Great Game & Expected Frustration

[decaro]

"Succession is futile," or did you mean "Secession is futile"?

I also assume it's an allusion to Star Trek's Borg?

[PizzaMan]

Full Disclosure: I have not played the game.

Opinion: 1) If Cavalry does not have orders, they will dismount. It keeps the horses fresh, and prevents the trooper from being an easy target. 2) If infantry in column does not have orders they will break ranks. It keeps the soldiers fresh to sit, seek shade, fetch water, than to stand in one place fatiguing in the sun. Ever been to Gettysburg in July?

[Yogi the Great]

FRUSTRATION GROWS

It's probably me. I have enjoyed watching the beautiful game and battles. As I said in first post it was a must buy for me. But it also continues to show me why I don't like real time games. Click-fest term used by many in describing it is very true. As you get older the reflexes aren't there either and of course as you concentrate on one point of battle you find while you were doing that another point went to hell because you couldn't see it in time to properly do anything about it. Take control of a unit and move it, but when you come back apparently some other command you made (or AI made) has sent it to something else. As mentioned by others the constent shift of lines done by the game without you does get out of hand. I also agree fully with those about not being able to do any orders when the game is in pause. I bought the game in part because it advertised the pause feature but while it pauses there is nothing you can do. Zoom in, out, up, down, left, right, swivel and then try to find where things are isn't all that easy for click challenged people like me. Tired of clicking on the flags multiple times before it works and again trying to click to move maybe a half dozen times for it to register. And of course too much to worry about so busy trying to order units monitoring other factors get lost. Just as you think after hundreds of clicks you have it, your line starts running away.

Anyway I don't regret the purchase and understand why many will love the game. I will keep trying for awhile I haven't given up, but it looks like one more lesson learned for this old grognard to stay away from real time frustration in the future. I think many of you will discount the "frustration" factor as invalid personal opinion and I can understand that. On the other hand there will be those who share in it and stay away. If I but victory aside, I can at least enjoy watching the battles take place.

[Jim_NSD]

This may be more of a design philosophy issue. The game is intended to be a simulation of command in the Civil War. One of the significant design choices is the respect for the chain of command. The intent is that you should be issuing orders only one or at most two levels down the chain of command. So as a division CO, you would primarily be ordering your brigade CO's and in some OOB's artillery batteries. If as division CO you order a regiment someplace, that order will be superseded the next time the Brigade CO issues orders. You may choose to detach a regiment for a special mission but then it is your responsibility until you attach the unit back to its regular CO. If you are trying to direct the movement of every single regiment in your division, then it will turn into a giant clickfest. But that is not how command normally worked in the CW. Each CO got their orders and executed them within their understanding of the intent and to the extent of their skill as a CO. Some were good and some got a lot of good soldiers killed showing that they had no business in uniform. We have tried to build that into the design as well so checking out the skill level of your subordinate commanders and units can improve your ability to put units where they will be most effective. My suggestion is to step back a bit and let your subordinate commanders execute their orders.

-Jim

[RebBugler]

I think many of you will discount the "frustration" factor as invalid personal opinion and I can understand that. On the other hand there will be those who share in it and stay away.

Nope, I understand it completely. I'm on the inside pluggin for better player control...without TC. Try my Bugles and Flags mod. The toolbar is designed for better control, thus, less frustration.

In the meantime, I'll be busy trying to persuade the Fog of War majority on the team to ease up and help gameplay from the player's perspective. My next big push for player control is to strengthen the command 'No Orders', and make it stick when it is applied. So, units will obey COMPLETELY without the need for TC, which requires or usually results in that infamous click fest, micromanagement, that manifests into your title - FRUSTRATION GROWS

[Blaugrana]

RCH gave a reply on another thread that, I hope, may help with your frustrations, Yogi. I'll quote most relevant bits:

ORIGINAL: RCH
.... if you use the Courier&Maps mod, the game will pause while you use the written order courier screen

The only drawback is that the official scenarios cannot be played using mods. [...] Those scenarios are available to be played unranked. [using another mod or by some tweaking under the hood]

HTH

[RCHarmon]

Yogi,

There are a number of players who all they like to play is the single brigade. That will give you 4 or 5 regiments, this way you can focus on just those regiments. Fire up a sandbox division size and grab a single brigade. When I play Sp that is usually how I play. Let the AI control the rest. When I play past the division level I let the AI have some control over the troops. It is not just you there is a lot going on.

