Soviet Infantry Brigades + Corps Buildout Schedule

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


My developing theory for 42 is that I will use brigades as a 1-2 line front with strong divisions forming the third line. I have a hard time seeing any panzer offensive breaking that wide open; I don't really see the advantage of eliminating counters unless you absolutely have to. In my current situation of course I am blessed with a massive army even in 41 - it would be different if I didn't have that to play with

That's just a chewy toy for the Germans I'm afraid.

Rifle brigades suck. They will not stop or even seriously slow down any real opposition. Their best use -- if you have to have them at all, and I get rid of all them ASAP -- is exactly the opposite of your proposed doctrine -- place them in the rear in reserve. They have a better chance to activate than divisions. But I say just replace them with divisions and be done with them. They're junk.

Thanks - given that 95% of my games have ended by or during the blizzard, I probably need an intervention on some of my theories regarding '42 and beyond. Like the idea of simply merging all the Rifle Brigades into divisions. Less annoying counters to move around at a minimum. I'll use them to maintain the rear area forts until I can merge.

[bigbaba]

i go with flav here. you need rifle corps in 42 to hold extremly important areas OR to reopen pockets what is also important.

therefore make them as strong as possible to overcome their weakness in 42.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
i go with flav here. you need rifle corps in 42 to hold extremly important areas OR to reopen pockets what is also important.

Well sure, I agree as well. But half a dozen rifle corps is hardly adequate for this.

[Flaviusx]

A half dozen corps is enough to make Moscow a tough nut to crack. This is just about the only place on the map I feel compelled to use them for defensive purposes in 1942. (A good case can also be made for dropping them on Sevastopol and the Kerch Straights, but that only works so long as you hold Rostov. Once the Axis gets past that, you need to start looking at the Terek River and the mountains and will need divisions for this line, not corps.)

I'm not really sold on flipping over corps just to bust open a pocket. This strikes me as throwing good money after bad. (Rifle corps used in this fashion have a distressing tendency of winding up in pockets themselves after temporarily relieving them. They are like catnip for the German and a smart German player will contrive to herd them into a pocket as they can't fade back after being used for an attack most of the time. Not enough movement.)

And sometimes you just have to kiss a pocket goodbye, period and look to reestablish the defense in a more secure area further to the rear rather than sending more boys into a kessel.

I find that rifle divisions stiffened with cav and tank corps is enough to get the job done most of the time. Then your mobile units rush back to the rear at the end of your turn limiting their exposure to pocketing and making them available to bust pockets in turn.

[gingerbread]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

As it is now, Guard Corps (42 a & b kind) have a smaller TOE than the corresponding regular have.

Guards Corps have roughly 20-25% smaller TOE (good or bad depending on your pool situation). I always leave them on refit and behind the line, so getting them to 'oversize' to 125% is common in my experience.

I don't understand where the 50% better morale comes from - it's NM 55 vs. NM 45 during '42 at least.

After the blizzard my units that have achieved Guards tend to be closer to 60 morale, and the average of those that have not closer to 40. When the blizzard winds down I put the Guards on digging duty in the rear (10+ hexes from the front line) to refit, train exp. and build morale (if possible).
The way that morale and exp. factor into combat power puts the Guards rifle corps at a distinct advantage, irrespective of official TOE, in my experience.

Infantry Brigades are best used as ½ division building blocks.

'Best' is entirely situational.
I'm merely giving the pros and cons of each approach. If you think it is always 'best' to have a smaller army, or pay hundreds more AP to have the same size army your definition of 'best' may differ from another player (particularly in another circumstance).

I think the Corps sizes are 5 brigades for regular and 4 for Guards.

I'd do the opposite: use the Guards and the divisions created by combining brigades to hold while the old regular divisions rotate back (not all at the same time) to get a morale of 50. They can train to 50 even if the NM is 45 and it's automatic up to 50 (10 hexes applies), while getting the 51+ morale Guards to increase will take a roll.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to have Guards but even at 60 they are not good enough to get special treatment. They might be the best there are for a particular job/assignment like holding some key hexes, but that's looking at it from the jobs side and not from the units. If fact I think it's a blessing that the Soviets do not have maximise the use of some elite panzer divisions equivalents - allows me to focus on the larger picture.

When it's time to build Corps, I don't mind using a brigade as one component, but I will not save them just to be able to. Not enough men to do that.

[turtlefang]

Regarding Infantry Bg: I usually assign 8 infantry divisions and 2 Inf Bg per Soviet army. I use the 2 bgs to relieve the divisions for short periods of time in the line to refit, sometimes add a little extra to the defense, and guard the HQ.

For unassigned BGs, petty much use them to maintain or improve forts, especially near cities. I will covert a few to divisions but prefer to wait unit 43 to covert 2 div+1 bg to corps.

42 corps - usually will covert all my gds divisions and one infantry bg to a corps. I transfer the divisions to a central army or front first, use this to act as a strategic reserve, build moral, and refit to gain strength. My first game taught me not to convert regular divisions to corps in 42 - big mistake on my part.

