Community Modding Discussion

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

Hey Phil, I have renamed the Soviet formations and want to make this availablle to you so as to avoid extra work. If you like I can email you the files so you can continue with the OOB work.

Also, I have a few further ideas about the german Panzer formations:

It seems the standard practise, in theroy, was to have 2 x leichte (light) Company, and 1 x mittlere (medium) company in each Pz Bn so we could use this as a starting point and add seperate Bn for those PzD that had more than 1.

This would give the PzDv some needed flexability with their panzer regiments as now all tanks are in one counter usually with the armoured infantry too. This is tactially inferior to the Soviets and ahistorical.

Troy

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

DCCB proposed MODEL for building blocks for Panzer Divisions. These take into account the Stab or HQ tanks that were not dummy. Bear with me as we are limited to groups of 5 tanks so there may be a bit of fudge...

German Panzer Bn. 'a'
3 x PzIIF (15 tanks)
7 xPzIIIJ (35 tanks)
3 x PzIVG (15 tanks) should be 12 PzIVg and 1 PZIVf @ HQ

German Panzer Bn. 'b'
3 x PzIIF (15 tanks)
7 xPzIIIJ (35 tanks)
2 x PzIVF (10 tanks) Should be 10x PzIVf1 and 1 xPZIVf @ HQ

German Panzer Bn. 'c'
3 x PzIIF (15 tanks)
7 xPzIIIH (35 tanks) generally 1/3 of the Panzer III were the short (kurtz) 5cm Kw.K.38
2 x PzIVF (10 tanks)

The K.St.N for the mittlere panzer kompanie shows that it should be 3 x platoons, 1 x light platoon and hq for a total of 14 x PzIV and 5 PzII BUT this was forbidden by a further order and was limited to 2 x platoons and the light so should we keep the mittlere @ 15 or 10 pzIVs? Having the one Pz BN 'a' with 15 allows for the absorbtion of these extra vehicles.

Your thoughts?

Troy

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

Hey All.

I have worked over the German Panzer Divisions and created the models needed to change all of them. This has resulted in 6 or so unique UNIT types (read battalions). The basic building block is the Panzer Bn - not regiment. As well, the subdivisions are included in this mod. Anyone that wants them let me know and I will put them up on the Ritterkrieg mod thread so we do not have to redo everything.

Troy

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg
Hey Phil, I have renamed the Soviet formations and want to make this availablle to you so as to avoid extra work. If you like I can email you the files so you can continue with the OOB work.

That would be great ... email is at the bottom of my sig, I think, or ...

aspqrz@tpg.com.au

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg
Also, I have a few further ideas about the german Panzer formations:

It seems the standard practise, in theroy, was to have 2 x leichte (light) Company, and 1 x mittlere (medium) company in each Pz Bn so we could use this as a starting point and add seperate Bn for those PzD that had more than 1.

This would give the PzDv some needed flexability with their panzer regiments as now all tanks are in one counter usually with the armoured infantry too. This is tactially inferior to the Soviets and ahistorical.

From my German TO&E thread ... organisation of an Army Panzer Division ...

=====
1st PzGr Regiment: 1800 Infantry, 200 x Engineers, 250 Trucks, 120 x Halftrack, 15x 50mm AT, 10 x 37mm AT, 10 x 75mm LeIG, 5 x 150mm SIG33, 5 x Marder II, 5 x 20mm AA

2nd PzGr Regiment: 1800 Infantry, 200 x Engineers, 350 Trucks, 60 x Halftrack, 15x 50mm AT, 10 x 37mm AT, 10 x 75mm LeIG, 5 x 150mm SIG33, 5 x Marder II, 5 x 20mm AA

3rd Panzer Regiment: 65 x Pz II, 100 x Pz III, 50 x Pz IV

4th Artillery Regiment: 200 2nd Rate Infantry, 25 x 105mm LeFH, 5 x 100mm K8, 10 x 150mm SFH, 150 Trucks
=====

Note: The above is based on a 3 Battalion Armoured Regiment with each Battalion having 2 Light and 1 Medium Tank Coy, which is the standard TO&E, as you say.

