War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

[artuitus_slith]

Personally I wouldn't be too angry about this, consider them commandos. And then when you are ready to go on the offensive use small fragements from your subs to scout islands in enemy hands-turn about is fair play after all. And the game doesnt model commandos or sub recon currently (often in the course of a patrol a sub would be sent to take pictures of an enemy held island/port ect), so this is one solution. Best way to proceed would be to discuss it with your opponent and work out an agreement, but I for one would let it slide and use it against him as well.

regards;
Gmoney

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

A mini para drop might well be considered kosher if the attacker had limited intel on the target and might plausibly have concluded that it was ungarrisoned or even had no combat troops.

After all, the historical attack on Palembang was a small force.

As in this case considering that 3 squads wouldnt take the island from the original garrison, well i'd consider this highly unlikely. Whether he has or not reconned the island i have no knowledge of.
Also while i think u have a point Cap, i'd say there are potential problems in that approche. The ultimate consequence of ur line of thot, not to say its the case here. Is that it doesnt pay to recon. Via recon u can only gather X much information. If u dont recon u can at leased to one self justify small para drops as a result of "the attacker had limited intel on the target and might plausibly have concluded that it was ungarrisoned or even had no combat troops." Gaining much more information.

Then you are in my opinion walking a very thin line of what is kosher or not. Making the IMHO military fact that reccing is a near military necesity before attacking and its a flaw attacking with out trying to gather as much info as possible on the enemy. Not that it always happens in real life and u can find exceptions where teh opposite might even be true. In games even more so cuz of the hindsight factor and the fact we all know alot of what is on the other side.

U could ofc argue that the mini para drop is reccing but then the whole validity of the original arguement is invalid.
To me this is sub invasions all over again, just in another from, with the reservation that i dont necesarily know all the facts nor Steve's thinking.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Historiker]

Simple thing Canoe:

Don't complain about it - remember it!

You'll have enough invasions ahead that could use a little sub invasion recon... [8D]

[princep01]

Canoe, I am not of the "Don't get mad, get even" persuasion when it comes to a game.  I am much more inclined to just discuss the issue with opponents and reach an agreement.  Failing that, then some of the sub recon, para pay back solution could be used.  However, continuing a festering problem is not how I would approach this and, based on your previous comments, I know you are not of that ilk either.
 
It's all in good sport and for fun.....I'm sure this can be worked out if it needs to be worked out.
 
However, saying that and as noted above, I would say that the Japanese did us small paradrops in Sumatra and, in particular, around Palembang.  I do not rememeber the exact force size that was dropped (recollection was it was a battalion size drop).  Commandos and rangers were frequently dropped in small drops for recon on comms purposes.  Also, are we actually sure that paradrops do reduce the defensive value of the defenders?  There has been discussion stating both yes and no in the forums.  I think it once did that, but that later patches removed that affect.
 
Anyway, I am certain that players of goodwill such as yourself, can easily settle on a solution.  Good luck with that.  This is an interesting game, so I trust you guys can resolve it.

[Cap Mandrake]

Good point Princep. He could send Congressman Weiner style photos of himself via email instead of the game file.

That would probably be really annoying.[:)]

Considering the one-way mission of mini-subs and the later use of Kamikazes, it seems not a stretch for the IJA to drop 50 men with radios. Of course, then, like Walloc noted, it is purely recce in nature.

[princep01]

LOL, Cap.  As usual a fitting reply.  However, Mr Weiner's, the most aptly named Congress-geek in history. photo would undoubtly start some of the most interesting replies seen in the Forum in awhile.  Still laughing at the thought:). 

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Good point Princep. He could send Congressman Weiner style photos of himself via email instead of the game file.

<Makes u think of what might be in store for those reading a certain AAR, and a certain some ones liking of assorted pictures>

Considering the one-way mission of mini-subs and the later use of Kamikazes, it seems not a stretch for the IJA to drop 50 men with radios. Of course, then, like Walloc noted, it is purely recce in nature.

I dont think. That any one thinks, that this is in any way is a stretch of what is possible to do. Problem, if deemed a problem, comes in the form that those 50 men in this particular situasion gives a "100%" accurate OOB, AV str of units, full disclosesure of forts levels and so on. Normal recon doesnt do that. Hench the whole sub invasion debate in witp.
I fully agree with others that i would talk this over with Steve. No reason get mad at all. Either u find a solution or its just that the gloves are off doing the same back later on. Its only if that then become a problem later on that any thing needs to become "problematic".

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[MAurelius]

I know some people see issues with this - but I personally see a lot more problems with deliberately exploiting something like leaky cap or LRCAP over TFs to get bombers killed - as there is no way to interfere with their target-selection- things which are simply game-engine related - than some form of "recon".... using paratroopers for that - there is no other way in game to get something like really close intel - no spies etc... so I believe this to be a lesser issue than others...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

A mini para drop might well be considered kosher if the attacker had limited intel on the target and might plausibly have concluded that it was ungarrisoned or even had no combat troops.

