War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

[AcePylut]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

3/3/42

North America: The KB tried to sneak around and raid the channel far south of San Diego. My plane-less carriers are down there, but will slide off map and take refuge at Balboa. In harm's way is the TF carrying the figher squadrons from Pearl to West Coast. I think this TF can win the race to map's edge. I'm leaning towards moving her to Balboa, then sending the planes to East Coast,then back to West Coast.

I would strongly advise against using the map edge as some magical "you can't get me" border. If your ships are being chased by the KB then suffer the losses.... don't cheese the map edges to make your units magically stay alive.

[JohnDillworth]

Another Betty raid against Calgary does some manpower damage and starts some fires, but all looks "repaired" now.

Hope these gals are OK. Elevator operators at the Eaton, 1942. Hope the fires weren't cows being barbecued on the hoof.

Yikes! Nice snapshot. Sometimes in these small towns you get get some "inter-mingling" Looks like there are at least a couple of "cousins" here.

[khyberbill]

What if the KB is using the map edge to "herd" the ships? And also I would like to point out that every Japanese player I have played against has used the map edge to position subs to catch ships coming "on" the map from Balboa or Abadan-the exact hex they appear. Not once have I heard a complaint regarding this use of the map edge.

[Canoerebel]

I think Acepylut's comment was a quick off-the-cuff comment - a visceral reaction without knowing all the ins and outs of what's going on here.

My TFs would be steaming much further east if there was room to do so. Also, committing ships to the Balboa Channel is a two-fold risk. First, they can't turn around, so it takes them "out of commission" for several weeks or longer.

Secondly, if I order a TF to move from Balboa to San Diego, I can't recall it. Therefore, it shows up eight days or so later no matter what the circumstances are. If the KB has steamed in to raid and is parked right there, tough cookies.

Morever, as khyberbill notes, Steve can and has parked subs right around the channel between SD and the Balboa Channel. This includes Glens, which I'm essentially powerless to stop from spying on my ships and ports. How realistic is that?

So the Panama Canal Zone is a tough thing to manage in the game. Full of some risks. For these reasons and others, I feel not the slightest compunction in using the Channel. I haven't done anything to hang my head over.

[AcePylut]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think Acepylut's comment was a quick off-the-cuff comment - a visceral reaction without knowing all the ins and outs of what's going on here.

Totally. It sounded from your description that the KB was "coming" and you kinda were looking to "make it to the edge just in the nick of time" to escape losing the ships.

To avoid the channel you speak of, don't order your ships to go straight from Balboa to SD. Order them from Balboa to "parts beyond" (like Tokyo) and wait for them to enter the map, then re-route them. They wont show up in that 3-4 hex channel. That's what I've done to avoid that trap in that portion of the map. Of course, the decision is "do I want a couple days delay getting from Balboa to SD, or do I risk the run". Well for my important ships, I'm all fine on waiting for the delay, and if things are too thick, I can head to Pearl, Tahiti, etc. etc.

[erstad]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

What if the KB is using the map edge to "herd" the ships? And also I would like to point out that every Japanese player I have played against has used the map edge to position subs to catch ships coming "on" the map from Balboa or Abadan-the exact hex they appear. Not once have I heard a complaint regarding this use of the map edge.

Of course, there's no particular reason the Allied player has to use the same hex every time they enter the map. Positioning a sub on the most direct path from off map isn't all that different than "I'm going to put a sub directly between Palembang and Nagasaki" or "I'm going to put a sub directly between San Francisco and Pearl Harbor". You can choose to always take the shortest distance between two points but if an opponent assumes or infers that and acts accordingly, I'm not sure that's a problem.

[jeffk3510]

I don't see anything wrong with the play.

IF the map was the entire world, he woulnd't be able to corner you, AND he wouldnt be able to hover around an entry area.

[Cap Mandrake]

Also, the game engine does not model all the fine ASW assets at Tiajuana, Ensenada and Cabo San Lucas.

[zuluhour]

removed due to content southern gents just should'ent hear.[:D]

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

removed due to content southern gents just should'ent hear.[:D]

I knew you were going to get a PM. [:)]


How are things going? Is Alberta under the Rising Sun yet?

