Board games v Computer games

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:29 am

Changed my moniker, and as a means to earning it hehe, I have to insert this...

Lots of people buy lots of computer games or console games which cost equally as much as most board games. They play them intensely for a few weeks or even a couple of months if need be in order to "beat the game".
Then the game is "finished".

All things considered, I see little difference between maybe playing a board game 10 times in 5 years, or an electronic game intensely for 2 months and then never again.

Both approaches are going to seem odd to someone eventually.

It will be a very cold day in hell, that anyone sells me anything at all costing 50 - 100 bucks, that is only essentially fun for 2 months. Especially when some games can be made to be fun indefinitely.

This explains why all my board games and the computer games I like, fall into the category, "no fixed storyline".

I have once upon a time owned a Nintendo (the original beast eh). I bought a few cartridges (back before rental existed).
But I was dumb and follish then as well (not to mention working and having more money than sense).

I don't mind that I don't own a game console machine. All the games made for these toys, are largely fixed storyline doodads.
They entertain kids, but likely will never satisfy a discerning gamer.

Maybe in 50 years, the entertainment industry will have something new for the current youngun generation to resist, who knows.

If wargaming dies 20 years after I am dead, I will hardly be able to care.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:10 am

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Lots of people buy lots of computer games or console games which cost equally as much as most board games. They play them intensely for a few weeks or even a couple of months if need be in order to "beat the game".

Was just pointing out that many so-called "Board Game" sales are from people who have 0 intention of ever playing the game they bought at all. Not so many people tend to do that with Computer Games. Thus many board game sales can be attributed to people who don't even play the game, whereas anyone buying a computer game probably intends to at least play it for a little while if not longer.

People spend $18 for two to go to a movie that they get to see one time only and that's it... so a game that takes a couple weeks or months and is $35-$40 really isn't much different even if you never touch it again.

I don't see that fact as any much different boardgame versus computer. Many play both years later, many don't play either.

Lots of my old computer games sit around while I look at them and say "Gee I should load that one up and play it again sometime"... Yet I like most, don't often if ever do it as there are plenty of newer titles out to try...

Part of it, I suppose, really comes down to money.. For some, its easier to drop $30-$40 on a game just to try something new, have some fun, and move on... Still playing other recent titles of enjoyment along the way. Others have to pick and choose their games very carefully as they cannot or do not choose to buy many.

And if you REALLY look at boardgames.. And I mean REALLY...You'll notice they advanced in many many ways from each decade to the next.. Much like computer games do on a shorter interval.. This same advancement in boardgames made a lot of the oldest titles alot more undesirable to play in favor of newer "prettier", "more-complex", "better documented", "better designed" boardgames and so on.. As more time passes, computer wargames will in nearly all ways if not all ways exceed board wargames for these very same reasons..

Not anytime drastically soon, not soon enough that you should care, but soon none-the-less...

Brigz · Post by **Brigz** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:02 am

Veldor,

I don't understand anything you are saying. I play a board wargame once or twice a week on a regular basis. I know dozens of other people who play board wargames more often than I do. And they all live in the same city. Board wargames are being played all over the planet. Where you get off saying that nobody plays them, is beyond me.

Sure, I've got a large collection of board wargames and just about every one of them are good games, fun to play and interesting. And anytime I want, I can go in there and pick out a game I haven't played in years and set it up and either play it solitare, have someone play against me, or just study it. It's much like reading a history book.

I like playing both computer and board wargames. They are very similar and at the same time very different. But I've found that because you have to do all the math and all the setting up and all the constant rule checking, that you learn a lot more playing a board wargame than you do playing a computer wargame.

Not gettin down on you, man, but I just don't get your apparent animosity toward board wargames. Why would you even think that one is superior to the other?

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:48 am

Hmm now I think I have to reign in my pitbull Dave heheh.

I don't think he was being that negative actually Dave (or at least I didn't see it).

But to take "buy it and do nothing with it" to a new level. I buy models I have very limited faith I will build "soon".

