculation on my part regarding these two suggestions but perhaps possible as very few players would have paid any attention to these issues prior to August 1945.

2. Have you accounted for the usual suspects which lead to high pilot fatigue, such as:

(a) flying non-stop missions
(b) the worst affected units flying from airfields with less than 250 aviation support whereas the better supported airfields show relatively lower levels of pilot fatigue
(c) VVS units not having 133% pilots on roster, thus there is no internal pilot rotation
(d) flying at extended ranges

3. Flying airplanes at maximum altitude introduces an additional pilot fatigue penalty. Some of the most numerous Soviet models, eg the Shturmoviks, have very low maximum altitudes and if you are used to flying the equivalent non Soviet models at particular heights you may find yourself flying the Soviet planes at their maximum height.

Alfred