[oldspec4]

FYI for those (like me) that play the AI at division/brigade level within a battle..another option is to play multiplayer in offline mode.

The sequence is something like this: select MP-host-scenario game-select scenario-select commander-set officer-launch.

RebBugler may be able to provide the appropriate link back to the SOW forum for details.

[Yogi the Great]

ORIGINAL: RCH

Yogi,

There are a number of players who all they like to play is the single brigade. That will give you 4 or 5 regiments, this way you can focus on just those regiments. Fire up a sandbox division size and grab a single brigade. When I play Sp that is usually how I play. Let the AI control the rest. When I play past the division level I let the AI have some control over the troops. It is not just you there is a lot going on.

Makes sense RCH. Thanks to everyone else too for the comments. By the way I have had a number of games with tutorials some of which were very helpful. The Division tutorial on this game gave very little help. Considers actually stopping, giving reasonable instructions and let the "learner" then follow those instruictions. I don't think I missed anything but this basically just gave you a division and said go to it. A courier message telling you to go somewhere or take something or move etc without telling you how to do it is of little help. Basically I felt the only help of the tutorial is to just let you falter around while you try to discover how to actually do things on your own.

To Jim_NSD Thanks for the input, I understand your point and why some would find it fun to do. I'm just a gamer trying to play a game without being burdened by frustrating and distracting complications. Maybe they should consider an option that gives the easier control to the player and an option to add the complications for those like you who enjoy the micro-management. Just a thought.

[RebBugler]

To Jim_NSD Thanks for the input, I understand your point and why some would find it fun to do. I'm just a gamer trying to play a game without being burdened by frustrating and distracting complications. Maybe they should consider an option that gives the easier control to the player and an option to add the complications for those like you who enjoy the micro-management. Just a thought.

Ha, you've just met the ranking member of the "Fog of War majority" I'm trying to convince to include player control gameplay options.

[wodin]

I can understand the design here..it's about lack of control to some degree..just like it was in the Civil War. I think you have to go with the flow and play as a Civil War Commander than a wargamer..this means you have to give up alot of control and try your best with the means you have with orders and then hope your men carry them out.

Still the game isn't for me, maybe if I had an interest in the War it would but I played the very first game many years ago and quite liked it but it didn't hold me.

Also I think as said be a lower ranking commander with less units to manage and be a cog in the wheel rather than taking on the whole army and having to run around everywhere. I expect the higher the command the less of a control freak you have to be.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I can understand the design here..it's about lack of control to some degree..just like it was in the Civil War ....

According to the old TC manual, the game was designed to be as realistic as possible, i.e., "fog of war"; based on their traits, subordinate commanders will not always do as you want to simulate delayed and misunderstood orders, or even cowardice on their part.

The "dilemma" for the player to solve is how and when to use your own initiative, i.e., "Take Command," so as to fit your command unto the "same sheet of music" as your peer commanders.

It reminds me of that scene in the film Gettysburg when a Confederate General didn't take a hill as "suggested" by Lee, resulting in a bitter meeting between one of his subordinates and Lee about him.

Perhaps it's best to have a "c'est la guerre" attitude when playing this game.

[Yogi the Great]

Well, I won't blame the game I'll just blame me. I don't get it and perhaps I will come back someday when I have plenty of time and patience to figure it out. The frustration factor for now has won and I will go back to games that are more fun and playable without having to devote hours to learn the mechanics. I have trouble just finding units and figuring out where they are much less moving them in proper order. Too bad so much potential and nice to watch. But I have better things to do than spend so much time just trying to move units into place. Just not fun for me. I know that others will find many enjoyable hours playing this game. Just not my cup of tea so to speak. Have fun all. Maybe some day I'll have a sudden Aha moment and figure it out.