I buy books because they look good n the shelf it seems.

I collect internet girl friends but you can bet I use them heheh.

Let's see I collect war movies that I don't watch repeatedly. And documentaries which don't get worn out fast.

You should see my anime collection, especially my computer graphics collection (well actually maybe I won't show you that heeh).

I collect power tools too eh guys (just in case you think I am wierd after the anime comment). Don't get to use them enough.

So it's not entirely odd that some collect board game wargames really, whether they use all of them or not eh.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:03 am

Originally posted by Dave Briggs
Where you get off saying that nobody plays them, is beyond me.

Exactly when did I state that? I merely stated that if you look at board wargame sales vs computer wargame sales that it is often overlooked that a portion (however large/however small) of board wargame sales are by pure collectors, or by a combination player/collector. Often meaning the game is never played in those cases.

But I've found that because you have to do all the math and all the setting up and all the constant rule checking, that you learn a lot more playing a board wargame than you do playing a computer wargame.

That may be true for you, but I seriously doubt the average person plays games to learn things(unless its how to get better at a game). In fact, thats one of the main reasons some play computer versions. The game starts and ends in a single click. Would people play Uncommon Valor or Combat Leader if the game took an hour to load and a half hour to exit? Precious time can be more efficiently spent on the gameplay itself and in perfecting strategies.

I just don't get your apparent animosity toward board wargames.

Here again, exactly where did I pronounce my hatred for board wargames. In my neck of the world (which is admitably more technology savy than some areas) most boardgamers I knew or know have all but stopped. Sure many others continue on, but all I said was the ranks aren't being replenished with enough, if any, reinforcements. Never did I say I had anything against board games.

Why would you even think that one is superior to the other?

As is, neither is superior. However, there is more than enough technology to come that will add most, if not all, of the current advantages board games have to the advantages that computer games already have and new advantages to come. Once that happens, computer wargames will be superior. NO not now, maybe debatebly not even close yet, but soon enough they will be.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:15 am

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
So it's not entirely odd that some collect board game wargames really, whether they use all of them or not eh.

Never meant to imply it would be. I was refering to a "true" wargame collector, if you want to call it that. Which, despite whatever games he/she may have for playing purposes, has a usually much larger set of games simply as a "collection". That type of person exists and there are quite a bit of them, yet I highly doubt there are many out there who collect a large sum of computer games, but never play any of them.

It was meant as a simple fact really, not criticism. If that sort of person exists, than it accounts for an undetermined amount of board game sales that does not have a counterpart in the computer game world. Thats all.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:36 pm

But it WOULD be silly to say that boardgames are doing as well as they were doing 15 years ago tho. People do play boardgames, I do myself sometimes... but come on, things aren't like they used to be.

Tomo

Raverdave · Post by **Raverdave** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:38 pm

Ah yes.....Panzerblitz, t'was the first boardgame that I cut my teeth on. Fine game that one till the dog got to it, but by then I had moved on to Luftwaffe and then Squadleader. Les, if I may put words in your mouth, I would suggest that it is the "fellowship" that comes with boardgaming that enhances it's appeal (as well as the tactile enjoyment) over computer games?

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:28 pm

Well I must say, there are three areas of enjoyment that computers have intruded upon.

They provide an outlet, but they do NOT provide a replacement.

Porn, don't tell me you are having as much fun with your right hand and some net porn as you will with the real thing.

Rolegames, it's not the same on Everquest, as it is in your livingroom with some buddies rolling some dice and bitching about last dice roll costng your player characters life.

Computergames, sure you can play against the computer, but the thing I "like" about boardgames is "specifically" "seeing" how it was done.
Yes I actually DO use them to study history solo a lot.

Rolling the dice, praying to the dice gods for a specific number. Listening to politically INcorrect background ambience sound effects. Bitching over rules, hounding your buddy to get moving on his turn. Finding that one perfect move after reading a detailed narrative on the event and getting an insight.

Maybe I am odd, maybe the numbers people say aren't there, are merely not interested in making themselves known "here".

