OT: Never Forget Srebrenica

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Ok, as you are paying attention to my lessons and as you obviously don't have any documents to back up any of your initial claims I will continue to educate you ...

Your lessons?
You didn't author any of this material; all you've done is cut & paste it into this thread, sometimes highlighting the text, which only shows that you've mastered elementary desktop publishing techniques.

I just quoted western sources for you to learn the lesson as you didn't know any of this. Otherwise, if I didn't, you would blame me for being biased. In that way we can say that I helped you to get a better understanding of things you thought you knew.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


Since you live in Sarajevo, why don't you ask them yourself?

Who to ask? Those few who survived? In a matter of fact this question of your is so low that is showing not only that you have black holes in your knowledge regarding Srebrenica but also that you are not able to show minimum respect to those who were abandoned by UN and tried their best in givens circumstances losing their lives and loved ones. Shame on you.

They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.

Now you sound like broken record repeating same stuff over and over again. Everyone, with IQ higher then amoeba can get clear understanding of defenders situation from above posted analysis. But what to expect from guy who is not able to understand simple AP news and is ignorant to everything which doesn't fit in his narrow point of view?

[Emx77]

GEN. SHEEHAN BLAMES GAY DUTCHBAT TROOPS FOR SREBRENICA GENOCIDE

A former American general has blamed homosexuals serving in the Dutch military for the fall of Srebrenica.

Fifteen years after the safe area of Srebrenica fell to Serb militias, an American general has found the cause: homosexuals had weakened the Dutch UN battalion charged with protecting the enclave. John Sheehan, a former high-ranking Nato official, said this on Thursday when he publicly addressed the American president Barack Obama’s plans to allow gays to serve in the military.

According to the charges brought against the Bosnian-Serb leader Radovan Karadzic at the special tribunal in The Hague, 9,210 Muslim men were killed in Srebrenica and its surrounding area in 1995. A Dutch UN battalion had been charged with the task of protecting the valley against the Serbs. A study by the Dutch research institute NIOD has found that the soldiers did not have an adequate mandate to act and the battalion was insufficiently prepared.

Speaking in the American Senate, Sheehan said European countries tried to “socialise” their armed forces by letting people serve in the army too easily, which left them weakened.

The former general claimed his opinion was shared by the leadership of the Dutch armed forces. Carl Levin, chairman of the U.S. Senate's Armed Services Committee, asked: "Did the Dutch leaders tell you it was because there were gay soldiers there?"

Sheehan answered in the affirmative, mentioning the name „Hankman Berman”, most probably referring to the then chief of defence staff, Henk van den Breemen.

Joe D. - I know you mentioned hanging around with some Dutch soldiers from Srebrenica. Could it be that you are more then just a friend with one of them? Maybe you have found your soulmate? That would explain your ignorance, mocking of genocide survivals, and pathetic attempts to switch all responsibility from UN and Serbs to victims.

[Jevhaddah_Slitherine]

Oh Dear, oh Dear, oh Dear....

Cheers

Jev

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

I just quoted western sources for you to learn the lesson as you didn't know any of this. Otherwise, if I didn't, you would blame me for being biased ...

You've already admitted to an emotional bias, and as a DINFOS-trained journalist , I am a "western source".

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.

Now you sound like broken record repeating same stuff over and over again. Everyone, with IQ higher then amoeba can get clear understanding of defenders situation from above posted analysis ...

Anyone can cut and paste, but understanding requires more than that, which is why I've had to repeat myself to you time and again.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Joe D. - I know you mentioned hanging around with some Dutch soldiers from Srebrenica ...

I "mentioned" that I trained with Dutch and Canadian peacekeepers during Co-Operative Best Effort in '99, but the blame for the fall of Sreb runs from the UN down to the Bosnian troops on the ground that abandoned them to the mercy of irate Serbs "avenging" the war crimes of your own Naser Oric.

And as for you, dressing-up in fatigues while wearing dark glasses with a "coffin nail" dangling from your mouth doesn't make you "hard core," unless you're also a porn star as well as a BS artist.

[vonRocko]

Oh geez....Is the conflict to recent? To much emotion for objective discussion.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

You've already admitted to an emotional bias, and as a DINFOS-trained journalist , I am a "western source".

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.

Now you sound like broken record repeating same stuff over and over again. Everyone, with IQ higher then amoeba can get clear understanding of defenders situation from above posted analysis ...

Anyone can cut and paste, but understanding requires more than that, which is why I've had to repeat myself to you time and again.

If you are journalist and western source may you tell us how many books, articles, analysis or anything else you wrote about the subject? I am sure that you didn't read anything, even less wrote about it. Maybe, only exception is short AP news from 2003 which you weren't able to understand. To be worse you didn't know many key facts (for example, that court found Oric not guilty, that he was evacuated two months prior assault, you didn't know order of battle of any side, confusing events and timeline, repeating well documented serbs propaganda over and over again etc, etc...).

