TO&E and OOB information

[aspqrz02]

I've been having a look at the Nafziger OOB/TO&E collection ...

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/nafziger.asp

(Download the Finding Aid ...)

... and it has pretty good data for German units for 1941-43 (and later, but I limited my examination to the most relevant period), but for Axis Allies (Romania, Hungary, Italy, Slovakia etc.) the information is nowhere near as good.

The German info gives data down to company level or lower for many, if not most, units, for example. That is, the major equipment issued to the Company, though not always the number of men in it.

For the Axis allies, however, most of the data goes down only to Division level - usually only a list of the Regiments, and no data on what their equipment was. For some Axis allied units, Regimental data is provided, often for elements that aren't particularly useful for us ... and for a rare few, lower level units have data provided, again, often not for units that are militarily relevant (who needs to know the TO&E for the Divisional Postal Company, for example?!)

I haven't checked the Soviet OOB/TO&E information at all.

So, afaict, it should be possible to do a reasonably accurate German OOB/TO&E to upgrade some of the anomalies that exist as DCCB stands, and possibly ditto for the Russians.

For the Axis allies, not so much ... unless someone has access to data for Regimental and/or lower level equipment for the Romanians, Hungarians and Italians, for example.

Even if only for some Regiments of some Divisions that we could extrapolate from. For example, it's nice to know that a Romanian Infantry XX has an Artillery Regiment ... but how many tubes, and of what type, was it equipped? Things like that.

Anyone have any data, or a line on it? Preferably online, unless you happen to have an actual OOB/TO&E book on your bookshelves and are prepared to summarise for us?

Anyone? [&:]

Phil

[aspqrz02]

OK. Quick search shows ...

http://www.worldwar2.ro/

... for Romania, but the data on organisation is in narrative form, and difficult to mine effectively. There is also ...

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders- ... s-1942.htm

... which is less detailed but, perhaps, more usable.

There is also some information on Slovak, Croatian and Spanish Eastern front units at ...

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders- ... Allies.htm

Limited information on the Hungarian army ...

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders- ... s-1942.htm

More detailed Hungarian OOBs ...

http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary/__vkf.htm
http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary ... nf_42.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary ... md_42.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary ... v-sec.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/015_hungary ... 3_org.html

Deployment of Axis Minors forces by theaters (1942) ...

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders- ... minors.htm

Italy, Italian Expeditionary Force, 1941 and 42 ...

http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/4 ... _csir.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/4 ... my_08.html

(click on some of the units with dark red borders for more detailed lower level information)

Italy, overall, click on the Military Organisations for detailed(ish) unit OOBs ...

http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/__italy.htm

That's what I have found so far ... and even so, it doesn't always drill down as deep as we probably need for a completely accurate OOB, though we may be able to get better than the existing one [;)]

Phil

[bwheatley]

Nice link i was actually just trying to look for a good 1942 SS Panzer Division TOE. Cause what's there now is actually under what a heer PzD has.

[Redmarkus5]

If you guys can give me simple results for generic TOEs of each unit type (expressed in DCCB terms - so tell my 5 Inf, 5 Pz III, etc.) I'll edit the units in the Case Blue scenario.

[aspqrz02]

OK. In DCCB terms ... how many

Infantry = 1 Infantry Point
Tanks = 1 Tank Point
Artillery Tubes = 1 Artillery Point
and etc. for whatever weapon types

... always assuming that this is not a 1:1 correspondence?

And, forex, for Infantry, does this assume a certain number of MGs and the like, or are they separate. I assume, unlike ATG, that it is the former?

Phil

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

OK. In DCCB terms ... how many

Infantry = 1 Infantry Point
Tanks = 1 Tank Point
Artillery Tubes = 1 Artillery Point
and etc. for whatever weapon types

... always assuming that this is not a 1:1 correspondence?

And, forex, for Infantry, does this assume a certain number of MGs and the like, or are they separate. I assume, unlike ATG, that it is the former?

Phil

It can be set differently for any scenario (and also changed by a modder) but in DCCB Vanilla and all my mod versions it is 100/1 for infantry and 5/1 for everything else.

But you can just tell me the values you want to see on the unit display.

[aspqrz02]

It's 2:30 am local time, and I'm off to bed ... back tomorrow with some data, as Infantry 100:1 and Everything Else 5:1

It will probably take some time, and some guesswork for the Axis Minors, at the very least! [;)][X(][:D]

Phil

[aspqrz02]

Infantry can't be 100:1 in DCCB!