Yes I like porn (I am a very ordinary male). Yes I might like to play quasi adventure games (but it seems Heroes of Might and Magic is as far as I venture). And obviously I play computer wargames.

But anyone that says the real thing can be bettered on a computer, has clearly not been enjoying the real thing lately.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:32 pm

The 'real' thing is an inaccurate portrayal of boardgames vs. computer games. Sex is not a rigid set of rules on sheets of paper to be played on a board covered in hexes. The possibilities in a computer game vs. a boardgame look to be infinite. 5th Fleet was an awesome boardgame, but it would be better on a computer because all the die rolling and tedius proceedures can be made easier. When I say that I don't mean dumbed down, rather there is now room for a more sophisticated set of rules and behaviors. 5th Fleet is not about it's proceedure, it's about trying to make the player face challenges of a fleet commander in a certain period of time. The important part of these wargames is that I care where Diego Garcia is because of it's range relative to my strategic air assets that I need to use to make something go my way. Not because rolling dice is fun, or following rules is enriching. I'm a big fan of boardgames because of nostalgia and because a lot of good boardgames have no computer equivalent, those are the only reasons. Being face to face with people? I'd rather do a lot of things with friends than puzzle over a boardgame. Double blind may provide the fog of war but its a major hassle, and as if those games don't take a long time already. Computers aren't outlets, they are tools. Nothing in and of themselves, but potentially a good deal more. Porn and roleplaying games can be found through many channels, computers are only one of them and they are only so popular in the computer form because of convinience.

Tomo

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:38 pm

Sex is not a rigid system of rules on paper (hmmm well yes there are no hexes I recall, but is that significant)?

Hmm me thinks you don't get much tombstone:D

There are a LOT of "Rules" (ask any married guy).

But I suppose convenience is important to some. The convenience though really doesn't mean much to me.
I don't "like" rolling dice per se, as an action it really isn't awe inspiring, but it hardly bothers me.

Puzzling over the game with friends...I guess it depends on the friends. I have some good buddies that suck as gamers. So I don't game with them when I want to game.
My old wargaming buddy and I always added something to the game experience though. He acted out the pationate Nazi while I was intent on sweeping the world of capitalist scum. To be sure, anyone taping us would think we were both hostile racist swine:)
It was all just harmless vocal stupidity though (neither of us would push a racist out of the way of an onrushing truck in truth).

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:24 am

As far as sex (which I can't believe I'm even responding) I get neither too much, nor too little. I'm not saying that boardgames are not to be liked, nor am I saying that they are obsolete. I am saying that there isn't anything you can do as boardgame that can't be done better and faster on a computer.

Tomo

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:30 am

Originally posted by Tombstone
But it WOULD be silly to say that boardgames are doing as well as they were doing 15 years ago tho. People do play boardgames, I do myself sometimes... but come on, things aren't like they used to be.

Tomo

Exactly. Just a FACT. And as computer wargames get better and better, and as the "nostalgic" wargamers amongst us get older and older... It will only get worse..

Just like no one uses horses to pull farm equipment, does long division anymore, or uses typewriters, even faxing is dying out, postal mail?, hundreds of examples..

Board wargames will die out as well...

They will be "obsolete".

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:38 am

Nah, lets see.

A turn of Victory the Blocks of War, faster than most of my computer wargames.

A turn of Axis and Allies, faster than any computer wargame that I can think of.

A turn of ASL (if you play the small scenarios) about as long as a turn of Steel Panthers on average (unless your play style is not to analytical).

I think a turn of most division level games on board games, is comparable to a turn in Operational Art of War.

A turn in A3R might be longer than a turn in Strategic Command, but then it depends on what side, what year it is, and how much thinking you want to do.

A turn in Up Front, almost as fast as you can play cards. No computer game is going to keep up with that.

A turn in Panzerblitz is basically about as fast as a turn in SP 3. Depends on how long you are going to spend deciding where to move the unit to.

