War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

[modrow]

Castor,

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't understand why so many people continuously place such emphasis on Japan having to make invasions whilst the amphibious bonus period lasts. All that bonus does is provide a greatly speeded up disembarkation rate. Against atolls that is a real benefit, against any other location where an auto shock attack does not result, so what.

Japan needs only these conditions for a hazzle free seaborn invasion of a non atoll hex.

1. Relative safety from sea or air attacks whilst the disembarkation occurs.
2. A relatively weak Allied garrison which cannot push the partially landed japanese forces back into the sea.

Provided these two conditions exist, there is absolutely no reason why Japan cannot conduct major seaborne invasions after the bonus ends.

Alfred

wonder if you know the difference between a fully unprepped invasion during the amphib bonus phase and after it. You know what happens to units that land somewhere uprepared after the amphib bonus? Probably not? THAT would be the real difference, I give a damn sh*t about the unloading speed, it's all about the one major factor of the amphib bonus and that sure isn't fast unloading.

wonder if you know that Alfred belongs to the people who insist knowing where want to be in 6 months time (and actually beyond that) is a must. For that reason, this difference most likely is no real difference to him, for that's ample of time to prep.

Of course, the amazing ability to do impromptu invasions vanishes with the amphib bonus. Of course, said bonus is a crutch that is really really not ideal (and actually tends to make your gameplay sloppy). But IMHO Alfred is totally correct when he states that Japan can conduct invasions at a later point of time if certain conditions are met and the issue you mention is unsuited to render this statement incorrect.

Just my 2cts

Hartwig

[Cap Mandrake]

Wow, someone skipped finishing school.

In essence, after the amphbious bonus disappears, JJ simply has to do what the Arries have to do, which is prep. JJ has the disadvantage that their prep orders may show up in Arried intel but this can be partly offset by "spoof-prepping" idle units for bases at which JJ does not intend to land.

Also, being less equipment-heavy, IJA units are easier to load. Not till '43 does the Arries start to get LST's and not till march 43 do they get APA's.

Quite possibly, JJ has units prepped already for follow-on landings..or they bring an army ashore at Chittagong and advance overland.

[Canoerebel]

3/24/42

China: (1) Lanchow Sector - the Japanese didn't cross the river. That means the Chinese reinforcmeent will reach the hex, bringing to gross AV to about 2,600. Judging by the "movement dot" in the Japanese hex, Steve may be moving all or part of his stack off the road and into the mountains. I'm not sure I understand that move, if that's actually what's happing, as the Allies have interior lines and a good road to work with. (2) Hengyang Sector: I've set both Chinese units to advance - I want to see if, in combat mode, the stack in the woods hex advances at the same rate as the stack in the clear hex. If not, I'll have to calculate whether I can make the attack simultaneously.

Bay of Bengal: KB pulls back into the Andman Sea. Several weeks ago, Steve pulled out part of his Johore Bharu stack and sent it to Georgetown, where he now picks them up for ready insertion into the India theater.

India: A Marine regiment destroys the Japanese paratroops at Jamedspur, so Steve knows the cavalry - in unknown strenth - is present. Could Steve truly be going for Bombay and Karachi? It seems so unlikely, but so did an invasion of Chittagong seem unlikely ten days ago.

North America: Nothing. BB Maryland is in the East Coast yards and will be ready for action in two months. BB Arizona will arrive at the yards in a couple of weeks. Tennessee and Nevada are ready to depart Pearl. I'm not yet sure whether they'll follow the first two or if, instead, they'll head to SoCal. Warpsite, currently at LA, will be ready for action within a week. The Allies have four BBs on the West Coast.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't understand why so many people continuously place such emphasis on Japan having to make invasions whilst the amphibious bonus period lasts. All that bonus does is provide a greatly speeded up disembarkation rate. Against atolls that is a real benefit, against any other location where an auto shock attack does not result, so what.

Japan needs only these conditions for a hazzle free seaborn invasion of a non atoll hex.

1. Relative safety from sea or air attacks whilst the disembarkation occurs.
2. A relatively weak Allied garrison which cannot push the partially landed japanese forces back into the sea.

Provided these two conditions exist, there is absolutely no reason why Japan cannot conduct major seaborne invasions after the bonus ends.

Alfred

wonder if you know the difference between a fully unprepped invasion during the amphib bonus phase and after it. You know what happens to units that land somewhere uprepared after the amphib bonus? Probably not? THAT would be the real difference, I give a damn sh*t about the unloading speed, it's all about the one major factor of the amphib bonus and that sure isn't fast unloading.