I am not sure about where to put the Infantry in Halftracks ... there's one Battalion of it in one of the two PzGr Regiments, and one Company in the other ... maybe it should be placed in the Panzer Regiment?

Which is what I have (for the moment) done with the SS Motorised Divisions (see below) which would more properly reflect its deployment in actuality, wither that or have a 3rd PzGr "Regiment" with the Halftrack Infantry (and, probably the Engineers, which I have really just subsumed as "Infantry" in the PzGr Regiments) ... giving a 5 element Division?

Note: The SS Panzer Regiment (a one Battalion Regiment, as per 19th Pz, but different mix of tanks), as I have currently modded it, has the Halftrack Infantry element (which was a separate Battalion in the SS Divisions, the regular PzGr Regiments were, according to TO&E, only Motorised at this stage) and the additional StuG Battalion that was with the Liebstandarte (but not the Wiking).

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg

DCCB proposed MODEL for building blocks for Panzer Divisions. These take into account the Stab or HQ tanks that were not dummy. Bear with me as we are limited to groups of 5 tanks so there may be a bit of fudge...

German Panzer Bn. 'a'
3 x PzIIF (15 tanks)
7 xPzIIIJ (35 tanks)
3 x PzIVG (15 tanks) should be 12 PzIVg and 1 PZIVf @ HQ

German Panzer Bn. 'b'
3 x PzIIF (15 tanks)
7 xPzIIIJ (35 tanks)
2 x PzIVF (10 tanks) Should be 10x PzIVf1 and 1 xPZIVf @ HQ

German Panzer Bn. 'c'
3 x PzIIF (15 tanks)
7 xPzIIIH (35 tanks) generally 1/3 of the Panzer III were the short (kurtz) 5cm Kw.K.38
2 x PzIVF (10 tanks)

The K.St.N for the mittlere panzer kompanie shows that it should be 3 x platoons, 1 x light platoon and hq for a total of 14 x PzIV and 5 PzII BUT this was forbidden by a further order and was limited to 2 x platoons and the light so should we keep the mittlere @ 15 or 10 pzIVs? Having the one Pz BN 'a' with 15 allows for the absorbtion of these extra vehicles.

Your thoughts?

Troy

I only worked out the Regimental totals ... 65 x Pz II, 100 x Pz III, 50 x Pz IV

Compared to your ... 45 x Pz II,105 x Pz III, 35 x Pz IV

So, there is a discrepancy with the Pz II (+/- 20) and Pz IV (+/- 15) numbers.

Did you count the Pz IIs that were usually in the HQ elements of the Battalion and Companies? ... not all were unarmed command tanks.

I'll double check the sources I have used.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

According to the TO&E for a three Battalion Army Panzer Regiment (23rd Panzer Division) ...

RHQ: 5 x Pz II (x 1) = 5
BHQ: 2 x Pz II (x 3) = 6
CHQ (Lt): 5 x Pz II, 2 x Pz III (x 6) = 30 x Pz II, 12 x Pz III
CHQ (Mdm): 5 x Pz II, 2 x Pz IV (x 3) = 15 x Pz II, 6 x Pz IV
Lt Tank Platoon: 5 x Pz III (x 18) = 90 x Pz III
Mdm Tank Platoon: 4 x Pz IV (x 9) = 36 x Pz IV

Total = 56 x Pz II, 102 x Pz III, 42 Pz IV

OK, so it seems that my arithmetic must have been piss poor (History teacher, see, not Maths teacher [;)] ) ... still, there are discrepancies ...

56 x Pz II (mine) vs 45 (yours) ... +/- 11
102 x Pz III (mine) vs 105 (yours) ... no problems
42 x Pz IV (mine) vs 35 (yours) ... +/- 7

Closer, but still not enough.

My data is Nafziger, out of Niehorster (Handbook of German Military Forces only has 1944 org).