After all, the historical attack on Palembang was a small force.

3 squads = how many soldiers? Why not sending John Rambo alone?

[Canoerebel]

3/8/42

North America: KB (or part thereof) shows up just SW of San Diego. IJN strike aircraft sink two YP at a cost of a few Vals downed by leaky CAP from Los Angeles. Steve's carriers have been off the West Coast for weeks now flying a multitude of small missions against the occasional YP, xAK and DD. He's got to be low on sorties, or possibly he's rotating in successive carrier patrols. I'll have to shift a few fighters south from San Fran/Portland to beef up protection of LA and SD.

Oz: Enemy combat TF with trailing troop transport TF nearing Port Hedland. The Allies have a five-DD TF parked there with two more TFs enroute from Perth, but probably not arriving until the day after tomorrow. No obvious signs of enemy carriers.

Indian Ocean: Massive number of enemy subs west of Cocos Island. Undboutedly, Steve is following their detection level readings to figure out whether I have carriers present and where, plus the chance of a strike and the trip-wire effect. Steve may be mounting an all-out effort for Cocos Island (or, much less likely, towards India). I can't stop an all-out effort vs. Cocos, but forcing Steve to mount a maximum effort is in itself a victory of sorts. Cocos has 271 AV behind nearly two forts with an Indian CD unit present. It's not a freebie.

India: I will know within ten days whether or not Steve has grand plans for India. If he doesn't, the Allies can begin shifting forward troops. I've already changed the two Marine regiments at Karachi to strat mode. They'll move forward to the Burma frontier if Steve isn't coming for India. I have two USA RCT in Capetown. They're ready to come to India (or possibly Sumatra), though I only have enough PP to buy one of them at the moment.

China: I don't think I can realistically expect to stop Steve from laying siege to Lanchow and thus stopping production. I will, of course, try to interdict his long, tenuous supply line. The main thing I will concentrate on doing is establishing strong redoubts and Lanchow and, if necessary, the bases to the east to prevent an enemy breakthrough that would threaten Chungking. Right now, I think the Chinese have performed well. There is a chance that Steve can overwhelm with numbers, but I think we can drag things out a long time. I have 2,000 Chinese AV at Lanchow with some good terrain to work with. I have something like 3,000 to 4,000 AV around the Nanyang/Ankang/Sian sector to draw on for reinforcement using interior lines. If Steve were to get stymied way out around Lanchow it would take him weeks or months to recalibrate his forces and get them somewhere else.

Para Fragments: Steve and I have discussed this at length. Bottom line is that we have mutually agreed not to use tiny fragments of paras or sub-born infantry to engage purely in reonnaissance missions. I explained to Steve that my defination of "lame-gamey play", which I am just now trying to define in my own mind, is two-fold: (1) is the move wildly unrealistic and/or does it offer a side a unrealistic result; and (2) is there an effective counter to the move. If a move is wildly unrealistic (such as providing complete garrison/AV/fort information by para-fragment assault) and if there is no way to counter the move, it's suspect.

That's why I don't have a problem with the use of picket ships. It provides a reasonable amount of knowledge not otherwise obtainable though it should have been historically and my opponent can counter the use of pickets. However, I have come to rely more and more on patroling ships (DDs, small ASW TFs, small minelayer TFs) as opposed to merchants. I still employ the latter, but lean more towards the former. There is no freaking way Japan could have used massed carriers just off the West Coast in March 1942 without the Allies knowing about it; but in this game it's totally possible unless I post picket ships.

[Cap Mandrake]

Nice, succinct, and I might add, lawyerly summary of "lame-gamey play". That is quite a sound two step test.


One question on "sub-born infantry". Does that mean they were actually delivered on the boat (likely a rare event) or does it also include future infantrymen whose father served on a sub? Also, could you comment on whether they could run for President if they were "sub-born"?

[SqzMyLemon]

How much air power has Japan committed to China? You'll probably make China a real grind for him if he's not bludgeoning your troops with air attacks and causing massive disruption and inherent supply loss.

[Canoerebel]

Japan has employed a steady bombing campaign in China, primarily to hit the stack of Chinese troops at Nanyang (ineffectively, IMO) and to keep down base building at Changsha, Hengyang, Kweilin, etc. Some of this is "disinformation," I think, but he's kept up the pressure for a long time.

Steve and I have already discussed the use of strategic bombing in China. I suggested it was possibly a game-breaker in the sense that the Chinese cannot defend against it, it will eradicate supply, and it wasn't really possible in the real war (Japan didn't have unilateral bombing ability and the Allies would have, if necessary, incrased fighter support, but fighter support in the game isn't really possible in China due to lack of supply at bases). Steve said he'd take this under advisement. That was two or three weeks ago and it hasn't come up again.

