Is it possible for German player to match historical German performance?

[sandman2575]

Guess the thread title says it all. I am wondering what folks think about this.

In my current full Case Blue campaign, playing as Germany against "Normal" Soviet AI, I am struggling to see how it is possible for the player to match how the Germans did in real life. I consider myself a reasonably competent player, having spent lots of time with Warsaw to Paris, but recognizing pretty quickly that the Soviets are a much harder opponent than anything faced in the previous DC game. I've achieved several modest-sized encirclements and have driven 'cautiously aggressively' (if that makes sense) toward Voronezh, Rostov, Millerowo etc. But it's now July 26, and I am by no means on the brink of taking Rostov, which is protected by a steel curtain of tank corps, arty, AT guns etc. etc., although I am rushing 11th Army elements as fast as possible to help out. I've been at the gates of Voronezh for a few turns but despite some gambles have not been able to break through. My best progress has been with XIV Corps, taking Vorosilovgrad, but 1st Panzer Army is by no means on the verge of a breakthrough, as I can already see Russian hordes assembling to block any thrust toward the Don.

On one hand, I'm of course pleased to see such a tough AI opponent. On the other hand, the Soviets do seem to be somewhat overpowered -- in how the AI uses them, if not in historical numbers -- than compared to real life.

...thoughts?

[elmo3]

The Soviet AI on Normal has been kicking my butt. I'm guessing (hoping [:)]) the game is more historical with the AI on Easy.

[jjdenver]

I'd have to check to be sure but I think the AI gets a bonus on "normal" setting. That's probably why you are having problems. I think it's a 25% combat bonus and a few other things which seems pretty significant.

[olivier34]

AI on easy gets nothing but here is the bonus on a normal setting. Not bad at all ! I prefer to play a human opponent...[;)]

[oldspec4]

My two cents..I'm playing full campaign on easy and giving the Russian AI more time.

Currently in round 28 and have pocketed large numbers of Russians. Russian casualties around 680k and Germans about 112k. Have not used the cards too much because of my success so far.

I'm probably an average to below average player w/ WtP experience.

[Flaviusx]

Soviets are pretty tough in this game.

If Case Blue as the Germans is frustrating you...fire up Uranus and play as the Soviets! You'll crush the AI.

[Rosseau]

Yep, more about balance than the AI. Has anyone won an MP game as German in Drive on Voronezh?

[Pawsy]

I am doing ok against the AI. Once you can break out and start pocket significant units you find your advance quickening. You must drive your panzer Divs forward. If mine are blocked I pull them back and try else where. Its 18 July and last week I was given Stalingrad as an objective. Rostov is hard to I have bypassed it and going for Stalingrad! I have attached my southern Pz Divs to Manstein 11th Army. The obvious choice really to lead the attack

Nortmal AI

I tried a amphibious attack to see what would happen and I lost all my cargo and barges. Got troops ashore so I have drawn a large number of his troops away. Good to see how it would work and will try it again with the 11th Army.

[sandman2575]

Okay -- WOW Oldspec. that is some dominating game you've put together! Impressive.

I'm playing on Normal with Full Time for the AI (which is vastly improved from WtP, where Full Time AI, esp. on Fall Gelb, could mean AI turns lasting near 45 minutes.... Vic has definitely streamlined AI time in Case Blue).

I'm not trying to suggest that the Soviet AI is overpowered from a standpoint of OOB, rather, that it puts up a more rugged, coordinated defense in summer '42 than the "real life" Soviet army was able to.

***By the way, how are folks taking screenshots? Fraps does not seem to work with Case Blue -- ??

[Grotius]

I'm using FRAPS for screenshots, Sandman. It's working fine for me. I think the FPS indicator does not show up on the screen, but I still get good screenshots. Maybe it helps to put FRAPS into "Monitor Aero Desktop" mode?

I'm liking the AI a lot in this game. It does a lot of good things, and it even surprises me sometimes. I gather some scenarios have been tweaked to give us humans more of a challenge, and of course the AI gets bonuses on Normal. I'm cool with all that.

[oldspec4]

For screenshots I still use "print screen" on keyboard and then paste into paint (and usually save as a jpeg).

[sandman2575]

I was premature -- I'm on turn July 16 -- anyway, as you can see, the Soviet AI is solidly defending the entire front from Voronezh to Rostov... prospects of my breaking through with 1st / 4th Panzer Armies still seem slim --

**thanks for the screenshot tips --

[Vic]

The problem with the Soviet AI is that it always chose defending almost all territory. A human player would chose to fallback for the first month or two before making a stand and not giving any ground anymore (absorbing upt 300-400k extra troops), the AI does not. And this is a very risky strategy for the AI. Yeah if the AI holds the German player fails, but if the AI breaks it will be in a terrible position and probably not be able to make a stand further to the east and south anymore.

The AI misses the very long picture view... its an AI... lets be fair. But it is something i would like to improve upon if I get around to a DC3 game and backport to DC2.

It might also be interesting for a modder to see if you could fool the Soviet AI into retreating at the start by modifying some rulevars for the Soviet AI in the initial month or so (rulevar 943 would be the ideal choice to fool around with). Either making it retreat a full month or maybe letting it hold for a week... retreat for a week.. hold for a week.. I am not sure.. But there is defenitely potential here for modding creating some better AI behaviour in a strategic sense for a specific scenario. Also the rulevars dictating how and if it uses reserves in depth could be interesting to change to different values in different phases of the game.

best,
Vic

[Redmarkus5]

I am about to re-start Case Blue on Easy. On Normal I created several pockets and made a number of breakthroughs but, man, the Soviet AI fought like a trapped animal. It cut off my spearheads, counter attacked to free trapped troops and filled every gap I could make in the line. I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

This is a compliment, not a complaint! Although Vic says it doesn't play as a human would, it almost feels like playing a human to me...

[sandman2575]

Thanks for the explanation, Vic. Just to second redmarkus, my reason in starting the thread was not to voice a criticism, but to see how other German players were faring. I'm happy to see such a robust AI of course! In some ways the Soviet AI plays a counterfactual scenario, "What if the Russian army had responded aggressively, free of Stalin's interference, at the start of Case Blue?" It's a gamble, but so far in my game, it seems to be working!

[Keunert]

i am running a second case blue full campaign against a soviet ai on normal and slow: the soviets are pretty much beaten on mid july. rostow will not be taken on time but Voronesh is taken long ago and the soviets no longer have a front line. like Vic posted: once you get the hang the AI is too weak on astrategical level.

this will be the time to switch to pbem. thats the best part of such games anyway.

[Redmarkus5]

Case Blue Turn 2 (on EASY).

Breakthroughs and pockets - concentration of force is essential. I don't attack everywhere, just at selected breakthrough points. Once the dug in Soviet units start to pull back to avoid pocketing and their entrenchment score falls to zero, then I attack them with my intermediate infantry units and air strikes.

Also, I launch air strikes with only JG and ZG units on Soviet airfields. This does a lot of damage to Soviet fighter strength and makes my later attacks more effective.