Regarding your remark about understanding, you repeated yourself because you didn't have anything else (see paragraph above). As a matter of fact, you spitted such stupidities, misconceptions and fantasies that is expected vortex to be formed above your head sucking you in for a good of human race.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
And as for you, dressing-up in fatigues while wearing dark glasses with a "coffin nail" dangling from your mouth doesn't make you "hard core," unless you're also a porn star as well as a BS artist.

If you want to know my profile avatar is a work of my fourteen years old brother who, at that time, started to play with Photoshop and added "coffin nail" and dark glasses as a joke. Probably BS art but it is dear to me.

[warspite1]

Gents I think you should agree to disagree now and call it a day - it's just a slanging match and one or both of you will end up banned.

Whaddya say?

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Gents I think you should agree to disagree now and call it a day - it's just a slanging match and one or both of you will end up banned.

Whaddya say?

I agree. I said everything what has to be said. Anyone can read through thread up to post #40 and make his own conclusion. Even better, if you are interested, go research on your own about subject.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

If you are journalist and western source may you tell us how many books, articles, analysis or anything else you wrote about the subject? ...

DINFOS-trained journalist, as in Defense Information School, Ft. Meade, MD.

Beginning in May 2000, I rotated as editor, ass't editor and later lead writer for the Talon, an Army-funded magazine, out of Eagle Base, Tuzla, for almost 6 months.

Otherwise, two college papers at SCSU on the Dayton Accords and the Vance-Owen Peace Plan.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
... As a matter of fact, you spitted such stupidities, misconceptions and fantasies that is expected vortex to be formed above your head sucking you in for a good of human race.

Sounds like you want to "ethnically cleanse" me, which makes you no different from your like-minded neighbors who want to rid the human race of you as well.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
... As a matter of fact, you spitted such stupidities, misconceptions and fantasies that is expected vortex to be formed above your head sucking you in for a good of human race.

Sounds like you want to "ethnically cleanse" me, which makes you no different from your like-minded neighbors who want to rid the human race of you as well.

I would expect that DINFOS-trained journalist know what "ethnic cleansing" actually means.

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

If you are journalist and western source may you tell us how many books, articles, analysis or anything else you wrote about the subject? ...

DINFOS-trained journalist, as in Defense Information School, Ft. Meade, MD.

Beginning in May 2000, I rotated as editor, ass't editor and later lead writer for the Talon, an Army-funded magazine, out of Eagle Base, Tuzla, for almost 6 months.

Otherwise, two college papers at SCSU on the Dayton Accords and the Vance-Owen Peace Plan.

Just as expected. Nothing about subject.

One question. Your repeated assertion about blame of Bosnian troops and Sarajevo government for cowardly abandoning Srebrenica civilians and UN forces to the Serbs - Was it a official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude?

[Keunert]

it is a shame that a thread on such a tragic moment of recent european history has to turn in another forum fight. i remember watching those pictures as a teenage boy on television and i later read the incredible moving account of Joe Sacco on a similiar topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_Area_Gora%C5%BEde

no matter what, the inability to avoid Sebrenica was a lowpoint in europes recent history. my thoughts are with the victims.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

I would expect that DINFOS-trained journalist know what "ethnic cleansing" actually means.

I think you captured the meaning of it below, albeit unintentionally:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
... As a matter of fact, you spitted such stupidities, misconceptions and fantasies that is expected vortex to be formed above your head sucking you in for a good of human race.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
One question. Your repeated assertion about blame of Bosnian troops and Sarajevo government for cowardly abandoning Srebrenica civilians and UN forces to the Serbs - Was it a official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude?

Perhaps you should re-read your own cut & paste remarks:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference ...

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

One question. Your repeated assertion about blame of Bosnian troops and Sarajevo government for cowardly abandoning Srebrenica civilians and UN forces to the Serbs - Was it a official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude?

Perhaps you should re-read your own cut & paste remarks:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference ...

Perhaps you, as DINFOS-trained journalist, shouldn't pull out something out of context. Whole citation gives totally different conclusion:

A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference, given the Serbs' traditional reluctance to close with the enemy and suffer the inevitable combat losses of modem urban warfare. There were serious problems even with this course of action. Not all the men of the 28th Division were armed, and after the Serbs attacked few had more than a day's supply of ammunition. Even when the ARBiH decapitated the first Serb column on 10 July and seized a critical defensive point, it took Becirovic too long to round up too few men to exploit the opportunity. A street-by-street contest for Srebrenica town at that point would probably have prolonged the fight and increased the losses to the Bosnian Serbs, but it could only have delayed, not changed, the final outcome.