I recall loading the wrong division by accident and putting the 1st Marine ashore unprepped at an undefended Lunga. I had about 2/3rds of my total squads disrupted. Using AP and AK class ships which were the best I had at the time. Perhaps it is also a die roll but I certainly felt the pain there.

I will say that it seems that using small landing craft types ships result in far less disruption to units that are poorly prepped.

This eventually works to the Allies advantage.

[princep01]

Just for the record, Q-ball mentioned that the Japanese Naval Amphibious Bonus lasts 3 months.  This is not correct, but I know that others suffer from this preception.  Unless the bonus has changed since the manual was written, the special bonus lasts, "the first four months of the war" (p 127).  Taken literally, than means it ends after April 6, 1942.  Obviously, it is still in play in this game.

[Canoerebel]

I think the invasion bonus expires at the end of March, but I also thought until about four days ago that desert/rough terrain gave a 3x defensive bonus (it's actually 2x). So I could be wrong.

The invasion bonus is largely irrelevant for remote and lightly defended invasion targets. This means it's largely irrelevant for big land masses with plenty of targets, meaning that defenses are likely to be non existent or dispersed. So the lack of the bonus won't matter much if Steve wants to invade parts of India or Australia.

But it does complicate invasions of well defended single-based islands or atolls. In particular, I think it's significant for Coal Harbor on Vancouver Island. That beach is within range of alot of Allied air at Vancouver, Victoria, Prince Rupert and Seattle. I would think Steve would want every advantage in invading there, or else he'd have to bring overwhelming force, which I don't think he has available any more since so many of his divisions are committed across the globe.

So for Coal Harbor the invasion bonus is key. It might also be a signficant factor at Diego Garcia, Cocos Island and Socatra, which are well defended but certainly not insurmountable. Invade before the bonus expires and the task should be much easier and quicker.

I'm also interested in whether the loss of the two CVEs might affect Steve's decision making. Obviously, he felt more comfortable invading deep into hostile territory with those ships present to provide air cover. Their loss might make him less likely to go deep.

If Steve brings Akagi and Kaga the equation will change again. I wonder if that's what he's doing. I think so.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Castor is right, though he could have said it a little nicer.....the main thing on the amphib bonus isn't unload rates, it's the disruption you don't suffer when landing unprepped troops during that period. You can unload a completely unprepped land unit, and the only disruption it will suffer is from enemy fire; it lands almost intact. This means you can continuously pick up, move, conquer, etc.

On April 1, when the magic wears off, that goes away. This greatly slows down the Japanese tempo, because from that date, you have to actually prep forces in advance.

This also means the Japanese have to clear Singapore and the SRA by March 1 at the latest, in order to get to whatever phase 2 is and land by April 1.

Japanese players have to make max use of that bonus period. That's why time is so critical to the Japanese in first 3 months (among other factors).

And disablements! Land an unprepped unit without the amphib bonus (or as the Allied) and see it getting up to 70-80% disabled troops/equipment from landing only. That is what the amphib bonus is about for me.

[castor troy]

double post

[Canoerebel]

3/25/42

Sub Wars: One small consequence of Steve not taking Signapore rang out today. When it became clear Steve was moving into the Bay of Bengal, the Allies redeployed there 15 or 20 subs from the South China Sea and environs. These subs stopped at Singers (and a few from further east at Tjilitjap) to refuel. Those subs knocked out an IJ CL early in the campaign. Today, a Dutch sub put a torp into BB Haruna. (That's the first successful sub strike against an IJ capital ship in the war, following on two misses against BBs earlier in the game. The campaign against merchant shipping has been much more fruitful, though whether it's had any real impact I don't know. Steve's probably addressed that in his AAR.)

Bay of Bengal: Most of the carriers and transports have retired close to Georgetown, probably in the process of bringing up the second wave. Here's hoping the subs strike again. Steve may have to reinforce to take Port Blair any time soon. He has one division that was pretty beat up in the first attack, plus a small tank unit. So Port Blair is serving it's function - acting as a speed bump that ties up one division for awhile (though some might argue that losing two Indian brigades makes it a wash). Allied patrol aircraft at Sabang are giving me good looks at all the Japanese shipipng in the region.

American Carriers: One SBD-2 squadron upgraded to the -3 model at Bombay. I hope I can restore my carrier aircraft to the carrier within two or three days. The carriers are SW of North Male Island, trying to lay low but in position to cover Socatra in the event Steve tries a surreptitious deep strike.