A Romanian Infantry Regiment has 2000 Infantry in the TO&E = 20000 Infantry by that conversion!

Considering that the Regiment + attachments is really a Brigade, actual strength would be closer to 3000-4000 actual infantry (3 x Regiments in a Division = 9-12000 men, and the 1942 TO&E was 13,500 for the Division).

So, 3-4 Infantry = 1 Infantry point

Phil

[LiquidSky]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Infantry can't be 100:1 in DCCB!

A Romanian Infantry Regiment has 2000 Infantry in the TO&E = 20000 Infantry by that conversion!

Considering that the Regiment + attachments is really a Brigade, actual strength would be closer to 3000-4000 actual infantry (3 x Regiments in a Division = 9-12000 men, and the 1942 TO&E was 13,500 for the Division).

So, 3-4 Infantry = 1 Infantry point

Phil

2000 * 100 is 200,000

When I look at a typical axis minor regiment on the map, its value is in the lower 30's....

For example...of the 23rd Light Infantry Division. The 23rd Hungarian Light Division has in one of its two regiments:

2300 infantry (Hun)
30 37mm PAK
10 75mm LEIG
5 105mm LEFH

2300 divided by 100 is 23
30 divided by 5 is 6
10 divided by 5 is 2
5 divided by 5 is 1

add them up and you get its strength on the counter of 32

If your full strength unit is supposed to have 3000-4000 infantry....that would be 30 to 40 on the counter.

[aspqrz02]

OK. Romanian Infantry Division based on the best information I can gather ...

Romanian Infantry Division: 3 x Infantry Regiments, 2 x Artillery Regiments, 1 Recon Company, 1 AT Company (6 x 45mm AT), 1 Pioneer Battalion

Infantry Regiment: 2 x Infantry Battalions, 1 Scout Company, 1 x Pioneer Company, 1 Regimental Heavy Weapons Company (6 x 81.4mm Mortars, 6 x 120mm Mortars, 6 x 37mm Bofors AA, 18 x 37mm AT, 4 x 45mm AT, 6 x 75mm PAK (Octovber 42))

Infantry Battalion: 3 x Infantry Companies, 1 x Heavy Weapons Company (16 x Heavy MG, 6 x 60mm Mortars)

Artillery Regiment (Even #): 12 x 75mm, 12 x 76.2mm (Soviet), 12 x 100mm Howitzers

Artillery Regiment (Odd #): 12 x 75mm, 12 x 100mm Howitzers

How does this shape up in DCCB terms? This is a guess, as I have no idea how many infantry are in a Company/Battalion/Regiment ... I'm guessing c. 200 for a Company, c. 6-700 for a Battalion and, therefore, c. 1500-1800 for a Regiment.

1) For a start, the Romanian Infantry XX should have 3 x Infantry Regiments and 1 x Artillery Regiment, for a total of four subunits, just like most German Divisions.

2) Romanian Infantry Regiment: 2000 Infantry (Romanian), 12 Infantry Gun (8 x 75mm LeIG, 4 x 76.2mm Soviet), 12 Lt. AA (37mm), 22 Lt AT (18 37mm PAK, 4 x 45mm Soviet), 6 x Heavy AT (75mm PAK, from late 1942)

3) Romanian Artillery Regiment: 200 2nd Line Infantry (Romanian), 16x 100mm Howitzers.

NB: The Artillery Regiment is quite weak, as the 75mm guns are really Infantry Guns and have been distributed to the Infantry Regiments, and only retains the 100mm Howitzers. However, it *should* be represented separately. The infantry strength of the Infantry Regiments subsumes the Divisional Pioneer Battalion, Divisional Recon Company, Regimental Scout Company and Regimental Pioneer Company.

Overall: The Infantry Regiments have a Lt. AT capacity, which they didn't have, but should, historically, have. The 100mm Howitzers are real Divisional Artillery, not Infantry Guns and, even though it is a weak Artillery Regiment, it should be present.

Actually, it looks as if 1-2 Infantry personnel = 1 Infantry point, but include another +1 support personnel.

Phil

[LiquidSky]

At the Battle of Kharkov in May the 1st Rumanian Division (under Barzotescu) had:

5th Jager Regiment with only the 2nd Battalion. about 500 men.