Balkan Battlegrounds - A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995, Vol. I, Washington, 2002

BTW, you avoided to answer a question so here it is again:

Your repeated assertion about blame of Bosnian troops and Sarajevo government for cowardly abandoning Srebrenica civilians and UN forces to the Serbs - Was it a official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude?

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Perhaps you, as DINFOS-trained journalist, shouldn't pull out something out of context ....

My use of ellipsis ... indicates additional text when condensing quotes; it's called English, and someday you may learn it well enough to use it properly, but that day hasn't arrived yet.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
BTW, you avoided to answer a question so here it is again ....

It wasn't a question, but another of your poorly worded accusations of what you claim I said, instead of what I actually said.

Here's what I actually said, using the quote function provided on this forum.

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.

I don't see the word "cowardly" anywhere in this, or in any of my other quotes, which means you've been deliberately misquoting what you claimed I said: that makes you a liar, and you've been lying on this thread since post #31.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Joe D. I have no intention to argue with you anymore ...

So how many argumentative posts have you made since this lie?

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Perhaps you, as DINFOS-trained journalist, shouldn't pull out something out of context ....

My use of ellipsis ... indicates additional text when condensing quotes; it's called English, and someday you may learn it well enough to use it properly, but that day hasn't arrived yet.

Your use of ellipsis prove that you are light years apart from real journalist. Pulling couple of words out of contexts and ignoring point of what original author said is called twisting of facts.

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.

I don't see the word "cowardly" anywhere in this, or in any of my other quotes, which means you've been deliberately misquoting what you claimed I said: that makes you a liar, and you've been lying on this thread since post #31.

You call yourself journalist but you don't know what is quoting. I didn't quoted you. I just summed what you are claiming in various posts whole time. As for "cowardly" - it is logical conclusion from your claim. You don't need to write it directly. And again, you are running away from the essence.

Now, I'm asking you for the third time. Was your claim, about civilians abandoned by the Bosnian troops and war time leaders in Sarajevo, official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude? Please, just say - yes or no.

[Emx77]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
So how many argumentative posts have you made since this lie?

Let me see who is laying here:

1). Joe. D.: "As the Bosnian Commander at Sreb, Oric was responsible for everything his troops did under him" - LIE, International Court overturned all convictions against Oric.

2) Joe D. went to repeat claim about 2.000 killed civilians by Oric. LIE and well documented Serb propaganda fantasy made to justify their responsibility for genocide.

3) Joe. D.: "The Dutch peacekeepers were so few in number that they more of a trip-wire than a deterrent to aggression". - LIE

4) Joe. D.: "The few hundred Dutch peacekeepers left behind in Sreb were abandoned by both the UN and the Bosnian soldiers" - I don't even how to call this. Fantasy, twisting of fact, lie? It was other way around.

5) Joe. D.: "The Bosnian troops who decided it was wiser to leave town not only abandoned the outnumbered Dutch peacekeepers, but the unarmed Bosnian civilians in Sreb who were then left to the mercy of Serbs", - LIE

Bosnian troops didn't decide to leave and go to vacation. They were defeated and defense collapsed, because:

a) Third of them were even armed (primarily because of UN imposed arms embargo)
b) Few hundred armed men had to defend nearly 50 kilometers of frontline
c) Without heavy weapons the ARBiH had no way of stopping Serbs armor
d) After the Serbs attacked few had more than a day's supply of ammunition
e) They were misinformed by Dutch commander about NATO airstrikes
f) Dutch peacekeepers didn't responded with fire to Serb assault on enclave and their own outposts. So they were left on their own.
g) After collapse of defense line some of defenders, accompanied with a large number of civilians, tried to reach friendly territory and set out for a 100 km march of death through minefields and Serbs territory. Only 1 out of 5 who tried to get to friendly territory survived.

These are all well known and documented facts which Joe D. seems to ignore. Joe D. saying that "The Bosnian troops decided it was wiser to leave town" would be the same as if he said that Warsaw Ghetto defenders decided to leave and left civilians at the mercy of Nazis.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

You call yourself journalist but you don't know what is quoting. I didn't quoted you. I just summed what you are claiming in various posts whole time. As for "cowardly" - it is logical conclusion from your claim. You don't need to write it directly. And again, you are running away from the essence ...

As I'm still here, I'm not running away from anything.

"Quoting" is when a writer claims to record what someone else said, but if it's not what he said, it's not called a "logical conclusion," it's called a "lie," which makes you a liar.

But perhaps you have another word for it: taqiyya?

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
... Joe D. saying that "The Bosnian troops decided it was wiser to leave town" would be the same as if he said that Warsaw Ghetto defenders decided to leave and left civilians at the mercy of Nazis.

Yet another example of Godwin's Law, and it only took Emir two pages to get there.