Parry and Spar, or is it... Reluctant Admiral 4.2 Fulkerson(J) vs Moore (A)

[larryfulkerson]

Hey Moo......do me a favor and post a screenshot of one of those Tracker economic charts of your game w/ TommyG. I want to compare it with our game's economic situation.

[Methuen]

Again true, but HOW are you producing enough HI, fuel and supply to have any war and production at the same time? I'm BARELY keeping Maebashi supplied from Tokyo by air to produce 56 A6M2's each month and the HI demands are more than I can keep up with, I'm paying repair points to expand HI first which will EVENTUALLY allow me to make more supply. What are your Shipyards, Armaments, and Vehicles doing?

Hmm, I think maybe because I've always played Hakko Ichiu I get extra supply and fuel at the beginning of the game? I start with 4.8M supply and 4.2M Fuel. That aside I see from your screen shot you've got 85000 HI accumulated!? Also why do you need to keep Maebashi supplied by air???

[larryfulkerson]

Hey Jim ( and all you guys ) I've constructed a comparison of my game w/ Jim and my game w/ Rob. They are almost identical except
for a few things and they're only a few days apart in game time. Lemme know what you think.

EDIT: my game w/ Rob is the stock scenario and my game w/ Jim is RA 4.2

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the comparison between Jim and me and Jim and TommyG's game:

[moore4807]

ORIGINAL: brotherbaldrick

Hmm, I think maybe because I've always played Hakko Ichiu I get extra supply and fuel at the beginning of the game? I start with 4.8M supply and 4.2M Fuel. That aside I see from your screen shot you've got 85000 HI accumulated!? Also why do you need to keep Maebashi supplied by air???

[:D][:D][:D] OHHHH!!!!! What I COULD do in this game with +4M supply & fuel... Have you tried that in a Scenario #1 or RA game yet? If not, I would seriously expect a crash like mine. I do not believe I have 85K in HI sitting around, I'm curious to know where your getting that number? I'm desperately trying to kickstart production because the aircraft factories are not researching anything yet.

The Maebashi problem is it's an Airfield not an base and has no Port facilities. Try having 3 of your largest aircraft factories placed there [:(][:(][:(] You start going through supplies 1-5K per turn trying to build 200+ aircraft, So I had to move some transport A/C into Tokyo, then a second transport group in when that number was still failing. I had 40+ Thalias operating until recently in Tokyo supporting Maebashi when in another crisis move made me move one elsewhere (Opsec) As noted in the beginning of this AAR, John 3rd (one of the designers of the RA mod) says you have to be good with the economy to survive in this game. (a loose translation of his exact words).

The other devil is Tokyo and Osaka both start with +400K supplies and fuel (or therabouts) Its the end of January and Tokyo is just above 100K and Osaka is +40K supplies. I DO not strip out Port Arthur of supplies since I will need them there later in the war. Miri, Balilpapan, Tarakan, and Samarinda have all been taken relatively undamaged, but Java and Sumatra Is. are still in enemy hands because I've mishandled and mangled my supplies... (a lot of them are tied up in P.I. in a very similar situation to what Larry is going through with me there...[;)]

BrotherBaldrick, Thanks for clearing up this mystery for me, I was thinking "Am I REALLY this bad a player?" Well Do NOT answer that question! [:D][:D][:D]

[moore4807]

[:)] Ok, I am a sap and I'm only going to say this once...

Thank You for 6,000 hits/reads - I am overwhelmed that that MANY people have taken thier time to read our little adventure.

Kudo's to Larry for his fine talents and skills he brought with him, and to all who have posted/read or spent thier time here - You da Bomb! (pun intended)

[moore4807]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Here's the comparison between Jim and me and Jim and TommyG's game:

This from the turn I JUST got from Tom G. shows spoilage and from where. actually its not as bad as earlier this month, but still sloppy work on my part.

[moore4807]

Hot off the presses! Tom G just sent his turn, looking over the warnings - now checking the charts... Comments n suggestions? anyone? Bueller??? [:D][:D][:D]

EDIT: on a serious note, I've read in other AAR's about turning off armaments to save HI, whats a safe amount to have first before doing that?