85th Infantry Regiment with 1st and 2nd Battalion. about 500 men each.

93rd Infantry Regiment with 1st and 2nd Battalion.. also about 500 men each.

1st Field Artillery Regt. with the 1st Battalion containing four 75mm guns, the second battlaion containing eight 75mm guns and the 3rd battalion containing eight 100mm guns. (all horse drawn)

38th Field Artillery Regt. with the 1st Battalion containing ten 75mm guns, and the second battlion containing six 100mm guns (all horse drawn)

As well, there was a company of engineers (about 150 men), a company of AT (twelve 47mm AT guns) and a motorized flak company of six 20mm Flak.

Its interesing to contrast this with the same division at the moment of Operation Uranus...

This time the division is commanded by Mihaescu

85th Infantry Regiment with 2 battalions..this time with around 180 men each.

93rd Regiment with 2 battalions..also with 180 men each.

5th Jager (or Regimentul 5 Vanatori, in Rumanian) got its 2nd battalion back, but both battalions reduced to 180 men.

The 1st Artillery Regiment has two Battalions, one with eight 75mm guns, the other with eight 100mm guns.
The 38th Artillery Regiment has two Battalions, the same as the 1st (eight 75mm and eight 100mm) all horse drawn.

As well...they have a Recon Battalion of three companies of 81 men, on foot, and one company of 81 men on horse.
And a Battalion of Engineers of three companies at 79 men each. (foot).





Even if you take the May 1942 Rumanian infantry division as 'typical' you would give them three counters with 10 infantry, 1 47mm AT, 1 75mm Art, and 1 100mm Art Strength point, for a 13 Strength.

Redmarkus, you may want to consider leaving the the Rumanian divisions (and the perhaps the Hungarians as well) as a single counter per division in the game. It would rank them about as strong as a full strength German Regiment.

[LiquidSky]

Just for fun....

At the Seige of Budapest, January 1945...the 2nd Rumanian infantry division, now fighting for the Russians had:

1st Infantry regiment, with two battalions of 387 men.

26th Infantry regiment, with two battalions of 387 men.

31st Infantry regiment, with (you guessed it) two battalions of 387 men.

9th Artillery regiment, with four battalions of artillery....two horse drawn battalions of twelve 76mm M42's, one horse drawn battlion of twenty-four 76mm M42's, and a motorized battalion of 12 120mm M38 mortars.

[aspqrz02]

Romanian Mountain Division

Romanian Mountain Division: 2 x Mountain Infantry Regiments, 1 x Mountain Artillery Regiment, 1 Engineer Battalion, 1 Scout Company, 1 Motorised Lt AA Company (12 x AAMG), 1 Motorised Lt AT Company (12 47mm AT), 1 Motorised MP Company

Mountain Infantry Regiment: 3 Mountain Infantry Battalions, 1 Engineer Platoon

Mountain Infantry Battalion: 3 Mountain Infantry Companies (2 x 60mm Mortars each), 1 Mountain Heavy Weapon Company (18 HMG, 6 x 81.4mm Mortars)

Mountain Artillery Regiment: 2 x Mountain Artillery Battalions

Mountain Artillery Battalion: 24 x 75mm Gun, 12 x 100mm Howitzer.

In DCCB terms ...

1) 2 x Mountain Infantry Regiments and 1 x Mountain Artillery Regiment, rather than just two Regiments

2) Mountain Infantry Regiment (each): 1800 Mountain Infantry, 12 x 75mm Infantry Guns/Mountain Guns, 6 x Lt AA (AAMG), 6 x Lt AT (47mm AT)

3) Mountain Artillery Regiment: 200 Second Line Infantry, 24 x 75mm Mountain Guns, 24 x 100mm Howitzers

Note: I am uncertain as to the Infantry strength of the unit. Until Case Blue it was rated as a Brigade, rather than a Division, but, afaict, only the title changed ... it still had only 2 Infantry Regiments (though these could have been changed from 3 Battalion Regiments to 2 Battalion Regiments, as the Infantry Division's Infantry Regiments were ... my sources don't say. If so, reduce the strength proportionally, to, say 12000 Actual People). As with the Infantry Division, it has substantial artillery assets, and should have a separate Artillery Regiment. The 75mm Mountain Guns could all be divided into the Infantry Regiments, giving them 24 Guns per Regiment, and leaving the Artillery Regiment with 24 x 100mm Howitzers, however, I believe that some of the 75mm's should remain in the Artillery Regiment, to avoid making the Infantry Regiments too strong.