India: The Allies have been digging at important bases on the west coast for months now - Goa, Surat, Bhamgart (spelling?) in particular. The latter two have decent garrisons, of which Bham has 310 AV (it's the port closest to Karachi). The Allies also have 300 AV at Viz, though Japan can simply land at the adjacent base to the south.

Reinforcements: An American RCT is on transports that just clear out of the Capetown channel and is making for Bombay, ETA five days. This unit is 100% prepped for Bombay. The second US RCT just left Capetown and is making for Socatra. 18th UK Div. is aboard transports that departed Perth three days ago. (I'm worried that Steve has the sea lanes between Oz and India covered, so I'm using five DDs as pickets and flankers.) Another UK divisions arrives at Aden over the next two to four weeks. Three American fighter squadrons are aboard transports enroute from Melbourne and are probably two weeks away. American 4EB continue to hop from USA to Pearl to Pago Pago to Oz to Tjilitjap (but Cocos Island airfield just went to level one, so now it can serve as a way-base) and finally to Colombo.

China: Still no crossing of the river above Lanchow. The movement-indicating dot still suggests some (all???) of the Japanese units are moving cross country into the mountain region between Lanchow and the base to the east. (What the heck? Given good terrain and plenty of time, the Chinese can probably stand better in that area than they could in the rough terrain near Lanchow.) This is a too good to be true scenario. So I'm still apprehensive about a massive attack near Lanchow. Down near Hengyang, the two Chinese stacks both moved 15 miles (one in forested hex, the other in Hengyang). This means that 4,000+ AV will shock attack across river against four IJA divisions in four days unless something happens in the meantime.

North America: Placid.

Port Moresby: CA Houston TF returned to this base and savaged several more transports and escorts.

[Canoerebel]

Here's an important debate I'm having with myself right now. Input is welcome.

It would be fantastic to have a complete list of all the IJA units across the river from the Chinese army near Lanchow. Steve has already sent a solo arty unit across the river to get complete roster info on my troops. I don't particularly like that tactic; never have, so I never do it unless I sacrifice a real unit that has firepower. Since he's done it here and has used paratroops to do the same thing, I'm inclined to wave my objections and reciprocate, using a headquarters unit for the job.

Thoughts?

Edited to Add: On further thought, I'll do it. I can't see any meanginful difference between sending an artillery unit across the river (as Steve did) and sending a headquarters unit (something like the Allies did on Guadalcanal after getting word that a contingent of Japanese soldiers was willing to surrender, which led to an awful debacle for the American troops and intel men that went forward to investigate).

[Canoerebel]

3/26/42

India Theater: The Japanese are advancing out of the Chittagong beachhead, but nothing major will take place for awhile. The KB is back at Georgetown. The Allied carrier squadrons have upgraded aircraft and made good replacements, so they are just about ready to go back aboard ship. I'll have to be careful in using them from this point forward - the pools are so low that they can't handle another round of combat unless it promises decisive results. Nearly all bases on the rail lines between Calcutta and Bombay/Karachi are adequately garrisoned now.

China: Still waiting to see which way Steve's army near Lanchow will move. Over at Hengyang, I learned (to my dismay) that the Chinese stack in the woods hex was not moving SE to join in the across-the-river attack. The stack was moving east towards the hex where the other stack is located. So I've stood down the latter stack to wait for the former stack to join them. So the cross river attack will take place in about six days if circumstances don't change my mind.

North America: Pretty quiet except enemy LRCAP over Bella Bella mistreated a couple of 4EB squadrons coming in to hit the airfield.

Sara and York: I've nearly decided to send them back to the West Coast to pick up their squadrons. Waiting a few more days to see if any Japanese carriers return. Really, I'm waiting to see if anything is going to happen at Coal Harbor near term. I just think that base is a "canary in a coal mine" to indicate Steve's long-term intentions here.

[Capt. Harlock]

I can't see any meanginful difference between sending an artillery unit across the river (as Steve did) and sending a headquarters unit (something like the Allies did on Guadalcanal after getting word that a contingent of Japanese soldiers was willing to surrender,

I'm guessing that a headquarters unit is the least valuable part of a Chinese army . . .[:D]

[Canoerebel]

[CaptDave]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's an important debate I'm having with myself right now. Input is welcome.

