Possible BabesLite Errata

[Hotschi]

Due to the extensive"slot-shifting" of ships in BabesLite, some ships now have either no air groups attached, or the wrong (compared to stock) ones. "Wrong" might be a stretch, since I have no clue whether the stock AG names are actually correct. This might be as designed - especially for late war cruisers - or might be errors, I don't know.

Maybe this is not too big a problem in PBEM, but against the (US) AI, missing air groups (not necessarily wrong ones, as the composition is basically the same) surely are.

Here's what I've found so far (number in brackets is the BabesLite slot):

CVE Commencement Bay (5026) has no air group - stock it's 2236 and 2237
CVE Block Island (5030) no air group - stock 2244 and 2245
CVE Gilbert Island (5027) no air group - stock 2238 and 2239
CVE Cape Gloucester (5028) no air group - stock 2240 and 2241
CVE Vella Gulf (5029) no air group - stock 2242 and 2243

All eight additional Commencement Bay Class CVE's (5031 to 5038) appear without any air groups at all.

CB Alaska (3186) no air group - stock 2175
CB Guam (3210) no air group - stock 2176

CA Columbus (3208) and CA Oregon City (3209) now occupy the CB's slots - thus they got their air groups as well. Re-attaching the CB's air groups will leave these two cruisers... without any air group. Wow. I don't miss a thing... [:D]

CA Helena II (5041), Bremerton (5042), Fall River (5043), Macon (5044) and Los Angeles (5045) all appear without air groups. Same with a couple late-war CL's - Little Rock (3298), Providence (3299), Portsmouth (3300) and Fargo (3301).

The following cruisers either have none - or the wrong (as compared to stock) - air group;

Concord (3268) - no air group - stock 2127
St. Louis (3274) - wrong air group - stock 2132
Helena (3275) - none - stock 2133
Boise (3277) - wrong - stock 2135
Honolulu (3276) - wrong - stock 2136
Cleveland (3280) - wrong - stock 2160
Denver (3281) - wrong - stock 2163
Montpellier (3282) - none - stock 2162
Santa Fe (3283) - wrong - stock 2165
Miami (3285) - wrong - stock 2178
Pasadena (3286) - wrong - stock 2179
Biloxi (3287) - wrong - stock 2168
Wilkes-Barre (3290) - wrong - stock 2180
Vicksburg (3291) - wrong - stock 2181
Springfield (3292) - wrong - stock 2183
Duluth (3293) - wrong - stock 2184
Topeka (3294) - wrong - stock 2185
Oklahoma City (3295) - wrong - stock 2186
Amsterdam (3296) - wrong - stock 2189
Dayton (3297) - wrong - stock 2188

That's it I think. I haven't looked into IJN stuff, not even whether there are slot changes at all. These are all rev14, but it was there in rev11 also.

Just to be on the safe side, this is no attempt at a "gotcha" or a attempt at being a wise-crack "who-knows-it-all-and-you-all-are-just-dumb" or anything the like, I just think there might be something wrong and hope it helps when posting it.

Haven't looked into BigBabes though - this is all BabesLite.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Good catch! Similar issue in DBB. Also concerns certain RN ships (QE, Revenge, Renown, Belfast, Norfolk et al.) as well as French Richelieu and Duguay Trouin and IJN Izumo - lacking air groups.

Furthermore, I have found a couple of air groups which are flagged as shipboard, but have no ships assigned: 2236 - 2245 (in DBB).

[US87891]

Babes isn't concerned with stock. There is no right or wrong. And besides the cruiser group names are fake anyway, so you get 2 Seaguls, in place of ... 2 Seaguls.

Commencement Bay Class, ok. we will port over the BigBabes airgroups for them. You will have to use waht you get.[;)] They come from a collaboration of Don Bowen, Tom Elliot (timtom) and John (JWE) that puts the right planes on the right ships for the ground attack mission they were intended to service. Source is Tom Elliot (and Don Bowen) from US records.

The 2236-2245 groups are vestiges of the Commencement bay stuff from stock. They should be (and will be) deleted.

Yes, some ships in Babes don't have airgroups. But who really cares? This is a monster, multi yer game where it just doesn't matter if some ship doesn't have a seaplane at some point in time.

My thoughts as well as the thoughts of the game designers.

Matt

[Don Bowen]

Many CVE historically did not have air groups. Some were training carriers, many were aircraft ferries.

The Commencement Bay class air groups are a real problem because the war ended before they were fleshed out. At least 8 of them were to have Marine air groups aboard for close support of marine units during invasions. Only four of these were assigned prior to end of the war. Others were to have standard navy air groups. Commencement Bay hereself did not have an air group. She was used as a training carrier to work up airgroups for other units of the class.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: US87891

And besides the cruiser group names are fake anyway

[mock disgust]

WHAT?!?!? [&:] [&:] [&:]

Ok, that's it - I'm going to delete this game which is called the "most realistic and engrossing WWII Pacific theatre game available"!!!

[/mock disgust]

[;)]

Fully agree that the one floatplane which is missing from Izumo and a few more planes here and there won't make much difference. But hey, there is this nice&easy editor and adding more fake cruiser groups isn't a biggy, so when I find the time...

[US87891]

Understand now why John will never come back. No matter what I agreed to to, I will never come back either.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Er - missed the smilie "[;)]"? That wasn't meant to be taken seriously...