I did find out that I needed to create a LOT more tank corp in 42 that I did in my first game - and create some mot/mech bgs to convert to mech corp in 43. I now try and convert most of tank bgs to tank corps in 42 - this provides the mobility that the Soviets lack and a decent counter punch to the Germans if an opportunity comes up. The tank bgs that I don't convert I disband. This requires a balancing act between trucks, supplies, and admin points. But I have found its a better deal than making infantry corps in 42.

[Seminole]

I did find out that I needed to create a LOT more tank corp in 42 that I did in my first game - and create some mot/mech bgs to convert to mech corp in 43.

Flavius has expressed concerns about creating motor pool shortages by getting carried away creating tank/mech corps.
I just don't have sufficient late game experience to judge the sweet spot on this (and obviously it depends on the wear and tear you put on your motor pool with operations anyway).

How many trucks does a tank/mech corps cost compared to the existing 3 tank bde?

[Flaviusx]

There's enough trucks to build and maintain a couple of dozen tank corps in 42. The real crunch comes if you try to go beyond that and especially if you try to make mech corps. Mech corps are the real truck hogs, they need almost twice as many trucks as tank corps and they are frankly not twice as good. Those builds probably should be pushed to 1943.

[hfarrish]

Since this has turned into a pretty great thread on both the subject of brigades and the rollout/buildout of corps, have retitled it to reflect the actual content.

Many thanks to everyone participating.

[turtlefang]

I will take Flav word on it for how many trucks a mech corps takes versus a tank corps - I'm sure he's right and I just remember its a lot. I like to make six or so mech/mot bgs in Nov 42 or so that they have some time to gain experience and moral before 43 - then I can have a couple of decent mech corp when the truck situation improves in 43.

I've found I can build 24 to 30 tank corps in 42 and do ok BUT you have to watch the truck situation and adjust to that. If its going well, head to the top end, if poorly, then fewer. Trucks are the ban of my Soviet existence.

In January, 1943, I try to have 500 admin points. At that time, the cost to build infantry corps falls to 10 pts per corps and I want to build 50 of the things on first turn of January (ok, so its a hope and a plan). I usually try to have two divisions and a bg stack together in each spot of I want one built, adjust for new Gd divisions as I prefer Gd corps.

43 is the year to get artillery divisions - I used to target 15 or so but given the advice of this group have uped it to 30-40; and mech corps, plus whatever else I can squeeze in in regards to support units. 43 is a hard year on admin points even as trucks situation starts getting better.

[randallw]

My tank corps in June 1942 ( early version corps that will change TOE fairly soon ) use 1031 vehicles ( trucks ).

[bigbaba]

you are right about rifle corps and risking to lose them in a "following pocket".

i think i will go for more tank corps in 1942. they can open pockets and retreat in safety.

[lycortas]

Another thing i don't agree with; the '42 "crap" rifle corps has 9-10 CV easy.... the basic '42 tank corps has 3 CV. I can't break many pockets with that, i like 15-18 rifle corps in '42.

Mike

[Flaviusx]

I can build rifle corps that are double digit CV in 1942, sure...but only because they are way overstrength. They are not punching at their true TOE weight. They're acting like a 1943 rifle corps, at least until a few combats knocks off the padding.

A genuine, non roid raging, pre October 1942 rifle corps at true TOE strength with 20,000 or less men is not impressive. 7ish CV. I'd rather have the 3 rifle divisions at that point. (Or even the two rifle divisions and brigade.)

A post July tank corps is more like 6-7 CV with attachments. By autumn you can start seeing double digit CV tank corps, if you feed them a few wins and get them trained up. This is more than good enough to cause a rumpus somewhere. The ones in April are fairly weak due to the 42a TOE, but they'll go up from there naturally relatively fast, whereas with rifle corps you are working against the grain trying to make them act like a real 43 corps until almost the end of the year. The first real ToE for them doesn't hit until October.

[Seminole]

7ish CV. I'd rather have the 3 rifle divisions at that point. (Or even the two rifle divisions and brigade.)

But you can't put 9 units in a hex...

A post July tank corps is more like 6-7 CV with attachments.

Won't a rifle corps see the same CV improvement, apples to apples?

[lycortas]

And i have never seen a '42 tank corps with double digit strength... 7 is the highest i created, with two attachments.

[Flaviusx]

Gotta train 'em up and feed 'em wins. They won't be double digit freshly raised. But they can get there by year's end solely on the basis of the July TOE.

A rifle corps won't see anything like this dramatic improvement until almost 1943. It will tend to go down in strength as a result of combats due to the TOE. Only after October does this turn around. You are also paying 20 APs for it at this stage and getting a rather slow unit.

Mobility matters.

So far as mass goes...mass is what you need to crack fort lines, not so much for counterattacking the bleeding edge of a panzer advance. Rifle divisions stiffened with mobile units are perfectly capable of hitting unfortified panzers in the open, unless they are in 3 unit stacks, and sometimes even then.