Val - Judy: To upgrade or not to upgrade

[Atilla60]

That's the question [;)]

PBEM - April 15. 1943

Way back when I made my initial planning for this game, I decided to upgrade from Val to Judy ASAP.
This based on the assumption that doubling the payload, while maintaining the range, would outweigh the downside of the tripled service rating.

However, today I'm not so sure about that anymore.
Having experienced the challenges(?) of keeping Mavis and Emily squadrons operational, made me stand down on the decision, and give it a second thought.

So here I am, still undecided, but leaning towards "stick with the Val".
My concern is: Doubled payload <-> tripled service rating ... hmm.

Therefore I would like to hear you guys opinions (and/or experiences) on Val vs. Judy, in terms of performance vs. maintainability.
Should I upgrade?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Atilla60

That's the question [;)]

PBEM - April 15. 1943

Way back when I made my initial planning for this game, I decided to upgrade from Val to Judy ASAP.
This based on the assumption that doubling the payload, while maintaining the range, would outweigh the downside of the tripled service rating.

However, today I'm not so sure about that anymore.
Having experienced the challenges(?) of keeping Mavis and Emily squadrons operational, made me stand down on the decision, and give it a second thought.

So here I am, still undecided, but leaning towards "stick with the Val".
My concern is: Doubled payload <-> tripled service rating ... hmm.

Therefore I would like to hear you guys opinions (and/or experiences) on Val vs. Judy, in terms of performance vs. maintainability.
Should I upgrade?

Yes.

While it's true that the maintenance headaches of the D4Y1 and D4Y2 are annoyances, the D4Y3 IIRC drops back to service rating of 1. In the meantime, you get a DB that is quite superior performance-wise to the D3 series.

Vals were approaching obsolescence when the war broke out historically. You don't want to limit your options by keeping these in service too long.

[crsutton]

In a nutshell, the 250 kg bomb poses little threat to any Allied capital ship. With Allied damage control-even Allied carriers can shrug them off. So it is a no brainer.

[John 3rd]

JUDY! Can you say BIG BOMB? Yaaaaa. I thought could...
[:'(]

[Dora09]

Judy all the way!

Actually the D4Y series is one of my favorites in the game. The high srvc rating doesn't seem to be that big of a draw back on CVs (I think I use the B5/B6Ns to naval search so that the Judys are only flying when they attack).

Also, I have found that they make exceptional kamikazes later on.

[SqzMyLemon]

Judy for me too. At that stage of the war I'd want every bomb to count. 500kg all the way.

[ny59giants]

I'm six months ahead (late Oct 43) and I don't think I have a single DB group still with a Val at sea or land based. All have gone to Judy - increased range and payload.

[SuluSea]

There's no question about getting all the D4Y1's you can and eliminate the D3A1/2's For my money the Judy beats it hands down with the only drawback as I see it being service rating but carrier engagements are usually a one day affair and one side is limping away.

[SuluSea]

I compared it to the D3A1 because I believe it's the better of the two Val types.

The only reason I have any factories researching the D3A2 at all is to change it to the D5Y1 as soon as they repair.
The D5Y1 is scheduled to make an appearence 11/45 with two factories researching from around 6/42 you can really expedite the airframe at a relatively modest price .

I attached an image for comparison.

[FatR]

Even initially, high SR is not that much of a big deal on carriers. And for shore operations divebombers tend to lack range, until you get A7M, and you don't have that many land-based units of them in 1943, and most those are better dedicated to pilot training duties fulltime (to replenish carrier losses and prepare for later, when you do get A7M with its high range). In short, there is not a single real reason to keep D3A (except on training duty), and you need those 500-kg bombs to sink stuff. Even relatively fragile CVEs in my experience can take 2-4 250-kg ones and easily survive. And speed of D4Y also might very important for bombers, because, AFAIK, higher speed means that CAP gets less firing passes at your planes (but as D4Y will mostly fly from carriers with slower B6N, not as important as it could be). So, build D4Y.

[Crackaces]

This backs crsutton .. 3 250 kg bomb hits on the Big E .. she shrugs it off and will spend at most 30 days in the pen ...the IJ pilots encouter a practice in futility rather than sinking a USN CV .. Judy's would have at least cripped the BIG E for sure ..

Morning Air attack on TF, near Baker Island at 153,136

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
D3A1 Val x 22

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 5 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 3, on fire
DD Farragut

[Atilla60]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Lots of good stuff there.

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I compared it to the D3A1 because I believe it's the better of the two Val types.

The only reason I have any factories researching the D3A2 at all is to change it to the D5Y1 as soon as they repair.
The D5Y1 is scheduled to make an appearence 11/45 with two factories researching from around 6/42 you can really expedite the airframe at a relatively modest price .

I attached an image for comparison.

As I've always said, you learn something new every day on this forum.
I've always preferred using the D3A1 over the D3A2, simply because the range in the A2 is one hex less.
Not that important for land based aircraft, but of absolutely vital importance at sea. Range is everything, in my opinion.

As for the D5Y1, you have got to love that 800kg payload[;)]
Although it does have an Achilles heel. Its not CV capable??[:(]

[SuluSea]

Hi Empire, the D4Y4 compares favorably to the D5Y1 and depending on the research it could possibly be on the map in early '44 because it's at the end of the Judy upgrade path.

[d0mbo]

Imagine DB's with 800KG bombs on your carriers*! Oh it's good to be a JFB
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*slight drawback: your CV's most likely are sunk by this date.......
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[Shark7]

Well all other things set aside, the Judy is the best of the lot due to its speed and the way this game handles air combat with the emphasis on airspeed.

Speed is life.

[Empire101]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Hi Empire, the D4Y4 compares favorably to the D5Y1 and depending on the research it could possibly be on the map in early '44 because it's at the end of the Judy upgrade path.

Man, that Judy sure packs a punch[X(]

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

This backs crsutton .. 3 250 kg bomb hits on the Big E .. she shrugs it off and will spend at most 30 days in the pen ...the IJ pilots encouter a practice in futility rather than sinking a USN CV .. Judy's would have at least cripped the BIG E for sure ..

THREE? I had recently, in IRONMAN game, my US CV got THIRTEEN 250kg bombs, and was still able to launch strikes!

[koniu]

Judy is what reasonable Jap player want to have.

Rememberer `43 it will be more difficult everyday.

Better speed giving more chances to Judy to survive enemy CAP phase. Few planes that survive meeting with enemy fighters need give as many damage as possible t enemy and 500kg bomb will do that.

For me Judy is plane from "must have" category.

[PaxMondo]

Judy.  SR only matters after a few days of op's.  MOST CV battles are decided on the first day.  Longer range and bigger bomb matter, SR is minor point.

PS: as pointed out above, the Val was obsolete in '41. Think Stuka ... too old, too slow, too short legged, and too little bomb.