Question?

[xe5]

I know Im not alone among CC vets in hoping PitF will present a solo-play challenge

[Kanov]

I still don't understand something, with everything up to the same scale, are the internal algorithms adjusted for the larger distances? or just the data is adjusted for the larger distances?

For example a personal flamethrower in old CC has a 30 meters range, both in game and in the data.

Are the formulas adjusted in PITF internal logic to compensate for larger distances so the FT data max range in the data files is still at 30 meters? or is the flamethrower data set at 80 meters(just an example, random number) to look like 30 meters in game now that everything is bigger?

[SteveMcClaire]

The internal scale of the game engine has been adjusted, so it is not just a visual change in the size of the vehicle graphics.  Where 30m used to be 150 pixels on the screen, it is now 240 pixels on the screen.  The data file would still say 50m, in the example you gave.
 
 

[Tejszd]

Atomic used;
Map 5 pixels per m
Vehicles 8 pixels per m (some mods use larger)
Soldiers 12 pixels per m

For PitF you have;
Map 8 pixels per m (240oixels for 30m as mentioned in the above post)
Vehicles = ? it looks/sounds like vehicles were made larger but to what?
Soldiers = ? any change?

If vehicles were made larger hopefully they now match the soldiers so that 2 out of the 3 scales match???

[SteveMcClaire]

The soldier sprites (10 pixels/meter)  are unchanged in those screenshots and probably will not be re-done, though this is still under discussion.  So the vehicles and terrain scale are now the same, while the soldiers are slightly overscale (but much closer than before).
 

[Tejszd]

Will there be an option to adjust the scales used in the game engine so that previous mod data/graphics/maps can be used?

[SteveMcClaire]

Mods for earlier versions of CC will need a fair bit of re-working to use under PitF, for a variety of reasons.  It's a bit early to start discussing all the details of how this will work, but there probably will not be a way to change the game scale of pixels / meter.  Rather we'll re-size old-style graphics where necessary when we load them.  In many cases the game can handle loading either old-style files (like a map BGM) automatically but there may be some loss in quality.
 

[GaryChildress]

In order to mod the game will traditional modding programs such as 5CC tool etc work or will there be new editing tools included? I think I asked this before but will the graphics files be in TGA format or will they be in a format easily modable with Paint Shop Pro or other graphics software? Or will we need a special converter to turn the graphics into a usable format?

Many thanks!

[Tejszd]

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

Mods for earlier versions of CC will need a fair bit of re-working to use under PitF, for a variety of reasons.  It's a bit early to start discussing all the details of how this will work, but there probably will not be a way to change the game scale of pixels / meter.  Rather we'll re-size old-style graphics where necessary when we load them.  In many cases the game can handle loading either old-style files (like a map BGM) automatically but there may be some loss in quality.

Changing the image size I would think would not be too hard but changing the coding I'm not sure how that would work??? It might be best to just double the old maps image and coding so they are at 10 pixels per meter which would be right in between the vehicle and soldier pixel per m size.

[SteveMcClaire]

You do not need to change the map coding.  Map elements are measured in meters so this scale is not changing at all.
 

[SteveMcClaire]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

In order to mod the game will traditional modding programs such as 5CC tool etc work or will there be new editing tools included? I think I asked this before but will the graphics files be in TGA format or will they be in a format easily modable with Paint Shop Pro or other graphics software? Or will we need a special converter to turn the graphics into a usable format?

Many thanks!

There will be a map editor and some new modding tools post-release. Exact details are TBA, but 5CC support is a fairly safe bet. The tools will extract game graphics are still in a TGA format, as before.

[GaryChildress]

Many thanks for the reply Steve. Sounds like exciting prospects ahead. [:)]

[davidss]

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

The internal scale of the game engine has been adjusted, so it is not just a visual change in the size of the vehicle graphics.  Where 30m used to be 150 pixels on the screen, it is now 240 pixels on the screen.  The data file would still say 50m, in the example you gave.

Hi,
What is the reason for this change?
If I understand correctly ... a map of 4800 pixels at 5 map pixels per meter equals 960 meters. If increased to 8 map pixels per meter ... then it equals 600 meters.
So, with the newer scale you are kind of zooming in ... but in doing so, also decreasing the distance a map is simulated (within the same pixel map size) compared to the previous scale.
On a 1600 x 900 screen, the maximum firing distance seen from a unit at screen's edge to the other screen border is about 320 meters with the TLD scale ... so I'm assuming that distance will be proportionally less using the new scale.
Is this correct, because being able to fire over long distances is an advantage CC has over other games.

david

[SteveMcClaire]

ORIGINAL: davidss
What is the reason for this change?

If I understand correctly ... a map of 4800 pixels at 5 map pixels per meter equals 960 meters. If increased to 8 map pixels per meter ... then it equals 600 meters.

So, with the newer scale you are kind of zooming in ... but in doing so, also decreasing the distance a map is simulated (within the same pixel map size) compared to the previous scale.
On a 1600 x 900 screen, the maximum firing distance seen from a unit at screen's edge to the other screen border is about 320 meters with the TLD scale ... so I'm assuming that distance will be proportionally less using the new scale.
Is this correct, because being able to fire over long distances is an advantage CC has over other games.