Just because the computer is keeping track of the rules and the math, does not make playing them faster i n all cases eh.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:48 am

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Nah, lets see.

A turn of Axis and Allies, faster than any computer wargame that I can think of.

Just because the computer is keeping track of the rules and the math, does not make playing them faster i n all cases eh.

A turn in computer axis and allies is faster than a turn of the board game. For one no setup or cleanup, and it rolls the dice and interprets rules so less need to look them up. If your going to compare, compare equal things. If a computer game takes longer than a boardgame, its only because it has more depth of play, detail etc.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:58 am

Well considering that there are practically no examples of board game version, and exact computer game conversion comparisons, the comment has little merit on its own.

Computer wargames are not always faster than comparable scale board games.

That Axis and Allies on the computer can be set up and started faster, does not in any useful way say that computer wargames are defacto faster by default in all cases.

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:25 am

What does "faster" have to do with it? A month or so ago, somebody took issue with my ability to play UV turns at what seemed to him to be a rapid rate and stated that he liked to savor the experience more.

Board wargames are not dying out, nor are they likely to do so. The designers have taken two directions: one, they are producing serious, sophisticated games that only devotees of the hobby can enjoy; and two, they are producing easy-to-medium difficulty games that engage a wider playing public. The companies that survived the shakeout of the nineties are staying alive and even increasing their sales (although the current state of the world economy is having an effect, as it is on all sectors of economic life). This is not at all different from the approach taken by many of the early leaders in the hobby, such as Avalon Hill. AH met its Waterloo (sorry, couldn't resist) by sacrificing the serious for what it perceived to be the saleable. "Dr. Ruth's Game of Good Sex" may have been the final stake through the heart. Multi-Man Publishing is trying to keep the flame burning, but seems to be having trouble moving significantly beyond the ASL series (which is remarkable in itself).

Those who collect board wargames (and I am one of them) are contributing to a healthy commercial exchange of fun, interesting games that can be enjoyed anytime, by anyone. My collection consists of many duplicate copies: one that is punched and used for play and another that is in "mint" condition and safely stored away to appreciate in value.

I have a nice group of wargaming friends, both locally and with whom I play postally and PBEM, who range in age from 24 to (this is just an estimate, 'cause Barry don't like to tell) 70. We love our board games. We love our computer games. We love to play them both solitaire and with each other.

Scr*w this "better on a computer" nonsense. Some subjects are better treated as board wargames. Some subjects are better treated as computer wargames. Some subjects can be done successfully both ways (and unsuccessfully both ways). The idea here is FUN, not characterizing those of us who buy and play board wargames as dinosaurs, computer illiterates, or people who just don't get it. Maybe YOU ought to try getting it and stop being so closed-minded and chauvinistic.

My baby asked me last night if I wanted to have some fun. I said, "Yeah, baby." She asked me how I wanted it. I said, "I takes my fun any way I can get it, long as it's fun."

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:45 am

Under rare circumstances a radio show can be superior to one on video or a screen. Those instances are rare. There will always be those who live in the past, it's comforting. It is just an opinion I suppose, but it sure feels like a fact to me.

Tomo

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:52 am

Ah man the memories. Listening to the Shadow on the radio was so cool.

I can even remember when just getting FM was cool.

pasternakski · Post by **pasternakski** » Sat Feb 01, 2003 1:26 am

Originally posted by Tombstone
There will always be those who live in the past, it's comforting. It is just an opinion I suppose, but it sure feels like a fact to me.

Tomo

Listen, pal, I hardly live in the past. Part of my work as an editor of scholarly legal publications involves graphic design, and I spend a great deal of my time working with some of the most sophisticated software and hardware in the publishing industry. Your evaluation of board wargames and those who play them strikes me as inconsequential when seen in light of your lack of significant experience with the board wargaming hobby. The plain fact is that there are many facets of board wargame design that computer wargame designers can't even come close to reproducing. The environments are entirely different and I, for one, enjoy both - without deprecating one or the other or the people who appreciate them.