[Canoerebel]

3/5/42 and 3/6/42

I think we'll know very, very soon what Steve is up to. The picture is beginning to come into focus.

North America: The KB moved south again, then disappeared. I think she's moving north, but there's a chance she moved off to the waters between SoCal and Hawaii. I have nothing out there whatsoever. No enemy air raids recently. Alliford Bay is up to level five airfield and is crammed with aircraft.

Oz: 144th Regiment is landing at Port Moresby. Steve is just about in position to move on southwestern Oz or northeastern Oz or both if he's ever going to do so. I'm getting lots of SigInt about units prepping for Melbourne, but I consider that unlikely.

Indian Ocean: Wow, we picked up four solid reports of subs south of Cocos Island. Steve either knows my carriers are there or he strongly suspects it. Indeed, their right in the middle of the nest, so they'll move west. I might even place them south of Sabang in position to hit any enemy invasion force that might move for Langsa or Medan. Cocos Island has 260 AV now. That's good enough to stand for quite some time even against a large-scale commitment of troops. We have good info that three of the eight IJA divisions once at Clark Field are committed to DEI - 38th just took Koepang and SigInt reports 4th and Imperial Guards aboard marus bound for Batavia. These could be going a variety of places, but they aren't going to North America. A sub took out a troop-carrying xAK in a huge enemy transport convoy in the South China Sea. I suspect this TF is moving for western Sumatra. Hence my decision to move my carriers. If the enemy moves in a big way on Oz, the Allies will move to reinforce Sumatra. If the enemy moves in a big way towards western Sumatra (or India, which I consider just about out of the question now), I'll figure out where I go from there.

China: 59th Division is way, way, way out west and is having trouble handling the relatively weak Chinese garrison at Hami. That's a huge commitment of enemy troops in the middle of nowhere. We now know of at least four IJA divisions north or northwest of Lanchow. Obviously this is an all-out effort.

[Canoerebel]

Steve dropped a tiny para fragment (three squads) on Port Blair. Thus he gets complete information as to what I have there and the actual AV. That's just flat lame.

[Canoerebel]

3/7/42

North America: Very quiet except a big Zero sweep over Coal Harbor. No sign of the KB.

Oz: 144th Regiment shock attacks and fails at Port Moresby. Steve will probably have to bring more, which will slow him just a bit. Several TFs moving southest from Timor towards Exmouth or Port Headland vicinity. Not sure whether carriers are present. Surface combat ships will respond, includng CA Australia, to sniff things out.

Indian Ocean: Wow, yet more subs south of Cocos Island. There are at least six and probably many more as it looks like Steve has a solid line placed to detect any moves I might make. My carriers will have to cross this line, but so be it. Another Clark Field divisions (38th) reported on a maru bound for Batavia. Also, we were able to build on the SigInt report yesterday that part of 4th Div. was aboard Panama Maru bound for Batavia. Today a sub tangled with the massive transport TF in the Suoth China Sea and Panama Maru is included. This TF is bearing SE on a heading for Batavia. There's no reason to bring these guys this way if they are heading for Oz. They could've just slid down past Timor instead. So likely destinations are Cocos Island, western Sumatra, west towards India, or very unlikely to mop up resistance in Java (that would be using dynamite to kill flies). Could Steve be looking toward India after all this? That would be a surprise, but it would also be at long odds since the Allies have been preparing for such a move all along. Perth would be his best move, I think. Cocos Island, Sabang or Port Blair would be a huge commitment for a slow and relatively small return. So Perth makes the most sense to me.

China: Three IJA divisions crossed a river and shock attacked three Chinese units in the forest east (true) of Ankang. The Chinese held, which was a huge victory. Two more Chinese units are crossing the forest from Sian to Ankang and need about six days to complete the journey. At that point Steve will need significant reinforcements to prevail along that vector. Four divisions are across the river from Hengyang, but my biggest worry is that they will assault the agricultural hex to the south. In that strength, they would sever the railroad between Hengyang and Kweilin. I'm in decent position to counter the threat, but any four-division crossing by good IJA divisions is a threat. Steve has alot of divisions spread out across China, so this is clearly a major emphasis for him. Thus far the Chinese have really done well, but the stakes are high.

