OT: Never Forget Srebrenica

[Emx77]

Double post

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

What is striking that after 17 years you believe to Serbs propaganda ...

The Associated Press isn't a propaganda outlet for Republica Serbska; in fact, most Western media outlets showed a pro-Bosnian bias by not reporting all the atrocities against Serb civilians living in Sreb by Oric and his Bosnian brigands.

No, AP it is not propaganda. I have never said that. They just quoted "Serbs blame Oric and his forces for killing ...".

That was in AP article form 2003. Since that there was a trail at International Court Tribunal against Oric and it was acquitted of all charges. It was all over a news including your beloved AP. Here you can read Associated Press article form 2008 about Hague Court dropping all charges against Oric. Also, International Court and other experts ruled out original Serb claim about 2.000 killed civilians as propaganda and fantasy. So called Christmas massacre incident is well documented but you just ignore the facts.

So, I'm not sure why do you play stupid and what do you want to prove here?

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Looking at the posts here I'm more prone to go by Joe D as he seems to have no agenda nor real personal opinion getting in the way.

...

Emir it's obviously a highly emotive subject to you. Like it or not when feelings get in the way sometimes we refuse to see anything or hear anything that doesn't fit in with our way of thinking.

Wodin, you are right. Subject is emotive for me. That's why I'm trying to be objective by referencing to well known and documented facts established by international courts and international experts. All what I have written is easy to check. Joe maybe have no agenda but he showed that his knowledge about events is very shallow and biased.

This is why History and even first hand accounts are so interesting and intriguing and why even today books come out about WW1 or WW2 or even wars older than that, it's also great to read memoirs from different sides and see the different viewpoints of the same situation.

I agree. Everything what is said about Srebrenica is well documented and went through serious checking from international experts. I only refer to that sources and if you think that they are biased then I'm biased too.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

That was in AP article form 2003. Since that there was a trail at International Court Tribunal against Oric and it was acquitted of all charges ...

Contradicting yourself again?

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Again, it seems that you have very shallow knowledge about what happened in '95. Oric was on trial for war crimes and sentenced to (only) two years in prison. He was acquitted of direct involvement in the murder of prisoners and basically was sentenced for not trying to punish some of his men for doing cruelties against captured Serb soldiers ...

How was Oric "acquitted of all charges" and then sentenced to prison for war crimes? As the Bosnian Commander at Sreb, Oric was responsible for everything his troops did under him.

As this thread continues, it becomes increasingly obvious that you are not only blindly biased, but that you also have a hidden agenda for inserting your OT propaganda here.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

How was Oric "acquitted of all charges" and then sentenced to prison for war crimes? As the Bosnian Commander at Sreb, Oric was responsible for everything his troops did under him.

As this thread continues, it becomes increasingly obvious that you are not only blindly biased, but that you also have a hidden agenda for inserting your OT propaganda here.

Joe D. first read what I have posted then comment. He was sentenced to two years but appeals judges overturned all convictions. I posted the link but you didn't bother with opening it. Here it is again: link to USA Today article (2008) signed by Associated Press writer - Mike Corder.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Again, it seems that you have very shallow knowledge about what happened in '95. Oric was on trial for war crimes and sentenced to (only) two years in prison. He was acquitted of direct involvement in the murder of prisoners and basically was sentenced for not trying to punish some of his men for doing cruelties against captured Serb soldiers ...

As the on site commander of the Bosnian forces in Sreb, Oric's failure to punish, or otherwise deter his own soldiers from committing atrocities is itself a war crime, regardless of the sentence handed down.

Your refusal to face this fact shows deliberate ignorance on your part.

[vonRocko]

Good thread, I'm learning something. By the way Emir, are you guys all getting along now? Or is this anger still simmering, waiting for the right conditions to flare up again?

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
As the on site commander of the Bosnian forces in Sreb, Oric's failure to punish, or otherwise deter his own soldiers from committing atrocities is itself a war crime, regardless of the sentence handed down.

Your refusal to face this fact shows deliberate ignorance on your part.

So you haven't read actual article - again. [>:] If you read it you will find explanation:

"But appeals judges went even further, overturning both convictions because the original trial failed to establish that Oric had control over forces responsible for the crimes" (AP, 2008).