[Kitakami]

One thing I do is to trim merchant shipyards to the level needed, maybe a few points more, but not more than that. This, coupled with stopping all the smaller cargo ships, should give you a nice level of savings. But then I do not run unescorted convoys, and I convert all ships I can to PB's (those that are not needed as minefield tenders, that is). I did need to increase naval shipyards a few points though.

Regarding Armament factories I turned off some 270 right from the start, but I did increase vehicle production to 210. My idea is to have an increaso of both every turn, even if small, just like what I want with HI.

Just my 2 cents

[FatR]

Personally I prefer to keep both armament and vehicles around 200 producing factories. Seems to be sufficient. Merchant shipyard production starts excessive then goes into massive deficit in 1943. Japan starts with a huge surplus of merchant shipping, of course, so if one can prevent massive losses to sub warfare, you don't need more xAKs, probably just more tankers, more to cover unexpected convoy destructions by enemy raids, than anything. To minimize the sub threat, convert every hull you can to PBs or mine warfare ships, convert a significant number of Yusen/Kyushu xAKs to AV for stationary or escort air ASW duty (airgroups can be provided by removing secondary floatplane groups from cruisers and expanding them), dedicate some army airgroups to ASW, train all dive bomber pilots in ASW as a secondary skill.

[Kitakami]

Thanks for sharing those numbers! I am currently at 565 armament 210 vehicle. If 200 armament is enough, I will stop over 300 armament factories as soon as I see that surplus stabilizes somewhat. Is there a particular safety level you consider adequate?

The conversion to AV is something I had not considered. Hmm... have to take a look at that. And yes, if all you want on a cruiser is Jakes, one unit is enough. The other one can be offloaded and resized.

[moore4807]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

One thing I do is to trim merchant shipyards to the level needed, maybe a few points more, but not more than that. This, coupled with stopping all the smaller cargo ships, should give you a nice level of savings. But then I do not run unescorted convoys, and I convert all ships I can to PB's (those that are not needed as minefield tenders, that is). I did need to increase naval shipyards a few points though.

Regarding Armament factories I turned off some 270 right from the start, but I did increase vehicle production to 210. My idea is to have an increaso of both every turn, even if small, just like what I want with HI.

Just my 2 cents

Kitakami & FatR,
First, thank you for your posts and input, Now the advice is good, I've already sent all the compatible AKL's to three shipyards to switch over to PB, I am also doing escorted TF's to hubs and using the AKL's and small AK's to "spoke" the supplies and fuel, returning with resources/oil to the hubs.

Questions that come to mind are;

Are my current levels of Naval (and Merchant Yards ) Too much, Too little, or around the target??? (from FatR's suggestion)

I have 121 bld points in Vehicles with (63) in parenthesis, so I need to add around 15-20 more factory points there?

I also see that dropping the armaments to 200 from it's current 620 will save me around 2000 HI (???)

How long does it take to build HI plants in the Home Is.? I have jacked the HI plants at Tokyo and Kobe but do not see any appreciable increase, will it take months to ramp up production?

Thanks again for your time and sharing your knowledge!

ORIGINAL: FatR

Personally I prefer to keep both armament and vehicles around 200 producing factories. Seems to be sufficient. Merchant shipyard production starts excessive then goes into massive deficit in 1943. Japan starts with a huge surplus of merchant shipping, of course, so if one can prevent massive losses to sub warfare, you don't need more xAKs, probably just more tankers, more to cover unexpected convoy destructions by enemy raids, than anything. To minimize the sub threat, convert every hull you can to PBs or mine warfare ships, convert a significant number of Yusen/Kyushu xAKs to AV for stationary or escort air ASW duty (airgroups can be provided by removing secondary floatplane groups from cruisers and expanding them), dedicate some army airgroups to ASW, train all dive bomber pilots in ASW as a secondary skill.

EDIT: I have been running SCTF's of CA,CL,DD along my main shipping route and following the XXL-sized convoys with a SCTF to prevent the convoy raiders, my PS & SC are ASW and I try to keep them away from gun battles.

Are the AV's better at ASW than DD/PB/SC???