Port Blair: His use of paratroops in tiny numbers really bugs me.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Steve dropped a tiny para fragment (three squads) on Port Blair. Thus he gets complete information as to what I have there and the actual AV. That's just flat lame.

typical and well known... [8|]

[Canoerebel]

I've found Steve gracious and thoughtful in this game. We have no house rules, but when something comes up we discuss it and figure out a mutually agreeable way to handle it. I don't like this particular tactic, but I'm sure we'll handle it the same way. I'm lucky to have an opponent of his caliber, in every way.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've found Steve gracious and thoughtful in this game. We have no house rules, but when something comes up we discuss it and figure out a mutually agreeable way to handle it. I don't like this particular tactic, but I'm sure we'll handle it the same way. I'm lucky to have an opponent of his caliber, in every way.

well, hopefully you can sort these things out, others haven't been and mini para drops won't be the only thing you will find strange (hopefully not) in the course of the game

[Cap Mandrake]

A mini para drop might well be considered kosher if the attacker had limited intel on the target and might plausibly have concluded that it was ungarrisoned or even had no combat troops.

After all, the historical attack on Palembang was a small force.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Steve dropped a tiny para fragment (three squads) on Port Blair. Thus he gets complete information as to what I have there and the actual AV. That's just flat lame.

typical and well known... [8|]

[:D]
And he complained about me putting the PH ships into TFs to avoid them getting hit on a second strike...
Just hillarious! [:D]

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've found Steve gracious and thoughtful in this game. We have no house rules, but when something comes up we discuss it and figure out a mutually agreeable way to handle it. I don't like this particular tactic, but I'm sure we'll handle it the same way. I'm lucky to have an opponent of his caliber, in every way.

I am playing PanzerJ Hortlund in a game as Japan, and I haven't seen anything I would consider an exploit. He knows the engine very well, so will do stuff like park a low-value TF in a hex with LR CAP over it to draw in your bombers, rather than CAP the base (as CAP can be swept, LRCAP cannot), but I consider this tactic within bounds.

Para Fragments for purposes of recon or odds lowering is, however, crossing the line IMO, and is definitely gamey. I would address that.

PS: Historiker, was that really an issue, forming TFs at PH on day 2? I can't imagine anyone would even complain about that. Why was that an issue? The only thing I can think of is that IJN player may set airgroups to "Nav Attack/Port Attack"; Allied player can form TFs of low-value ships, which means the airgroups will attack those as Nav Attack has priority, and ignore the BBs in port. Other than that, I can't think of what the problem is.....

RE: CHINA: That attack vector is interesting, and you can see what he is trying to do: Cut you off from all the fuel. This is a major problem for you; if he reaches Lanchow, I think he'll stop OIL and RESOURCE production, even if he doesn't take it. This will eventually stop Fuel production, which will eventually stop HI production which will put a crimp on your supplies. He also gets that stack of 30 units closer to Chengtu/Chungking, which if he gets in that plain it's the end of Chinese supply production.

Maybe you can get a couple units around his rear and interdict those super-long supply lines?

[Historiker]

PS: Historiker, was that really an issue, forming TFs at PH on day 2? I can't imagine anyone would even complain about that. Why was that an issue? The only thing I can think of is that IJN player may set airgroups to "Nav Attack/Port Attack"; Allied player can form TFs of low-value ships, which means the airgroups will attack those as Nav Attack has priority, and ignore the BBs in port. Other than that, I can't think of what the problem is.....

It was.
I also sunk a Jap CVL on turn two with Force Z off Kuching. There, he said I misued the intel I gained from this AAR here. He knew that I'm reading it, I asked him whether that is ok and whether it was ok to read his AAR against Canoe as well. He said: "It is fine"

I spotted a TF off Kuching on turn 1, so I sent in Force Z to intercept. I saw nothing wrong there, as he never said "I am going to do EXACTLY what I do in the other game" - and even if he had, am I supposed to retreat Force Z wich I always use offensively?

He then accued me to exploit the game by preventing my ships getting sunk on turn 2 in PH and wasn't happy about Kuching. When I explained, he said "you are getting defensive"...

Well, I decided it was best to end it there.