Apparently, you have no idea about awful conditions in Srebrenica during siege by Serbs. 28 Inf D. wasn't professional army unit but bunch of untrained and poorly armed men living under a lot of stress. Most of them already lost family members in ethnic cleansing and were angry on Serbs. Effectively, it is hard to keep such force under strict command of anybody. That's way court found Oric not guilty.

----

Here, we have facts established by independent International court in Hague during long process but, hey, Joe D. knows better:

1. Joe D. said that UN Duchbat were abandoned by Bosnian soldiers to Serbs and not the other way around.

2. Joe D. provided rock solid "evidence" - "Serbs blame Oric...". What do you expect from side which committed genocide in Europe at the end of XX century? Of course, they want to relativize what they have done.

3. Joe D. pulled out of hat that Oric sold Srebrenica in agreement with Serbs and Sarajevo government. Did he provided single reliable source for this? Of course no.

4. Joe D. went to repeat claim about 2.000 killed civilians by Oric, which is well documented Serb propaganda fantasy made to justify their responsibility for genocide.

I need to be clear here. Defenders did take raids against surrounding villages under Serb control. But entire East Bosnia was previously completely ethnically cleansed by Serbs. Surviving population took shelter in Srebrenica and suffered from lack of food, water, medical supplies and practically living in unbearable conditions. As already mentioned, these raids were often organised in order to gather food, as the Serbs had refused access for humanitarian convoys into the enclave. During these raids mostly Serb soldiers were killed as these villages were bases for attack on safe zone. Unfortunately, during fights some Serb civilians were killed also but, again, International Court judgement states that the prosecution failed to present convincing evidence that the Bosnian forces were responsible for them, because the Serb forces used artillery in the fighting in those villages.

etc...

I wonder why Joe D. insist on his attitude despite all sources I presented? There are two possible reasons: a) His vanity is hurted as he failed to show any valid argument and B)he want to put equal sign between aggressors and victims. If this is a case, he need to find some fault on defenders side to be able to say that 8.000 killed (mostly civilians) are only justified retaliation for previous Bosniak actions. That is exactly what radical Serbs are trying to do for years.

Fortunately, a lot has been written and documented about these events and I ask anyone who not believe me to check through Internet and other independent sources about what happened in Srebrenica and generally in Bosnia during '92-'95.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Good thread, I'm learning something. By the way Emir, are you guys all getting along now? Or is this anger still simmering, waiting for the right conditions to flare up again?

First, you need to realize that war is stopped at point where there was no clear winner. Because of that, Bosnia is probably country with most complex and costly political system in a world. That leads to another bunch of problems in every aspect of life. My personal opinion is that, as you said, there is a still lot of tension threatening to flare up again under right conditions. Unfortunately.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Apparently, you have no idea about awful conditions in Srebrenica during siege by Serbs. 28 Inf D. wasn't professional army unit but bunch of untrained and poorly armed men living under a lot of stress ...

.... who soon broke and ran when they learned their commander, Nasar Oric, was airlifted out of Sreb on orders from the Bosnian leadership in Sarajevo.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
1. Joe D. said that UN Duchbat were abandoned by Bosnian soldiers to Serbs and not the other way around.

See above; learning that their commander had left Sreb was demoralizing, as if Davy Crocket had waved goodbye and wished good luck to the defenders of the Alamo!

The Bosnian troops who decided it was wiser to leave town not only abandoned the outnumbered Dutch peackeepers, but the unarmed Bosnian civilians in Sreb who were then left to the mercy of Serbs bent on avenging those "ethnically cleansed" by Oric's men as reported by the Associated Press.

As for the rest of your numbered remarks, the fact that you haven't directly qouted me strongly suggests that you are deliberately twisiting my words for your own agenda, but that's not surprising: one of the first things I learned during my time peacekeeping in Bosnia was that truth is often relative to the teller.

[Emx77]

Joe D. I have no intention to argue with you anymore as you continuing to spit your nonsense regardless what I post. You showed zero knowledge of real facts and all of what you have posted here are products of lies, half-truths or pure fantasies.

