Upgrade Paths - wierdness on CV

[Mr.Frag]

Just a little bit of detail for those interested.

Sending general ships back to Pearl:

0.5in Brownings M2 MG -> 20mm Oerlikon AA Gun
1.1in Mk 1 AA Gun -> 40mm Bofors AA Gun

If the ship already has either the 20mm or 40mm, the quantity is doubled. If it is doubled on the first trip back because the gun type is already a 20mm or 40mm, that particular gun does not change on the second trip back. (ie: it only doubles once)

CV's are custom coded, coming back with both gun upgrades AND more guns.

I tracked a DD (Phelps) through 2 upgrades:

AA value of 220 -> 250 -> 500 (with better DC's on last trip)

I tracked a CA (Portland) through 2 upgrades:

AA value of 932 -> 1112 -> 1432

I tracked a CV (Lexington)

AA value of 2078 -> 2208 -> 1948

Strangely enough, the Lexington comes back WORSE on the second upgrade, not better, loosing a lot of 40mm Bofors for a few 20mm's being added.

The moral of the story seems to be send everything BUT your carriers back for refits which is rather strange ... It could be that the Lexington happens to be a bug.

Obviously stocking a TF with 8 destroyers with 500 AA vs 220 AA (4000 vs 1760) is quite a difference in AA defense. Makes one think hard about just automatically sending everything back twice as the USA player right from the very start, since you will get them all back anyways coupled with you having plenty of time to outwait Japan ...

[Yamamoto]

So what's the Japanese upgrade path? Since AA type doesn't change (I assume) do they just get the doubling of AA weapons on their first trip back?

Yamamoto

[Mr.Frag]

Japan gets nothing but garbage back, with such trivial upgrades that it is hardly worth the effort. Even Japan's BB upgrades still don't hold a candle to USA CA's forget about BB's.

As Japan, use 'em as you get 'em, don't worry about upgrades. The USA on the other hand gets SUBSTANTIAL improvements for their investment in time, coupled with the obvious likelyhood of getting the ships back

[crsutton]

Yes, as soon as I get steady reinforcments, I start rotating the allied ships that are in theater back. Makes a big difference in surviving big air attacks.

The American 1.1 inch AA gun was a poor design. It lacked killing firepower and had a tendency to overheat. It was prone to cooking off rounds in the chamber and proved as much a danger to the crew as to enemy aircraft. ( I am writing from memory here, so don't hesitate to correct me).

Allied AA underwent tremendous techological and firepower advances during the war to the point where conventional dive bombers and torpedeo bombers were simply not able to penetrate allied AA screens. By late war, Allied AA was the big killer of Japanese airplanes. In fact the need and desire for AA armament begin to effect surface ship design and forward thinking people in the navy realized that after 1944, the real purpose for larger surface ships was to protect the carriers. The fast BBs proved to be deadly carrier escorts.

One example is the Cleveland class CL which featured one less turret and three fewer six inch guns than the Brooklyn class CLs. This would seem like a step back, but the Cleveland class ship was favored because it could carry more 40mm guns and I belive the six inch guns on the Clevlands could fire at a higher elevation thus making them more suitable for AA defense.

Japanese industry was just incapable of refining AA defenses much during the war and was not able to produce AA guns in numbers enough to allow major upgrading of her ships. Combine this with the appearance of radar controlled fire and the addition of proximity fuses for the allies and there is no competition.

UV reflects this well by allowing refitting of ships and upgrading of AA armament. Another fine point of this game.

[Mr.Frag]

After watching what happens to USA ships sent back twice, one really has to wonder if you are not better off completely sitting back passively for the first 3-4 months just rotating ships in and out.

Since you can completely rotate out and have your starting fleet back before the Enterprise and Hornet show up on the scene one needs to think about it, couple this with the fact that you will actually have planes on the Lexington and Yorktown when they come back (based on F4F-4's)

You end up with TF's that have in excess of 15000 AA rating yet still don't exceed 10 ships.

In general, USA DD's have better AA then Japan BB's after the second trip to Pearl for refit.

Even the large transports come out looking quite nicely, with better AA then almost all Japan DD/CL/CA's.

Since to win the game, USA only needs to kick Japan out of the auto-win locations by 1943, spending the first 3 months rotating ships twice costs really nothing.

Since most Japan planes are made of tissue paper, this mega AA boost pretty much reduces CAP requirements to a minimal level, even probably offsetting the higher aircraft rates in scenario 19.

[XPav]

Lexington is strange. Ron posted a detailed explanation of the upgrade code a week or so ago in response to my query about its weapons.

[Mr.Frag]

Ron posted a detailed explanation of the upgrade code a week or so ago in response to my query about its weapons.

I read Ron's post, where it is mentioned that Japan gets similar kinds of upgrades, but in the interests of determining effectiveness of such tactics I have been running a Head-to-Head game and simply sending every ship back again and again.