[Kitakami]

If I were you, I'd heed FatR's advice over mine. I am actually quite rust after a long time of not playing, and RA is taking a bit to get used to. Yet, here is what I think...

1. Merchant shipyards. You have 7143 points stored, with a surplus of 228. I'd reduce it by 200 and adjust it upwards as build requirements increase. But that is just me. I prefer to hoard HI than Merchant points.

2. Naval shipyards. You have 195 points stored, with a surplus of 55. I'd reduce the surplus to 0, but if you want to accelerate something, then turn on what you need to have a surplus of 5 a turn or so.

3. Vehicle factories. Yes, I'd increase the total to 200. That is 16 more points. Do it in the factories that have either nothing to repair, or the smallest number of repairs to do. That way, you get those vehicles faster.

4. Armaments. I'd turn off 200 factory points or so, and see what happens. That is a savings of 1200 HI per turn.

5. HI construction depends on many factors. Location is one of the most critical ones. I would NOT build more HI until you know how you will stand long term, meaning not until after you conquer Singapore, Java and Sumatra. You need fuel and resources to feed the HI, and the resource situation of Japan is not in the best of shapes in the beginning. In fact, depending on your supply situation, I would turn ON the DO NOT REPAIR switch for the HI you have already ordered. They repair at the rate of 1/turn, by the way, as long as you have enough supply present (10K) consumming 1K supplies per repair in the process.

6. An AV supporting 20-24 land-based float planes on ASW with pilots trained to the 70-level in ASW will do wonders to keep enemy subs submerged and away from your ships. I like to disband them in strategic locations where they can cover up to 20 hexes of a convoy's route. But you can also have the AVs join the convoys with a (smaller, 4-9 plane) air group onboard, doing exactly the same .

Those are a few, personal, and imperfect thoughts. They are NOT the ultimate solution to Japan's woes in RA, but they should help keep you on track. The ultimate solution is to grab resources, oil and refineries intact, preferably along with a good number of HI. But the intact part is the one that is difficult to achieve

[larryfulkerson]

I concur w/ what Kitakami said. I especially like the part about AV's being part of a convoy or stationed along the route. I hadn't thought
of that.

The first shipment of oil from Balikpapan is arriving at BubbleDrop. I don't remember when I captured Balik but it seems like it was about
a week ago game time. It's taken that long to repair the refineries and get the oil flowing again. The engineers there are ready to re-
deploy to somewhere else now. I'm thinking of moving all the oil I can from Balik to BubbleDrop and then using the long-range TK's to
move the oil to the home islands. Hub and spoke kind of thing.

[moore4807]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

If I were you, I'd heed FatR's advice over mine. I am actually quite rust after a long time of not playing, and RA is taking a bit to get used to.
[:)] Take it as a compliment from a noob, but your suggestions are dead on with my thinking, I've played enough (vs AI) to understand its the economy, not the warmaking that determines how far you get as Japan...

Yet, here is what I think...
1. Merchant shipyards. You have 7143 points stored, with a surplus of 228. I'd reduce it by 200 and adjust it upwards as build requirements increase. But that is just me. I prefer to hoard HI than Merchant points.
Agreed - this is stock so far with only adjustments were turning OFF "E" class ships and half of the barges. This probably where the surplus came from.

2. Naval shipyards. You have 195 points stored, with a surplus of 55. I'd reduce the surplus to 0, but if you want to accelerate something, then turn on what you need to have a surplus of 5 a turn or so.
OK Do you have any suggestions? I was looking at BB Musashi due in Dec.42 for accelerating but its a LOT of points!

3. Vehicle factories. Yes, I'd increase the total to 200. That is 16 more points. Do it in the factories that have either nothing to repair, or the smallest number of repairs to do. That way, you get those vehicles faster.
Got it.

4. Armaments. I'd turn off 200 factory points or so, and see what happens. That is a savings of 1200 HI per turn.
I was thinking I'd like to eliminate as many Non-port or Non base factories first, Maebashi is a good example where production is eating up supply faster than it can move from Tokyo next door...