Yes. This makes the Mountain Division far stronger in artillery than the Infantry Division - but that's what the TO&E and OOBs indicate is correct, as far as I can tell. Of course, there are far fewer of them.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

I think you really should have the Romanian Infantry Divisions as 3 x Infantry Regiments and 1 x (weak) Artillery Regiment ... that allows them to cover more frontage, but less effectively/strongly than a 2 x Regiment Division, and this represents the weakness of Rumanian units as shown in the way the Russians cut through them around Stalingrad.

As for the manpower strengths, I can only give the TO&E Strengths. 17500 men at the start of Barbarossa, with 3 x 3 Battalion Regiments. 13500 men by 1942, with 3 x 2 Battalion Regiments. However, the Romanians had trouble maintaining replacements and, from what I have read, had to disband all their Security Divisions (4?) after Stalingrad to bring some of their shattered Infantry Divisions back to something resembling full strength. They also disbanded and/or combined a number of shattered infantry Divisions to form a single stronger composite Division with a new Divisional #.

The Armoured Division suffered similar problems, losses outstripping ability to provide replacements, which is why it comes in as a reinforcement in the Case Blue scenario, it was badly hurt in the battles of 1941 and had to be withdrawn to be re-equipped and reinforced.

I believe that the Cavalry Divisions/Brigades and, probably, the Mountain Divisions/Brigades suffered the same problems.

Important Note: All the unit data I am giving is based, as best as I can, on the official TO&Es. That means, of course, that it is the ideal full strength state of the unit. This rarely applied, even in garrison, in peacetime, and during combat operations would be, at best, a pious hope. The best I can suggest is that Romanian units at scenario start be subject to a bigger negative fudge factor for their strength than German units are, if this can be done, as, from the little information I have come across, the Romanians had severe problems with replacing manpower on the Eastern Front.

So, Liquidsky, your figures are good ... but I am talking nominal TO&E strength, which is quite different.

Phil

Phil

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Infantry can't be 100:1 in DCCB!

A Romanian Infantry Regiment has 2000 Infantry in the TO&E = 20000 Infantry by that conversion!

Considering that the Regiment + attachments is really a Brigade, actual strength would be closer to 3000-4000 actual infantry (3 x Regiments in a Division = 9-12000 men, and the 1942 TO&E was 13,500 for the Division).

So, 3-4 Infantry = 1 Infantry point

Phil

It is 100:1.

here is the rom inf model


3 rom infantry regiments are the subunits

here is a Rom Inf Reg


20Inf * 100 = 2000 Guys

Then just for kicks the stats showing ratio

[aspqrz02]

So, that means the 2000 Infantry (Romanian) shown in the unit window on the Game Screen actually = 20000 Infantry?

Or does it mean that it really represents 20 Infantry Points, which happens to be 2000 Actual People.

I'm guessing the latter.

So, the values I am giving are "Actual People" not points. Clear as mud? [&:] [;)] [:D]

Phil

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

So, that means the 2000 Infantry (Romanian) shown in the unit window on the Game Screen actually = 20000 Infantry?

Or does it mean that it really represents 20 Infantry Points, which happens to be 2000 Actual People.

I'm guessing the latter.

So, the values I am giving are "Actual People" not points. Clear as mud? [&:] [;)] [:D]

Phil

Well it's just an abstraction I'd imagine to make large battles easier for the combat engine to handle. Instead of 9000ish(for a german div) individual units fighting which would be laggy it's just 90 infantry units.

And the counter shows you infantry X9000 to let you know it's 9000 men while the back end sftype is really only 90.

But yea to figure out how many Power Points a unit has you would look up the SFTYPE and take the # of units * PowerPts. So with infantry(1 PP) it is as you suspect
COUNTERDISPLAY/100*1

For anything but infantry it's a ratio of 5.

You see 5 Tanks that's 5/1 so only really 1 tank in the sftype.

And i just looked through 100 sftypes and it looks like for DC vic simplifed the PowerPts and all units at 1Power Point. Which i guess makes sense since this game is more about using historic reinforcements and less about building and production.