So, based on the assumption that they were all understrength by mid 42 anyway, perhaps go with your figures, assuming you have more reliable sources than mine?

Phil

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

Lots of good stuff.

In reality, there was only 1 bn Shutzen in 251 per regiment plus perhaps 1 komp in the second regiment but sometimes as little as 1 komp! I have all the figures for each Pz div.

As you say, the PzGds in 251s would normally be included with the tanks in any attack so it seems logical to include them with the tanks BUT when we have more than one tank counter it may be difficult to determine which one (as in a 3 Bn Pz regiment).

Pehaps, we could field the following for a PZ Div MODEL:

1 counter each:

I Pz Bn
II Pz Bn
III Pz Bn
I Grenadier Regt (include all you have listed)
II Grenadier Regt (include all you have listed)
ART Regiment (include all you have listed)

Many PzDv would only have 1-2 tanks Bn so it wont be a counter fest.

Troy

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg

Lots of good stuff.

In reality, there was only 1 bn Shutzen in 251 per regiment plus perhaps 1 komp in the second regiment but sometimes as little as 1 komp! I have all the figures for each Pz div.

As you say, the PzGds in 251s would normally be included with the tanks in any attack so it seems logical to include them with the tanks BUT when we have more than one tank counter it may be difficult to determine which one (as in a 3 Bn Pz regiment).

Pehaps, we could field the following for a PZ Div MODEL:

1 counter each:

I Pz Bn
II Pz Bn
III Pz Bn
I Grenadier Regt (include all you have listed)
II Grenadier Regt (include all you have listed)
ART Regiment (include all you have listed)

Many PzDv would only have 1-2 tanks Bn so it wont be a counter fest.

According to the Nafziger TO&Es I am pretty sure that all the ones in DCCB were supposed to have 1 Battalion in the 1st Regt and 1 Company in the 2nd (of course, as we have both noted, TO&Es are theoretical once any unit has been in the field for longer than, oh, a millisecond? [:D]).

I can double check ... but if you have more detailed data, fine, we can go with that ... but did it change during the course of the campaign?

As for fielding 3 x Panzer Battalion instead of a single Regiment of 3 x Battalion ... slippery slope, that. Then you'll have purists (me, to a degree), saying, "Well, if we're modelling tanks at Battalion level, we should model ... infantry and artillery ... likewise!"

You could certainly make a case for having the Halftrack Infantry Battalion as a separate Battalion based on similar, if not identical, logic.

What we could do, since these are mods, after all, is mod both alternatives ... the 3 separate Panzer Battalion counter mod and the single Panzer Regiment (which may be of 1 or of 3 Battalions) mod, and allow the potential players to choose?

Really, its a marginal amount of additional work in the greater scheme of things.

(Of course, I'd still argue for the separate Halftrack Infantry Battalion as well [:D])

Phil

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

missed the flurry of posts...As to the discrep..

I just dont want to creat formations that dont fit history. We have to be carefull that the Panzer Div dont become uberstrong in the game.

PANZER IV: As I said earlier, there was an order to ONLY have 2 zugs of 4 vehicles in the mittlere kp. (instead of 3 zugs of 4 plus the 2 HQ tanks for a total of 15) So thats 8 tks plus 2 in the CHQ (plus maybe 1 in the Staffel) which equals 10-11 per Bn.

IMO, this was to later allow the absorbtion of the 12 Panzer IVGs (filling in the las zug) sent to all panzer divisions in Case Blue.

No panzer Division had more than 32 PzIVs (24th panzer) of all types in July 1942 and most had less than 20.

PANZER II: In June-July, no Pz div had more than 32 (again the 24th - lucky them!) with most having between 10-20. The pionere zug was removed (3tanks) and I lack of vehicles led to the abandonment of the Leichte panzer zup in the Kompanie.

I know the extra Tank Bns would be an issue but not all div will get more than 1.

It does hamstring the German player when the Sov is fielding 50 tank brigades and the german has to work with 150 tank regiments. This is totally a-historical as the Germans enjoyed a much more flexible employment of their Panzer forces.