[Hotschi]

It's always good to bear in mind that... there's 2 kinds of criticism, one which is just bashing without substance... and one which is also called constructive criticism - and I think my post above is clear enough and cautiously formulated enough to fall - as intended - into the 2nd category.

It's also always good to remember that... not everyone, who plays WitP-AE or any of it's mods, or starts looking into the editor, is a serviceman or ex-serviceman of whatever army or navy of whatever nationality, is a professional historian or naval-historian, or a engineer in shipbuilding etc. etc., and thus the background knowledge of certain aspects of the Pacific War will be very varied.

Thank you, Don, for providing an answer with which someone like me, who's neither a (ex)-serviceman nor historian or engineer, can work with, as it explains certain design decisions.

Matt, I have edited my first post to show some sentences in bold.

This part of your reply...

But who really cares? This is a monster, multi yer game where it just doesn't matter if some ship doesn't have a seaplane at some point in time.

...is interesting.

On the one hand, the DaBabes/BabesLite team is putting many many work hours into improving/enhancing WitP, adding many ships and whatnot to the OOB, tweaks devices and whatnot, all to improve realism. And on the other hand, when someone, who is not part of the team but merely a interested user, points out a error (a couple cruisers losing their search planes), he gets - at least this time - a "But who really cares" as answer.

Yes, this is a monster, with thousands of entry in the database, and thus it's bound to also contain errors, that's just natural. Only he who works can make errors.

[LargeSlowTarget]

I feel I have to edit my post above as well. Apologies for my twisted attempt at humor...

[US87891]

Sorry. It's been a bad week for funerals.

I'll restrict myself to just passing on things John wants to say and not try to do anything myself. He's the only one who keeps this straight in his head anyway.

Again. Sorry.

[Hotschi]

It is easy to forget that everyone here has a private life, far away from all this here - but things happen which of course also affect, even unconciously, the way we all post some times.

I am very sorry to hear that you have had a bad week, even more sorry to learn the reason for your bad week.

And I want to express my sincere condolescences.

[witpqs]

Written communication has always been awful, what with the complete lack of facial expressions, tone of voice, inflections, and on and on. Written communications across the Internet with people we've never met face to face, and usually utterly and totally lacking in context of what is going on both around that person and in that person's mind, is orders of magnitude less effective. Light-hearted frisky comments meant in the most friendly vein of sitting next to one's good friend with a beer in front of each, sometimes they just don't hit the target the same way.

Everybody forgive yourself and start over. [:)]

[US87891]

Thank you Hotschi, and John, and all of you. Here's John's email to me on this.

If ya’ll would, please cut Matt some slack. He’s in a very introspective place, just now. Matt isn’t up on the Internet sensitivity codes (yeah, right, as if I am) so please be somewhat understanding and kind. His friends will love him and keep him, and lift him up through these trying times.

Commencement Bay class is one of Don Bowen’s Babies, and the airgroup story is as Don says. Thomas Elliot (timtom) came up with USN/USMC squadron assignment docs for the whole war period, and sometime after and thus, we got the actual squadron (and aircraft) assignments for the Commencement Bay class.

Historically, only Gilbert Islands, Cape Gloucester, Vella Gulf, Block Island, Salerno Bay, and Puget Sound, embarked an operational airgroup. Commencement Bay was a training carrier; Kula Gulf, Sibony, Bairoko, and Saidor had no identified airgroups and were used as plane shuttles and for other duty. Rendova, and Badoeng Strait had squadrons identified to them for operational assignment but the war ended before these were finalized. These are all in BigBabes.

Can update BabesLite with these. No big deal. The air groups LST found that are flagged as shipboard, but have no ships assigned: 2236 - 2245 (in DBB) are replenishment groups that belonged to Commencement Bay ships in stock. They don’t show up anywhere, so it doesn’t hurt to leave them, but if you want things clean, it’s probably reasonable to just delete them. The class will get their respective MCVG-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 squadrons, so nothing is lost.

If you don’t want to delete these replenishment groups, you could assign them to Kula Gulf, Sibony, Bairoko, and Saidor, in the AirGroup Location data slot; those ships were used as a/c transports irl anyway.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Well said, witqs and Hotschi. I must add that English is not my mother language and thus not only I make spelling and grammar mistakes but also have not mastered the finer points of usage. I plead guilty and again want to express my apologies as well as my condolescences to Matt.

[US87891]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Well said, witqs and Hotschi. I must add that English is not my mother language and thus not only I make spelling and grammar mistakes but also have not mastered the finer points of usage. I plead guilty and again want to express my apologies as well as my condolescences to Matt.

John likes you and I like you too. You are a nice guy, and I am sorry if I pissed you off.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: US87891

Sorry. It's been a bad week for funerals.

I'll restrict myself to just passing on things John wants to say and not try to do anything myself. He's the only one who keeps this straight in his head anyway.

Again. Sorry.

Please don't restrict yourself, I find value in your information/posts.

Buck

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

ORIGINAL: US87891

Sorry. It's been a bad week for funerals.

I'll restrict myself to just passing on things John wants to say and not try to do anything myself. He's the only one who keeps this straight in his head anyway.

Again. Sorry.

Please don't restrict yourself, I find value in your information/posts.
Buck

Buck is spot on.

And:

JWE lives!!! (Hi John!)

Guys - my sincere respect to all of you for good manners - the only way folks who don't really know each other can communicate and get along. I seriously value what you have to say -

Minnow Mac

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: US87891
I am sorry if I pissed you off.

Not at all - no worries!