As for CapMandrake's questions, "sub-born infantrymen" have something to do with Operation Petticoat, I think. Sheriff Joe wants to arm all USN sub-born infantrymen and post them off Tijiuana.

[Canoerebel]

3/09/42

North America: The KB moves closer to LA and San Diego but flies no strike missions. Marauders from March Field sortie ineffectively, escorted by some Wildcats, but report sightings of Akagi and Ryujo. This is signficiant, becuase I just don't think can mount a campaign for India absent the KB, and anything across the Australian LOD isn't likely any time soon because he couldn't impose a blockade to stop the Allies from bringing in reinforcements. So I think the Allies can afford to fight further forward.

Indian Ocean: Allied carriers continue to avoid direct encounters with the host of IJN subs near Cocos Island, but I'm sure Steve has derived some helpful intel by "flooding the zone." The carriers are further west now. It will take at least a day or maybe two before they could rally to support Cocos. Formidable is in theate now, over near Diego Garcia, though she's await some escorts before moving further forward. Yesteday, I bought one of the USA RCTs at Capetown. This unit will report to Bombay, though she might be diverted before reaching that port.

China: The Chinese are moving in good order to meet the various and serious threats outlined in the post for March 7.

The Date: March 7 is a significant day in my AE experience because that's when Q-Ball came ashore at Ceylon, the first step in a massive invasion of India. With time on the side of the Allies, the further we go into a game, the harder it is for Japan to prevail in a massive move that has potential auto-victory implications. I felt like Q-Ball did a great job to launch an Indian invasion that early in the game on such a scale. Since then, I've always used that date as kind of a benchmark to see where I am and where the enemy is. Steve's obviously advanced far in NoPac, but I doubt he plans to come farther (except likely moves on Coal Harbor and Prince Rupert and perhaps Victoria). I think that's a dead end for him now.

[Canoerebel]

03/10/42

A pretty good turn for the Allies with some big action coming, me thinks.

North America: The KB stood offshore and hit the oil fields at Bakersfield. The Allied CAP leaked over from Los Angelese and did a good job, downing quite a few Zeros and Kates. The Allies lost 19 oil points. Steve's CAP isn't all that impressive, so he'd better not get too close to San Francicso. No air raids over Canada or the northwest USA.

Oz: The Japanese TFs retired before reaching Port Headland and the Japanese haven't been able to take Port Moresby yet.

Cocos Island: A long chain of Japanese TFs inbound including an advance TF of APDs and other fast transports. CA Dorsetshire with four DDS is close by and will cover Cocos tomorrow. The carriers are going to move half way east and could cover the base day after tomorrow. It looks like Steve's "big guns" (BBs, major transport fleets) are back near the Sunda Straights. I am not detecting any sign of carriers. Forts at Cocos just went to level two with 271 AV.

India: A new Indian division arrived at Madras and will report immediately to Chittagong. The Allies are very close now to moving to occupy that base plus Cox's Bazaar and Akyab in strength.

China: Another failed IJ shock attack in the woods east of Ankang, plus an IJ division attacked, failed, and is very weak way out at Hami in the northwest. The big move is coming for Lanchow, but I think the Chinese are doing good in getting reinforcements positioned to contest the enemy offensive. Overall I think the Chinese are doing very, very well. But the big and critical contests are soon to come and I'm still not certain just how much Japan is bringing to Lanchow.

[Cap Mandrake]

"AIR RAID BAKERSFIELD STOP THIS IS NOT A DRILL"


Doesn't quite have the same impact, does it?

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

"AIR RAID BAKERSFIELD STOP THIS IS NOT A DRILL"


Doesn't quite have the same impact, does it?

Is that a direct crib from the movie "1942"??[:)]

[crsutton]

Can't believe he would waste his time hitting your oil. What could he possibly be thinking? I doubt that even the complete destruction of any west coats oil facilities would put a dent in the Allied fuel supply. He is wasting valuable KB pilots on something that will not gain him anything and can be quickly rebuilt once he leaves the area. Got me scratching my head here.

[Andav]

He does get stratigic bombing points for the oilfields I guess. I am not saying it is woth KB pilots but it is a reason to bomb them ... I guess ...

Wa

[Alfred]

I keep reading people saying that PH is just wasting his time on these NoPac operations. You just don't understand what is the purpose. PH is doing more than fine with his NoPac operations. In fact the ROI is very good.

There is zero slack in oil capacity in North America. Every single oil centre damaged results in a commensurate reduction in fuel production. That in turn results in less Heavy Industry output. Reduce Heavy Industry output sufficiently and you actually impact on the production of American aircraft production. Reduce fuel production sufficently and you impact on the capacity to send fuel to Australia.

Canoerebel isn't providing the exact figures but to date there is no evidence that PH is actually suffering unsustainable aircraft losses. More significantly you have no idea whether PH has replaced his elite pilots with cannon fodder.

Frankly whilst I think PH has made some relatively minor tactical errors, what I see is Japan completely outplaying the Allies strategically.

Alfred