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg

missed the flurry of posts...As to the discrep..

I just dont want to creat formations that dont fit history. We have to be carefull that the Panzer Div dont become uberstrong in the game.

PANZER IV: As I said earlier, there was an order to ONLY have 2 zugs of 4 vehicles in the mittlere kp. (instead of 3 zugs of 4 plus the 2 HQ tanks for a total of 15) So thats 8 tks plus 2 in the CHQ (plus maybe 1 in the Staffel) which equals 10-11 per Bn.

IMO, this was to later allow the absorbtion of the 12 Panzer IVGs (filling in the las zug) sent to all panzer divisions in Case Blue.

No panzer Division had more than 32 PzIVs (24th panzer) of all types in July 1942 and most had less than 20.

PANZER II: In June-July, no Pz div had more than 32 (again the 24th - lucky them!) with most having between 10-20. The pionere zug was removed (3tanks) and I lack of vehicles led to the abandonment of the Leichte panzer zup in the Kompanie.

I know the extra Tank Bns would be an issue but not all div will get more than 1.

It does hamstring the German player when the Sov is fielding 50 tank brigades and the german has to work with 150 tank regiments. This is totally a-historical as the Germans enjoyed a much more flexible employment of their Panzer forces.

As I said, the problem of whether to mod the actual TO&E organisation/strength or the actual organisation/strength on the ground is probably insoluble ... I think the best is to have the MODEL based on the TO&E, regardless of what may have been the situation with the actual units in the field, and hand mod each Panzer/Panzergrenadier/Motorised Division/Regiment or whatever individually.

I tend to agree, to a degree, with modding the separate battalions ... but that creates its own problems. Unless you are suicidal, the tanks will operate with the infantry ... and, for those Divisions that have 3 Battalion Panzer Regiments (by official TO&E that is all of the Panzer Divisions in the game, except the 19th, which has only one), that presents an operational dilemma of sorts.

(Do you have hard data that the Pz Divisions other than the 19th Panzer actually only had one or two Battalion Panzer Regiments (I know you have different sources to what I am using)? Or is it that you are simply saying that they had the tank strength on hand of only 1 or 2 Battalions?)

3 Panzer Battalions and 2 PzGr Regiments in one attack (if not necessarily one stack)? Or split it 2/1 and 1/1? Or, if you are crazy wasting tanks, 3 Pz, 1 PzGr, 1 PzGr?

Operationally, I think you might find that having the Panzer Battalions + Halftrack Battalion (reinforced with the 1 Company from the 2nd PzGr Regiment and, possibly, the Engineers from the Engineer Battalion in an Assault role?) plus some of the SP guns (AA, IG, AT) from the PzGr Regiments moving, if not attacking, together ... using them to penetrate the gap the 2 x PzGr Regiments and the Artillery punch through the line would make more sense.\

(Mechanised Battalion/Kampfgruppe: 1000 Infantry, 120 Halftracks, 5 Marder II, 5 x SdKfz-138 Bison, 5 x SP 20mm AA, for example, reducing the PzGr Regiments appropriately)

YMMV, of course.

As for not having 3 Battalions in a 3 Battalion Regiment simply because the number of tanks historically available is low ... well, it never seemed to worry the Germans! They'd simply form a Kampfgruppe until things looked either a) better or b) so desperate that even splitting small numbers of tanks was the least bad option [;)]

Phil

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz


As I said, the problem of whether to mod the actual TO&E organisation/strength or the actual organisation/strength on the ground is probably insoluble ... I think the best is to have the MODEL based on the TO&E, regardless of what may have been the situation with the actual units in the field, and hand mod each Panzer/Panzergrenadier/Motorised Division/Regiment or whatever individually.

I tend to agree, to a degree, with modding the separate battalions ... but that creates its own problems. Unless you are suicidal, the tanks will operate with the infantry ... and, for those Divisions that have 3 Battalion Panzer Regiments (by official TO&E that is all of the Panzer Divisions in the game, except the 19th, which has only one), that presents an operational dilemma of sorts.