As replay to you previous post, only two things as rest is not worth effort and time:

1. I have already told you that Oric was airlifted two months prior then everyone knew what Serbs had planned.

2. Bosnian troops fought till the end (see US military analysis bellow). After they weren't able to hold line against advancing tanks they started hasty withdraw through Serbs controlled territory along with a lot of civilians. Many of them never reached friendly territory as they were constantly ambushed along 100 km route or died in minefileds. Those who surrendered were executed. Even today, a visitors from over a world every year come to Bosnia to walk the same route of horror and to give honor to victims of that march.

Here is a article written by Valerie Hopkins (or you think she is also Oric propagandist?) about this year march:

Thousands Embark on Peace March to Srebrenica



Also, as you obviously need to be educated, here is military analysis about what Bosnian forces were able to do in order to prevent the fall of Srebrenica (you believe US officials, right?):

"...
Even if every other factor had operated in its favor, without heavy weapons the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica.
...
In sum, acting 28th Division commander Becirovic probably made the most sensible choice for the circumstances of the moment. Only in hindsight could it be said that fighting and dying in the enclave mightseem a nobler course than the surrendering and dying that was to be the fate of so many of the defenders. At the time, none of Becirovic's visible alternatives seemed viable.
...
The surrounded enclave was completely dependent on the UN for not only its defense but also for its sustenance—food, medical assistance, military defense, and political protection.
...
Such must have been Becirovic's thinking when he entrusted everything to the UN, which offered the only defense available to him—and left him without a backup plan if that defense should fail. It is only with the hindsight knowledge of the UN's failure and its consequences that Becirovic's last unchosen option — a sacrificial last stand—can reasonably be examined. House-to-house battles fought in the streets of Srebrenica and a guerrilla war conducted from the surrounding woods: these now look preferable to the docile surrenders and desperate flights that left thousands executed in the fields outside the town. What we know now they did not know then, however, and it is uncertain that in terms of lives lost and advantages gained another military option would have had any better outcome.

A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference, given the Serbs' traditional reluctance to close with the enemy and suffer the inevitable combat losses of modem urban warfare. There were serious problems even with this course of action. Not all the men of the 28th Division were armed, and after the Serbs attacked few had more than a day's supply of ammunition. Even when the ARBiH decapitated the first Serb column on 10 July and seized a critical defensive point, it took Becirovic too long to round up too few men to exploit the opportunity. A street-by-street contest for Srebrenica town at that point would probably have prolonged the fight and increased the losses to the Bosnian Serbs, but it could only have delayed, not changed, the final outcome.
..."

Balkan Battlegrounds - A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995, Vol. I, Washington, 2002

I think only this is enough for everyone who is carefully reading this thread to conclude that you have no clue about what you are talking about. In your fantasy world these lightly armed and doomed men were supposed to protect UN soldiers! Oh, well... there is nothing more to discuss with you after this colossal stupidity.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Joe D. I have no intention to argue with you anymore as you continuing to spit your nonsense regardless what I post. You showed zero knowledge of real facts and all of what you have posted here are products of lies, half-truths or pure fantasies ....

You've just described your own version of the fall of Sreb, which I have refuted by spitting it back in your face.

As for your article ...

"A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference ..."

... yet it wasn't made, and although Bosnian troops were much more numerous than the token Dutch peacekeeping force, you attached no blame to your fellow countrymen for failing to make a stand at Sreb. After all, wasn't that why they were assigned there in the first place?

"Even if every other factor had operated in its favor, without heavy weapons the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica ..."

Apparently the Tito-trained Bosniacs never heard of a "Molotov Cocktail," and much of that "puny armored column" was WW II vintage.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
I think only this is enough for everyone who is carefully reading this thread to conclude that you have no clue about what you are talking about. In your fantasy world these lightly armed and doomed men were supposed to protect UN soldiers! ...

No, they were supposed to stand side-by-side with Dutch peacekeepers to defend the defenseless civilians in Sreb, but they decided not to do their duty, and for that you have repeatedly blamed everyone except these "lightly armed" Bosnian soldiers.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

You've just described your own version of the fall of Sreb, which I have refuted by spitting it back in your face.