Japan has yet to get any of these upgrades at all. I posted a query in the bugs section about it so I am a bit confused. I understand that certain ships get special attention, but I really don't understand why Lex comes back weaker after the second upgrade. Doesn't make much sense unless the first upgrade is a mistake, giving Lex too much. I have no understanding why Japan is getting nothing in the way of upgrades.

This is a clean patched 2.20 running scenario 17, so I wonder if something got broken in one of the patches, or it is date based for Japan. The USA ships get their upgrades right from the very start, so I figured Japan would be the same...

Obviously, it is rather time consuming to test this out, so I am only into September of 42 so far, but thats far enough to have most of the major ships in play.

[m0ngoose]

I was thinking that it might be nice to have a flag or asterisk or desgination change on ships that have seen a refit.

It is labor intensive to track all the ships you sent back once or twice vs. 1st timers sneaking in with the return group. You basically end up making a database if you really want to track them...or else have a really good memory.

On the other hand, if I knew the exact upgrades I could cycle through the ships and see which ones had been sent back already.

Maybe on the ship info screen an extra line of text saying something to the effect of "ASW refit" or "AA refit Mod 2" or some such.

my $.02

[Knavey]

Here is a question about upgrades.

Lets say you do just what was suggested and send everything back immeadiately, and upon its return send it back again.

Once it gets back again, it should be done with all of its upgrades. Now if you did this starting immeadiately in the game, it would be mid 43 when you are getting these ships back.

Were all of the second refit ammo loadouts and radar even in service in mid 43?

Shouldn't you only be able to get a '44 weapons loadout if you send the ship back in '44?

Does anyone know if this is what happens?

Assume upgrade path 1 is through 42.
Assume upgrade path 2 is through 44.

1. Send ship back for repairs.
2. If ship is damaged, fix damage.
3. If ship never upgraded, add upgrade 1. If year is 44 or greater add upgrade 2.
4. If ship has upgrade 1, verify year is 44 or greater then add upgrade 2. Else send ship back.

Is this the way it works or is it just 1st rotation upgrade 1. Second rotation upgrade 2.

[Knavey]

Originally posted by m0ngoose
I was thinking that it might be nice to have a flag or asterisk or desgination change on ships that have seen a refit.

It is labor intensive to track all the ships you sent back once or twice vs. 1st timers sneaking in with the return group. You basically end up making a database if you really want to track them...or else have a really good memory.

On the other hand, if I knew the exact upgrades I could cycle through the ships and see which ones had been sent back already.

Maybe on the ship info screen an extra line of text saying something to the effect of "ASW refit" or "AA refit Mod 2" or some such.

my $.02

I agree with Mongoose. Give us something that delineates between the upgraded ship (version 1 and 2) and the ones that are not.

[Hoplosternum]

When abouts do these upgrades take place. As the allies I tend to send back even moderately damaged ships (10-20 Sys damage). I see them in Pearl - or rather with x - days till pearl but apart from replacing any missing turrets do not seem to have any extra AA guns. When do the new armaments show up? Or am I just not looking hard enough

[Mr.Frag]

If you go down the path and send them back right from day one, you will get them all back before you get your next batch of CV's (Enterprise, etc). It takes 19 days for them to cycle back into Pearl, and since you have no ships, they get shipped back to you almost immediately.

Now, if you factor random vs fixed into the mix, who really knows when or if you will ever see them again ...

I agree it would be REALLY nice to know via some visual marker if the ship has been upgraded, and how many times ... Tracking the 200 odd ships that need to be shipped back and forth is a nightmare to say the least.

I am still quite confused over Japan upgrades, as I have yet to see anything apart from a DC get changed (and I'm really not positive that it changed). If this is the way it is supposed to be, thats fine, but it would be very nice to have some confirmation on this...from someone in the know...

Add to this complication that ships that appear on the scene later already appear to have upgrade number one (removal of 1.1 & .50 -> 40mm & 20mm). Do these ships jump to stage two and only need to be sent once, or do they get double upgraded too?

It is so rare to play a wargame with such vague rules.

(Hop, you don't see the change until the ship arrives back to you, so are tough to spot unless you pull up the database panel to see what the original class has.)

[Hoplosternum]

Mr Frag - Cheers This had always puzzled me.

[denisonh]

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
If you go down the path and send them back right from day one, you will get them all back before you get your next batch of CV's (Enterprise, etc). It takes 19 days for them to cycle back into Pearl, and since you have no ships, they get shipped back to you almost immediately.

Now, if you factor random vs fixed into the mix, who really knows when or if you will ever see them again ...

I agree it would be REALLY nice to know via some visual marker if the ship has been upgraded, and how many times ... Tracking the 200 odd ships that need to be shipped back and forth is a nightmare to say the least.

I am still quite confused over Japan upgrades, as I have yet to see anything apart from a DC get changed (and I'm really not positive that it changed). If this is the way it is supposed to be, thats fine, but it would be very nice to have some confirmation on this...from someone in the know...