(Do you have hard data that the Pz Divisions other than the 19th Panzer actually only had one or two Battalion Panzer Regiments (I know you have different sources to what I am using)? Or is it that you are simply saying that they had the tank strength on hand of only 1 or 2 Battalions?)

3 Panzer Battalions and 2 PzGr Regiments in one attack (if not necessarily one stack)? Or split it 2/1 and 1/1? Or, if you are crazy wasting tanks, 3 Pz, 1 PzGr, 1 PzGr?

Operationally, I think you might find that having the Panzer Battalions + Halftrack Battalion (reinforced with the 1 Company from the 2nd PzGr Regiment and, possibly, the Engineers from the Engineer Battalion in an Assault role?) plus some of the SP guns (AA, IG, AT) from the PzGr Regiments moving, if not attacking, together ... using them to penetrate the gap the 2 x PzGr Regiments and the Artillery punch through the line would make more sense.\

(Mechanised Battalion/Kampfgruppe: 1000 Infantry, 120 Halftracks, 5 Marder II, 5 x SdKfz-138 Bison, 5 x SP 20mm AA, for example, reducing the PzGr Regiments appropriately)

YMMV, of course.

As for not having 3 Battalions in a 3 Battalion Regiment simply because the number of tanks historically available is low ... well, it never seemed to worry the Germans! They'd simply form a Kampfgruppe until things looked either a) better or b) so desperate that even splitting small numbers of tanks was the least bad option [;)]

Phil

Hey Phil.

I ran into a graphic issue when I began to model the individual Bn in the Panzer Dv so we may have
to go to a regimental-sized Panzer unit. The spent shrowd causes issues with the Bn symbol on the top [:(]

As to the amount of panzer Bn in the regiments, I have the following very good sources:

Panzertruppen vol 1+2 : Jentz (highly recommended!)
Panzer Divisions: Osprey Battle Orders 32, 35, 38 : Battistelli. (also good books)
Armagedon in Stalingrad Trilogy: Glantz (an MASSIVE read!)

All back up the less that optimal Panzer situation with info regarding each panzer regiments amount of Bn. I think I will edit the regiments individually so as to have them correct for the start of the campaign (in structure, with the correct amount of Bn). I will allow the extra tanks needed to fill up the Bn and let the random strength thing take care of the rest. Its only 20 or so regiments and less than 10 Bn for the motorized dv.

We could add the Panzergrenadiers to the Pz regiment to keep the Infantry regiments mot only if you like. I will need the structure if you have it already (saves me the research!). We could keep the Stug/Panzerjagers with the infantry - no? Also the AA should be split between the different formations too?

Troy

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

Hey Phil,

So far, the Panzer units I have involved in Case Blue or the later defensive battles are:

3rd PD w/3bn
4th PD w/1bn
6th PD w/2bn
7th PD w/2
9th PD w/3bn
11th PD w/3bn
13th PD w/3bn
14th PD w/3bn
16th PD w/3bn
17th PD w/1bn
19th PD w/1bn
22th PD w/2bn
23rd PD w/3bn
24th PD w/3bn
27th a shell with only about 2000 men in total!

Plus the mot and SS formations. I am not sure the LSSAH should be in the mix after August as it was withdrawn to France.

I will model these as regiments with the attached Pzgrenadiers and 251s if you think this is best.

Troy

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

OK a test.

With the 3rd Panzer (6th Panzer Regiment)

Where:

MODEL is the set number in the Units tab.
REAL is the actual number in the real world
RANDOM is the result when you load the scenario

Pz II: MODEL=30 / REAL 25 / RANDOM=10
PzIIIh: MODEL=70 / REAL 66 / RANDOM=65
PzIIIj: MODEL=40 / REAL 40 / RANDOM=30
PzIVf: MODEL=25 / REAL 21 / RANDOM=50
PzIVg: MODEL=15 / REAL 12 / RANDOM=10

One thing, the random factor reduces always so we always need to round up to the next 5 when setting in the model. The random factor is too much of a reduction. Looking at a work around...