As for your article ...

"A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference ..."

Genius, why haven't you finished quote? You just pulled out of a context a half sentence which is only a little along your point of view ignoring pretty much everything else.

"Even if every other factor had operated in its favor, without heavy weapons the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica ..."

Apparently the Tito-trained Bosniacs never heard of a "Molotov Cocktail," and much of that "puny armored column" was WW II vintage.

No, they were supposed to stand side-by-side with Dutch peacekeepers to defend the defenseless civilians in Sreb, but they decided not to do their duty, and for that you have repeatedly blamed everyone except these "lightly armed" Bosnian soldiers.

Seriously, are you on drugs? You have to be. Apart from ignoring analysts who wrote that the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica, your advice to defenders under heavy artillery barrage would be to throw molotovs at tanks while, at the same time, your beloved Dutch peacekeepers were sitting pathetically in their APCs with TOWs and not firing a shot at approaching Serbs?

Also, are you aware that almost every single soldier in Srebrenica had at least a relative among civilians (many had close family members)? Why in the hell do you think they would abandoned them and take a 100 km almost suicide march over enemy territory if they were able to defend enclave? Only 1 out of 5 who tried to get to friendly territory actually made it. No, in your version they are cowards. What a load of crap.

[Emx77]

Oh, and I have forgotten the best part - defenders were misguided by Dutch commander to abandon last line of defence... As in fore mentioned CIA analysis: "After conferring with the civilian leaders of the enclave, acting 28th Division commander Becirovic had even pulled his troops back from the "zone of death" in which Karremans believed NATO warplanes were going to devastate the Serb forces."

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Apart from ignoring analysts who wrote that the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica ...

The same analysts who wrote that (at first) they did stop them?

"Even when the ARBiH decapitated the first Serb column on 10 July and seized a critical defensive point, it took Becirovic too long to round up too few men to exploit the opportunity ..."

Sounds like the problem had more to do with the division's temporary commander, but the decision to evac Oric at the expense of the moral of his troops still in Sreb remains with the Bosnian leadership in Sarejevo.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
Also, are you aware that almost every single soldier in Srebrenica had at least a relative among civilians (many had close family members)? Why in the hell do you think they would abandoned them ....

Since you live in Sarajevo, why don't you ask them yourself?

[wodin]

Quick question after looking at the map..why didn't the 28th head towards the 285th and join forces with them. I see they were surrounded but at least it offered more troops and protection..maybe a fighting withdrawal with civs in tow to the 285th would have been a wiser move.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Apart from ignoring analysts who wrote that the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica ...

The same analysts who wrote that (at first) they did stop them?

"Even when the ARBiH decapitated the first Serb column on 10 July and seized a critical defensive point, it took Becirovic too long to round up too few men to exploit the opportunity ..."

Ok, as you are paying attention to my lessons and as you obviously don't have any documents to back up any of your initial claims I will continue to educate you using first grade military analysis written by your government agency.

So this is what happened at July 10:
-----
At about 0700, Srebrenica's defenders mounted their only successful counterattack, near the village of Kozlje about 2 kilometers south of Srebrenica. A roughly company-sized force of volunteers from the 28th Division's elite "maneuver unit" bushwhacked the farthest advanced group of Serbs while they were still asleep. Firing at close range, the Bosnian commandos damaged a Serb T-55 tank with a rocket-propelled grenade, while a spray of machine gun bullets raked through a platoon of sleeping Serbs. For many of them, it was a last wake-up call, and (heir surprised and disorganized companions fled the field, a second T-55 dragging the damaged tank southward.The exultant Muslims realized that there were no enemy troops between the advance element they had just dispatched and the main body of the attacking force to the south. A kilometer or more of contested territory lay open before them. Captain Mido Salihovic, commanding the raiding party, urgently called for reinforcements to take and reoccupy the key high ground around OP Foxtrot, where the battle had begun four days earlier. The UN had not saved the enclave, but for a moment it looked as though the town's Muslim defenders might defy the odds and do it themselves.