It would be fantastic to have a complete list of all the IJA units across the river from the Chinese army near Lanchow. Steve has already sent a solo arty unit across the river to get complete roster info on my troops. I don't particularly like that tactic; never have, so I never do it unless I sacrifice a real unit that has firepower. Since he's done it here and has used paratroops to do the same thing, I'm inclined to wave my objections and reciprocate, using a headquarters unit for the job.

Thoughts?

Edited to Add: On further thought, I'll do it. I can't see any meanginful difference between sending an artillery unit across the river (as Steve did) and sending a headquarters unit (something like the Allies did on Guadalcanal after getting word that a contingent of Japanese soldiers was willing to surrender, which led to an awful debacle for the American troops and intel men that went forward to investigate).

I don't have a lot of problem with this sort of thing, because it's compensation for something that's missing in the game mechanics. In real life we could send out patrols, but that's not possible in game and this is just about the best compromise available.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's an important debate I'm having with myself right now. Input is welcome.

It would be fantastic to have a complete list of all the IJA units across the river from the Chinese army near Lanchow. Steve has already sent a solo arty unit across the river to get complete roster info on my troops. I don't particularly like that tactic; never have, so I never do it unless I sacrifice a real unit that has firepower. Since he's done it here and has used paratroops to do the same thing, I'm inclined to wave my objections and reciprocate, using a headquarters unit for the job.

Thoughts?

Edited to Add: On further thought, I'll do it. I can't see any meanginful difference between sending an artillery unit across the river (as Steve did) and sending a headquarters unit (something like the Allies did on Guadalcanal after getting word that a contingent of Japanese soldiers was willing to surrender, which led to an awful debacle for the American troops and intel men that went forward to investigate).

You don't have any arty units to spare in China so using what you have available, an HQ unit, is the equivalent of what he did. But I am unsure whether the result will show all of the enemy units. For example, if there are several units in move mode for that flanking manoeuver, will they attack the HQ when it crosses the river? I doubt it.

As for the Guadalcanal anecdote, it just goes to show that 'intel' and 'intelligence' are two different things![:'(]
What were they thinking? - "These honorable Japanese gentlemen wish to cease hostilities and come in for coffee. Let's just forget about the treachery of the Pearl Harbour attack and the brutality of the Rape of Nanking - let bygones be bygones". D'Oh!

[artuitus_slith]

As a former Airborne soldier and an Iraq vet i can say unequivolcally that the HQ unit is the least importent unit of ANY army, at least until it comes to food, pay, supplies, leave ect... [8D]

[witpqs]

For CR (it's from the manual):


Edit to add: The movement rates (non-strat) are for Movement Mode. Cut by 1/2 for Combat Mode.

[Canoerebel]

2/27/42

Japanese Carriers: The IO KB is on the move again, scooting SW (true) from Georgetown as though to srape past Sumatra's western tip. Zuiho is well out in front in a separate TF already several hundred miles west of Sumatra (yes, she was exposed; no, I can't act on it now, since the KB's coming right behind her). Steve has his next target in sight, but I don't know what is is. There are alot of possibilities.

India: A full strength Marine regiment wasn't ablet o brush aside a Yokosuka unit in northeastern India. This came as an upleasant surprise, though my main purpose was to reveal this second Marine unit in India. Japan is still moving out from Chittagon, but has a way to go before it can really begin to threaten important bases. I still have one Aussie brigade at Colombo. I'll have to decide very soon whether to extract it. I probably will. A new UK brigade just arrived at Aden and will head to Karachi. One US Army RCT is about three days out of Bombay. The second is aboard Queen Mary enroute from Capetown to Socatra. 18th UK Div. is aboard transports well to the SW of Perth, following a complex system of flankers and pickets.

China: No move by Japan to cross the river in the Lanchow sector yet. A small Chinese unit has interdicted Japan's supply road. Two IJ units are moving in - possibly two sections of 3rd Division (I had recent SigInt that 3rd/A divsiions was at the Japanese-held base about four hexes north (true) of Lanchow.) Yesterday, three small Chinese units held against a divsions plus mixed brigade attack in the forested hex SE of Changsha. This was yet another good showing by the Chinese army.

North America: Quiet except for an ineffective raid by Kates against Prince Rupert.

[Cap Mandrake]

Southwest? Huh?

CR;

When you say SW(true) are you referring to the real world geography?

[Canoerebel]

Yes.

I have not been able to get myself to use the game map orientation for directions. I think I"m afraid that doing so will mess up my feel for real-world geography. So I use "(true)" just to clarify to readers that I'm not using game map orientation.