Troy

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg

Hey Phil,

So far, the Panzer units I have involved in Case Blue or the later defensive battles are:

3rd PD w/3bn
4th PD w/1bn
6th PD w/2bn
7th PD w/2
9th PD w/3bn
11th PD w/3bn
13th PD w/3bn
14th PD w/3bn
16th PD w/3bn
17th PD w/1bn
19th PD w/1bn
22th PD w/2bn
23rd PD w/3bn
24th PD w/3bn
27th a shell with only about 2000 men in total!

Plus the mot and SS formations. I am not sure the LSSAH should be in the mix after August as it was withdrawn to France.

I will model these as regiments with the attached Pzgrenadiers and 251s if you think this is best.

Good catch. I'd only been looking at the at start Panzer units, not the reinforcements.

I actually have no real problem with modelling them with Battalions, as an option, if a way can be worked around the technical issues of doing so.

I guess the only issue I have is a philosophical one ... if you model individual Panzer Battalions, well, as I've indicated, the way they'll be deployed will rarely be as three separate units for the 3 Battalion units ... and, really, it begs the question of why not 3 Artillery Battalions or all the constituent Infantry Battalions instead of a Regiment as well.

Having a Battalion level game would be quite different! But not necessarily worse, or better. Just different.

As for adding the actual Halftrack mounted infantry into the Panzer Regiment, it would, operationally, be more realistic, I think.

However, I have been thinking about it in light of my discussion about adding Motorcycles etc. to the game elsewhere.

If we add the Halftrack Infantry as Halftracks + Infantry and losses to the Regiment leave insufficient Halftracks for the surviving Infantry, well, it reduces the Regiment to Infantry movement status, which is obvious not what the Germans would have allowed to happen. However, since we really have no real control, except with the relatively blunt instrument of PRIORITY reinforcements, of how a unit is organised as the game plays we have to consider that.

I'm coming to think that the solution is one of the two following suggestions ...

* Give the Tanks a small Load rating, perhaps 0.5 (or 1 if the 0.5 rounds up automagically), which would minimise the problem, but probably not eliminate it.

* Create a Mechanised Infantry sftype which is basically a Halftrack with Infantry aspects ported on to it, representing a combination of both, with the Halftrack reinforcement type. Strictly speaking, this is problematic as the unit represents Vehicles = 5 but Infantry complement = 100, but, since the combination of the two would be the same anyway, it can, I think, be ignored. This would mean losses to Halftracks and Infantry in the Panzer unit would always be 1:1 and it would always retain its Tracked mobility, which is more realistic. The issue with reinforcements shouldn't be a big issue, I have come to realise, as the availability of the Halftrack reinforcements would always be the limiting factor ...

Of course, the *only* use of such Mechanised Infantry would be in the Panzer Regiments of Panzer/Panzergrenadier Divisions in DCCB.

So, yes, with the above things considered, it might be an idea to add the Halftrack infantry to the Panzer units of Pz/PzGr Divisions.

Phil

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg
One thing, the random factor reduces always so we always need to round up to the next 5 when setting in the model. The random factor is too much of a reduction. Looking at a work around...

I'm almost thinking that a Vehicle/Gun = 2 ratio would be better, under the circumstances, than the existing Vehicle/Gun = 5 one.

Of course, all the relevant sftypes and the reinforcment schedule and reinforcement cards would have to be changed as well.

However, would this make the units proportionally more powerful, or does the game system use the x2 or x5 factor as a modifier.

(That is, if the value of a Pz II is, nominally, say, 10, is a 5x unit = 50 while a 2x unit = 20, or does the system treat both as = 50, which would be a "bad thing").

Certainly, a careful allowance for initial hand modding being affected by randomisation should be allowed for.

Of course, as I have noted somewhere else, the difference of 2 days combat on one of the Panzer divisions involved was on the order of 20 Mk IIIs lost! So, maybe, nudging the "historical" figures a little higher to allow for an averaging outcome?