The little battle at Kozlje once again showed the critical limitations of the Bosnian Army. Armed with skill, bravery, small arms, surprise, and luck, a handpicked force of 100 or so troops had not only blunted the Bosnian Serb attack but had actually forced the advance VRS elements—including two tanks—into outright retreat. As so often before, the Bosnian Serbs were able to win back the lost hand with their ubiquitous trump card: field artillery fire, which the Muslims had no way of countering. As soon as the Muslims occupied the key hills at Kozlje and nearby Zivkovo Brdo, VRS artillery and mortar fire rained down on them. The ARBiH infantry was pinned down for bours, unable to advance, unwilling to retreat, and slowly accumulating casualties as shrapnel and tree bursts wounded troops hiding in or under whatever cover they could find.

While the commandos clung to their perilous position, 28th Division commander Ramiz Becirovic was frantically scrambling to find reinforcements to send south to their support Although he might have had 3,000 or more troops under his command, probably fewer than a third of them were even armed. These few hundred armed men were all Becirovic had to defend nearly 50 kilometers of frontline, and none of his subordinate brigade commanders was willing to thin his own frontline forces to create a mobile reserve. Late in the day, Becirovic finally scraped together a scratch force to send south, but the reinforcements were too few and their arrival too late to change the course of the battle.

While Becirovic and his 28th Division subordinates bobbled their chance for a counterattack, the Serbs continued to pound the daring Muslims who had reoccupied the hills around Kozlje. By midaftemoon casualties and withdrawals had reduced the original force of 100 to only 10 defenders posted above the morning's ambush site. When the Serbian advance force, reinforced and reorganized, finally returned with a tank and a full infantry company around 1600, there was nothing the 10 Muslim defenders could do to stop them.

Balkan Battlegrounds - A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995, Vol. I, Washington, 2002
-----

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
Also, are you aware that almost every single soldier in Srebrenica had at least a relative among civilians (many had close family members)? Why in the hell do you think they would abandoned them ....

Since you live in Sarajevo, why don't you ask them yourself?

Who to ask? Those few who survived? In a matter of fact this question of your is so low that is showing not only that you have black holes in your knowledge regarding Srebrenica but also that you are not able to show minimum respect to those who were abandoned by UN and tried their best in givens circumstances losing their lives and loved ones. Shame on you.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Quick question after looking at the map..why didn't the 28th head towards the 285th and join forces with them. I see they were surrounded but at least it offered more troops and protection..maybe a fighting withdrawal with civs in tow to the 285th would have been a wiser move.

I'm not sure, probably Serbs had strong line in that sector or the terrain was impassable. From map you can see that they attacked from south and road between 28 Division and 285 Brigade is in some sort of canyon.

Nevertheless, what you see as territory of 285th brigade was another UN safe zone - Zepa village. That safe zone was overrun by Serbs only 20 days after Srebrenica.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Ok, as you are paying attention to my lessons and as you obviously don't have any documents to back up any of your initial claims I will continue to educate you ...

Your lessons?
You didn't author any of this material; all you've done is cut & paste it into this thread, sometimes highlighting the text, which only shows that you've mastered elementary desktop publishing techniques.

And though it's been more than a decade since I've been in Bosnia, when it was still part of Yugoslavia, it was a province of the largest supplier of land mines to the Warsaw Pact Forces. During the Yugo wars of secession, land mines were in plentiful supply to combatants on all sides, and they used them extensively; when I left the Balkans, they were still demining the region, and they are probably still discovering mines today.

So if Sarejevo could airlift Oric and his henchmen out of Sreb and out of harm's way, it could have airlifted anti-tank and other munitions (RPGs) into Sreb so that its defenders could mine the roads leading into town.

But since you claim live in the Balkans, why didn't you think of this?
It seems you're the one in need of an education.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
Also, are you aware that almost every single soldier in Srebrenica had at least a relative among civilians (many had close family members)? Why in the hell do you think they would abandoned them ....

Since you live in Sarajevo, why don't you ask them yourself?

Who to ask? Those few who survived? In a matter of fact this question of your is so low that is showing not only that you have black holes in your knowledge regarding Srebrenica but also that you are not able to show minimum respect to those who were abandoned by UN and tried their best in givens circumstances losing their lives and loved ones. Shame on you.

They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.