The short answer is, yes, that is correct. There are basically two factors in changing the game scale:

1) It allows us to bring all the game elements (terrain, soldiers, vehicles) to basically the same scale.

2) It allows for higher resolution and thus more detail on the terrain graphics, game effects, etc.

You're correct that the net effect is to 'zoom in', and you will be able to see somewhat less of the battle area on the screen without scrolling. This is the trade off for increasing the resolution in the CC engine, which doesn't have any practical way to 'free-zoom' to any arbitrary distance / resolution. But overall, with the higher screen resolutions available today, you can still see more of the battle area than when the game was originally released, and hopefully it will look a lot better.

[davidss]

Thanks for your reply Steve,
Like most things in life a trade off is involved
have a good day

[davidss]

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

The short answer is, yes, that is correct. There are basically two factors in changing the game scale:

1) It allows us to bring all the game elements (terrain, soldiers, vehicles) to basically the same scale.

I can think of one significant benefit of having vehicles and terrain the same scale, but I don't know if it's possible with the current vehicle path finding model ... that being: roads drawn in the correct proportion compared to buildings, and the correct (real world) road width in relation to the map and correct road width between buildings.
Is this possible?

The CC5 road width (compared to buildings) is something I've never liked.

[davidss]

some thoughts about CC's new scale relative to the real world.
not sure is this is done correctly but ...
right now on my computer screen (with TLD), I have a 320 meter distance from a unit firing from one side of the screen across to the other side without scrolling.
If I use the same screen with the new CC scale, I'd have 200 meters.

Now to a real world comparison: using the ruler tool in google earth ... I've zoomed in on Pegasus Bridge until I measure 200 meters across the screen. The distance above ground in 124 feet. This may provide a way to see how real world distances compare to CC.
I'll post the screen capture with a TLD image of the Pegasus map inset. Keep in mind that the CC image of Pegasus is in the old TLD scale
There is a Cromwell tank displayed near Pegasus Bridge, so I've also used the GJS Cromwell inside TLD for a direct comparison of vehicle size. They look nearly identical in size.And so does the building above the Cromwell.

So it seems that when using the new CC scale ...
1. vehicles should be the same size as GJS vehicles
2. buildings near the same size as they are now in TLD (maybe slightly smaller)
3. roads probably the same size as GJS maps?
notice the bridge in CC, it was made to this width in the Ground Tactics mod so vehicles could get across ... so the width of this CC bridge is about as narrow as can be for vehicles to pass. It's width is slightly less than the other main roads of the CC map.
The google earth map shows the bridge to be wider than the CC version, but other roads in the image are not as wide as the bridge.

With the new CC scale, GJS vehicle size, and similar to GJS map roads ... it seems possible to accurately simulate real world map distances in a CC map ... combined with proportionally correct vehicle and buildings (terrain) sizes.
In my opinion, that would be a quite an accomplishment for a computer game.

A person making a CC map could zoom to 124 feet altitude in google earth, set north up, capture images of a battle field area ... then stitch the images together and use it for a background. Next draw over the background using it as a template and with historical photos and maps to correct for historical differences. When finished, you would have a near exact real world scale map of the battlefield.

[SteveMcClaire]

ORIGINAL: davidss

I can think of one significant benefit of having vehicles and terrain the same scale, but I don't know if it's possible with the current vehicle path finding model ... that being: roads drawn in the correct proportion compared to buildings, and the correct (real world) road width in relation to the map and correct road width between buildings.
Is this possible?

The CC5 road width (compared to buildings) is something I've never liked.

You'll still probably need to fudge some spots where the road is wider than in reality so that it can line up better with CC's terrain grid. This doesn't always have to be done visually (by making the road on the BGM wider) though -- often you can get away with having the terrain coding different than the image along the edges of a road. You could even add a 'road shoulder' element to the terrain file, code it like a road, and then use that to border your actual paved / dirt road to make it less obvious.

As for drawing the maps to real scale, yes you can do that. But CC's terrain grid is still there, and the underlying terrain coding may still require some tweaks to the visual layout. Bridges are an especially difficult case, and really only work well if they are 1) quite wide or, 2) lined up well to the CC terrain grid. There's not much that can be done about that without completely changing the terrain representation in the game (short of letting vehicles hang off the bridge I guess).

Steve

[davidss]

yes, I understand ... when bridges/roads are angled away from horizontal or vertical, vehicles seem to bounce back and forth off the edges. I guess that's a built in cc problem, but making it wider helps. Good idea too about having a different element for road shoulders (and side walks), but with the same code characteristics as road / paved.

With the new scale though, I think it would be easier to make real scale maps

attached is a google earth 124 ft altitude of a section of Bayeux and a CC version ... CC roads/buildings are a little bigger, but close. Like you say though some areas with curves or sharp angles might be a problem if done to real scale.

interesting stuff anyway ... and thanks

[DeLorian]

Sorry for bad English.

There will be time accelerator (2x, 4x etc)?

Lack of possibility to rewind and accelerate time during the game was a strong shortcoming disadvantage and discomfort.

2 or 3 minutes awaiting enemy tanks surely will be better in 4x or 8x time speed.

This feature is present in Total War series, in Imperial Glory (in patch) and many other strategic game.

For me it is main change, that must be in next Close Combat.