5. HI construction depends on many factors. Location is one of the most critical ones. I would NOT build more HI until you know how you will stand long term, meaning not until after you conquer Singapore, Java and Sumatra. You need fuel and resources to feed the HI, and the resource situation of Japan is not in the best of shapes in the beginning. In fact, depending on your supply situation, I would turn ON the DO NOT REPAIR switch for the HI you have already ordered. They repair at the rate of 1/turn, by the way, as long as you have enough supply present (10K) consumming 1K supplies per repair in the process.
Good point, I was thinking that Balikpapan was uncontested - no damages, Miri was half damaged & I dumped 5 construction units to speed up repair there, everything else on the island fell without any appreciable damage... Actually Balikpapan already has fuel spoilage since my TK TF's are still enroute there! I'm actually trying to make HI to GET the supply up, but I get your point.

6. An AV supporting 20-24 land-based float planes on ASW with pilots trained to the 70-level in ASW will do wonders to keep enemy subs submerged and away from your ships. I like to disband them in strategic locations where they can cover up to 20 hexes of a convoy's route. But you can also have the AVs join the convoys with a (smaller, 4-9 plane) air group onboard, doing exactly the same .
Right now my three main hub shipping lines are;
1) Tokyo - Davao/Babelbobs - Rabaul.
2) Osaka - Takao/Hong Kong - Saigon.
3) Tokyo - Sapporo (Home Is. resources to Tokyo)
a Fourth line is probably going to be fuel/oil related Balikpapan - Miri - Nagasaki
ALL of these shipping lines hubs have at least one ASW Betty or Nell group. I have Babs along all three routes doing Naval searches, and thinking about spending PP to free up Home Defense A/C, but havent had to yet. The "spoke" AK/AKL's are the only unprotected TF ships so far. The idea is to get in and out of the smaller bases in a day with supply. Comments?

Those are a few, personal, and imperfect thoughts. They are NOT the ultimate solution to Japan's woes in RA, but they should help keep you on track. The ultimate solution is to grab resources, oil and refineries intact, preferably along with a good number of HI. But the intact part is the one that is difficult to achieve

[;)] AMEN Brother Kitikami! ... Actually I'm feeling pretty good about my Japanese game after reading your comments... Larry is doing VERY WELL against me playing as the Japanese, We both notice how much different (better!) our game is than against the AI. The RA mod just turns up the heat on you to get your economics in order playing as the Japanese, but they also do put a carrot on the end of this stick!!!

Again thanks for your input and advice!

[larryfulkerson]

Early on I decided to convert a lot of the smaller AKL's to something else ( PB's, AKE's, AV's etc. ) and I've gotten a small fleet of AV's
so far. Not nearly enough still but more than I had before. I'm keeping my eyes open to convert more ships to other types and
convert them when I find them. I'm finding that I have more than enough AK's and AKL's and AP's and not enough AV's so far.

[Kitakami]

For parking them somewhere so they can service floatplanes, the 17 hulls of the Husimi class are my prefence. But if you want them running with 18-kt. cargo ships, then you'll have to convert some Kyushu's, as FatR stated. The Hisimi-class takes 180 days to convert, while the Kyushus take 210 days. I prefer to do the Husimis, so that the Kyushu's can do their job as fast transports, but to each, his or her own. As for air groups, take the 1-plane group from the 13 CA's that have two groups, and the 6 groups from the 3 CVS's, resize them using the CVS's themselves, and you have 19 FP groups to play with. They need lots of training too of course!

[larryfulkerson]

I've found that Hakodate has a small fortune in Resources and it's really close to the home islands and relatively safe for convoys so I'm
planning on making a lot of runs in and out of there.

[moore4807]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I've found that Hakodate has a small fortune in Resources and it's really close to the home islands and relatively safe for convoys so I'm
planning on making a lot of runs in and out of there.

Yep and you are going to get a LOT of attention there from the silent service for just that reason...[:'(][:'(][:'(]
Sapporo, Hakodate and the base four to the right of Hakodate(with the aircraft symbol) are all loaded with resources for the Home Is.

[Kitakami]

But then again, that is the perfect place to cover with 4x SC in each port (in an ASW TF), and one decently trained air unit on ASW. Add to that 2-4 PB's per cargo TF, and losses should be light... at least until the US torpedoes get fixed :S