Add to this complication that ships that appear on the scene later already appear to have upgrade number one (removal of 1.1 & .50 -> 40mm & 20mm). Do these ships jump to stage two and only need to be sent once, or do they get double upgraded too?

It is so rare to play a wargame with such vague rules.

(Hop, you don't see the change until the ship arrives back to you, so are tough to spot unless you pull up the database panel to see what the original class has.)

Against the AI maybe, but against an aggressive PBEM player, it will cost you big time if you try this.

My carriers have created so much havoc for IJN in the first couple of weeks, and have been the main reason that the IJN has not siezed Luganville or PM. You send the carriers back, and an IJN PBEM worth his salt will make you pay.

[dtx]

Mr. Frag - I had always wondered about this. It's interesting to see the upgrade paths.

Now if only someone will do an analysis of the time it takes to repair system damage for different ships in a port of size 9 - this would also help us make the decision about rotating.

I usually play as the American against the AI and in first few days, I cause some havoc. I never thought of immediately sending the ships back to the US for upgrades. The idea that they get full airplanes is helpful as well. I have sent the CVE Long Island back for repairs after receiving a torpedo and even well into 1943, it just sat a Pearl. Since I use it heavily as a plane transporter, this was a loss.

[Mr.Frag]

Simply put, anything larger then a DD never repairs in port.

Yea, they do, but it's probably some nasty formula such that the higher the VP value, the lower the repair odds.

I swear I have had CV's park over a month in a size 9 port with NO SYS reduction.

You put them in port to get rid of Floatation and Fire damage so you can send them back :rolleyes:

I would REALLY love to see a fixed formula, not the current luck of the dice formula at play here, as the whole thing reminds me of playing dice ... one should be able to choose which path one takes based on logic, not on dice ... this is a wargame

[Veer]

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
Simply put, anything larger then a DD never repairs in port.

Yea, they do, but it's probably some nasty formula such that the higher the VP value, the lower the repair odds.

I swear I have had CV's park over a month in a size 9 port with NO SYS reduction.

I think it might have something do with the number of ships needing repairs in said port. For example I had a CV with 17 sys damage repair to 5 sys damage in 3 months. It came down from 17 to 11 in 1 month, but after I added additional ships to the port to repair the pace slowed down.

DD's and smaller ships do repair quicker than large ships. Also ships with lower sys damage repair quicker than ships with greater sys damage.

[dtx]

Mr. Frag - Last night I started a new UV Scen 19 to try out the "sending ships back immediately idea" - it's great getting suggestions like yours because they add new life to the game(!).

On repairing sys damage - no question it is slow for bigger ships, but it does happen. Because the game has day-to-day turns it seems like forever. One of the things I like about the sys damage in UV is that it forces the player to be cognizant of the same issues that a commander did - i.e., that keeping ships out at sea will degrade their performance and that generally you want to keep them in port unless you have a very good reason to send them out.

In a former discussion on this issue, a commander of a group of ~14 bradley fighting vehicles said that it was a constant struggle to keep them all working. That some had recurring problems that could never be completely fixed (just like UV ships).

From a wargame design perspective, the sys damage also has another positive effect - it preserves the life of both your ships and the enemies ships because it forces them to spend relatively more time in port as opposed to being out sinking each other. If sys damage didn't happen to ships, players could have them constantly at sea - much more so than in real life - and cause constant havoc. This would tend to make the campaigns boring because high value ships would be lost rapidly (e.g., once I've sunk most of the Jap CVs, I find the game loses much of its attraction). ...... just some thoughts.......... dtx

[Mr.Frag]

I completely understand what you are saying about SYS damage. My issue is simply with the random nature and lack of any control given when this is supposed to be a strategy game.

I should have the flexability of prioritizing repairs in ports to the ships that I feel are required for my plans. Right now, I am completely at odds with the process.

A ship goes out and randomly incurs SYS damage everytime it enters a new hex (according to the documentation). I have had TF's set to patrol that never leave a hex run up high SYS damage (which disagrees with the posted rules). This randomness is acceptable within reasons, but I was never personally interested in games where a throw of the dice controlled whether you won or lost - thats WHY I play wargames, to have skill control outcome, not luck.

A ship is put in port and randomly repairs SYS damage using some unknown formula that would appear to be somewhat proportional to VP value of the ship. The higher value ships seem to have dramatically slower repair rate, even for trivial damage levels. This removes my ability to plan for use of assets that may or may not be ready at a certain point in time. This adds that dice factor, which I hate in wargames (no skill required, just luck).

Hopefully, WitP will have a user controllable repair system, perhaps the port size = number of dry docks that ships can be put into for repairs, and the user tranfers ships into these special slots (exactly the same GUI that exists now for forming a TF). This removes the dice from the picture to a certain extent, and gives you the control that you should have as a commander.