Phil

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg
I ran into a graphic issue when I began to model the individual Bn in the Panzer Dv so we may have
to go to a regimental-sized Panzer unit. The spent shrowd causes issues with the Bn symbol on the top [:(]

As to the amount of panzer Bn in the regiments, I have the following very good sources:

Panzertruppen vol 1+2 : Jentz (highly recommended!)
Panzer Divisions: Osprey Battle Orders 32, 35, 38 : Battistelli. (also good books)
Armagedon in Stalingrad Trilogy: Glantz (an MASSIVE read!)

Books here in Oz are prohibitively expensive, so I don't always get everything that I'd like ... unless I get it through Amazon, which means I don't always get everything I should like, because I don't know it exists or how good it is ...

(Forex, the Glantz trilogy is available locally, at $80 a volume when first released (that was around US$80 at the time) ... Amazon is now $40 or less)

I used to get most of the Ospreys, but my regular bookshop that got them in, new, closed down and it's hard to keep track of all the releases [:)]

Still, I've checked out Amazon re Jentz, and will order both volumes eventually ... and probably the Ospreys right away. Glantz, too ... but, alas, I have lots of books that I have ordered over the years (including his "Kursk") from Amazon that I have on my reading list, way in excess of a couple of hundred [X(][:D]

Even if I order now it will still be two weeks till they arrive ... Oz is the **** end of the universe, after all [8|][:D]

Phil

[Ritterkrieg_slith]

I can send u a scan of the osprey stuff if u like.

Played around a lot today with reinforcements and Random factor issues and I am running into a few roadblocks. It seems that when the game wacks down the units in the beginning, it stays somewhat permanent.

Im beginning to think Pzgrenadiers in the Infantry regiments instead of the armor as this may create a nightmare when waiting to reinforce units as well as the reasons you mentioned.

Troy

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Ritterkrieg

I can send u a scan of the osprey stuff if u like.

Played around a lot today with reinforcements and Random factor issues and I am running into a few roadblocks. It seems that when the game wacks down the units in the beginning, it stays somewhat permanent.

Im beginning to think Pzgrenadiers in the Infantry regiments instead of the armor as this may create a nightmare when waiting to reinforce units as well as the reasons you mentioned.

Troy

Hmm. I'm leaning more towards creating a Panzergrenadier sftype (i.e Halftrack + Infantry combined, with Halftracks as replacements), as this would model things effectively (and, given the small amounts of infantry involved, it shouldn't skew things).

I just ordered the middle Osprey and first Jentz an hour or so ago ... so, 10 working days, in theory and I'll have them [;)] ... the rest after next payday [8D]

Phil

[Hoyt Burrass]

Gentlemen, As I discussed with Ritterkrieg about a week ago, our fall term has just started and my free time (as well as editor savvy) is non-existent. I will, however, contribute my opinion (which you may freely disregard).

Anyhoo, I agree that the German panzers and motorized units need greater operational flexibility, and, in my mind, this could be achieved by breaking the PZ units into bns and adding in separate recon bns (either krad or AC). So the typical PZ div at this time would (IIRC) consist of 2x PZ bns, 2x Mot. Inf rights, an Arty right, and a recon bn. This sounds like the direction you're headed, so just adding in my 0.02

[aspqrz02]

It seems as if it may not be possible to split the Armour Regiments into Battalions ... and, evidently, most units that had Recon elements were having them transformed to Jaeger Battalions (?) around this time.

The problem with this is that, from memory, a lot of the elements so converted were not necessarily motorised.

For example, the TO&E of German Jaeger and Mountain Divisions included a Bicycle Battalion; Motorised, Panzer and PanzerGrenadier Divisions included a Motorcycle Battalion and an Infantry Division has a Recon Battalion of 2 Motorcycle and 1 Bicycle Companies.

In effect, we'd need to have every German Division having a separate Recon Battalion of at least three different movement types.

Not impossible, mind, but is it worth the effort? I am not entirely sure that the results would warrant it, unless you want to go to Battalion level for every unit [&:][X(][&:]

Phil