[aspqrz02]

Romanian Cavalry Brigade: Type 1 (Part Motorised) -- 5th, 6th, 8th Cavalry Brigades

Romanian Cavalry Brigade (Type 1, Part Motorised): 2 x Mounted Cavalry Regiments, 1 x Cavalry (Mot) Regiment, 1 x Horse Artillery Regiment, 1 x Recon Company (Mot), 1 x MG Company (Mot), 1 x AAMG Company (Mot), 1 x Lt AT Company (Mot), 1 x Mortar Company (Mot), 1 x Pioneer Company (Mot), 1 x MP Platoon (Mot)

Mounted Cavalry Regiment: 2 x Cavalry Battalions, 1 Pioneer Platoon

Mounted Cavalry Battalion: 2 x Cavalry Companies

Motorised Cavalry Regiment: 2 x Cavalry Battalions (Mot), 1 x Pioneer Platoon (Mot)

Motorised Cavalry Battalion (Even #): 2 x Cavalry Companies (Mot).

Motorised Cavalry Battalion (Odd #): 1 x Cavalry Company (Mot) (2 x 60mm Mortars), 1 x Cavalry Weapons Company (Mot) (8 HMG, 4 AAMG, 6 x 37mm PAK Lt AT)

Horse Artillery Regiment: 2 x Horse Artillery Battalions, 1 x AAMG Platoon (4 x AAMG)

Horse Artillery Battalion: 2 x Horse Artillery Companies (8 x 75mm IG each)

In DCCB terms ...

1) This is a 3 Regiment + 1 Artillery Regiment unit, so should have 4 (weak, admittedly) constituent units.

2) Mounted Cavalry Regiment x 2: 800 Cavalry, 8 x 75mm IG, 4 x Lt AA (AAMG)

3) Motorised Cavalry Regiment: 800 Infantry (Romanian), 6 Lt AA (AAMG), 6 Lt AT (37mm PAK), Trucks (??).

4) Horse Artillery Regiment: 200 2nd Rate Infantry (Romanian), 16 x 75mm IG, 4 x Lt AA (AAMG), 6 Lt Tank (Czech CXD/Praga AH4)

Note: The actual manpower strength of a Cavalry (Mounted or Motorised) isn't given in any source I have seen ... however, typically, Cavalry units were considerable less strong than equivalent infantry units, so I am assuming a bayonet strength of 800 per Regiment, even for the Motorised one. The Artillery Regiment is, as with the Mountain Division, spread partly amongst the two Mounted Cavalry Regiments ... but none for the Motorised Cavalry Regiment, as all the Artillery is Horse mobile, and it wouldn't make sense.

How many trucks in the Motorised Cavalry unit? The bare minimum to move it all around in trucks, I would guess ... but I have no figures available.

At some point after 1941, these Brigades are renamed as Divisions.

As with all Romanian units, there seem to have been real problems keeping them anywhere near TO&E strength, and some were destroyed or combined after Stalingrad. Keep this in mind.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

Romanian Cavalry Brigade: Type 2 (Mounted) -- 1st, 7th, 9th

As for the Type 1 (Motorised) except having only 4 Light Tanks.

In DCCB terms,

1) This is a 3 Regiment + 1 Artillery Regiment unit, with four (weak) constituent units

2) Mounted Cavalry Regiments x 3: As for Type 1 Brigade plus 2 x Lt AAMG (Mot), 2 x Lt AT (37mm PAK) (Mot), 2 Lt Tank

3) Horse Artillery Regiment: As for Type 1 Brigade.

Note: There is actually only 4 Light Tanks on the TO&E, but to have three identical Regiments, up to 6 and have 2 per Regiment, unless you wish to complicate things and give one of the Regiments all 6.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

Romanian Corps Level Units

VI Corps: 1 Motorised Infantry Regiment (perhaps use the organisation of the Motorised Cavalry Regiment from the Type 1 Brigade, as no data is provided re TO&E)

Mountain Corps: 3 x Artillery Battalions (52nd, 54th, 57th) (no data, but I'd guess treat as a single Regiment, with 2 Medium and 1 Heavy Battalions (see below) ... these may be the "All Corps" Artillery for the Mountain Corps, the OOB is not clear)

All Corps: Corps Artillery Regiment (AAMG Platoon (4 Lt AA), 1 x Heavy Artillery Battalion (12 x 150mm Howitzer), 1 x Medium Artillery Battalion (12 x 105mm Howitzer), 1 Cavalry Battalion, 1 Engineer Battalion

Phil