[RebBugler]

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Well, I won't blame the game I'll just blame me. I don't get it and perhaps I will come back someday when I have plenty of time and patience to figure it out. The frustration factor for now has won and I will go back to games that are more fun and playable without having to devote hours to learn the mechanics. I have trouble just finding units and figuring out where they are much less moving them in proper order. Too bad so much potential and nice to watch. But I have better things to do than spend so much time just trying to move units into place. Just not fun for me. I know that others will find many enjoyable hours playing this game. Just not my cup of tea so to speak. Have fun all. Maybe some day I'll have a sudden Aha moment and figure it out.

Needless to say, a disappointment, but entirely understandable. SOW is a learned experience, and fun doesn't figure into the equation for many in the beginning. But the diehards, primarily us Southerners with strong heritage feelings, embrace it immediately, bear with the steep learning curve, and persevere just for the sake of changing history, and saving the South from the northern aggressors...those damned Yanks, ya know.

Our SOW forum however, bears little resemblance to these North South territorial and political disputes. We are family, all equal. We cooperate mostly and other times we bicker. We pledge to keep it civil, but if need be, we have our Rant and Rave section to handle disputes more vocally. Gotta have that place to vent, I used it recently.

So, it pains us to lose someone that tried so hard to make the game work for them. You are a true gentleman by declaring your reasons for departure and not just bashing the game. I especially know how the game can be unfun, so I understand. I really don't enjoy playing the stock game anymore. I need my mods that change it for my preferences and basically my own designs to challenge me, and with the challenges, I find my fun, and immersion.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

I have trouble just finding units and figuring out where they are much less moving them in proper order. Too bad so much potential and nice to watch ...

Well, I hope the eye candy hasn't exceeded the game's replayability, but when you return to it, remember that you can tell what units you control by down arrow'ing from your highest commander, then left and right arrow for other peer commanders; you can always cross-ref to the map to see the "eye"-con as to where the currently selected commander is, but frankly I prefer the smaller scenarios.

[RebBugler]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

I have trouble just finding units and figuring out where they are much less moving them in proper order. Too bad so much potential and nice to watch ...

Well, I hope the eye candy hasn't exceeded the game's replayability, but when you return to it, remember that you can tell what units you control by down arrow'ing from your highest commander, then left and right arrow for other peer commanders; you can always cross-ref to the map to see the "eye"-con as to where the currently selected commander is, but frankly I prefer the smaller scenarios.

Yeah, thanks for the navigation tips, I wasn't sure what Yogi meant. I can't stand the keyboard navigation, that's why I have them modded to my toolbar.

Good plug for the smaller scenarios, I suggest this often in our designs, but tend to get overruled because some folks above me insist that once a scenario is scripted on the Corps or division levels, what's the point of covering the same action with several brigade level designs. I disagree, and I think folks, like you, will concur that the individual brigades within the big picture have their own story to tell, and can be equally entertaining.

Thanks

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: RebBugler

Good plug for the smaller scenarios, I suggest this often in our designs, but tend to get overruled because some folks above me insist that once a scenario is scripted on the Corps or division levels, what's the point of covering the same action with several brigade level designs. I disagree, and I think folks, like you, will concur that the individual brigades within the big picture have their own story to tell ...

... a story that can hit home when those brigades contain units from your own state.

[Norb]

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Well, I won't blame the game I'll just blame me. I don't get it and perhaps I will come back someday when I have plenty of time and patience to figure it out. The frustration factor for now has won and I will go back to games that are more fun and playable without having to devote hours to learn the mechanics. I have trouble just finding units and figuring out where they are much less moving them in proper order. Too bad so much potential and nice to watch. But I have better things to do than spend so much time just trying to move units into place. Just not fun for me. I know that others will find many enjoyable hours playing this game. Just not my cup of tea so to speak. Have fun all. Maybe some day I'll have a sudden Aha moment and figure it out.

This game is not for everyone. There are too many RTS games out there if you want total control. We try to simulate combat and will never become another RTS clone. It was never our goal with this game. We just think it's unrealistic to have 100000 soldiers do exactly what you want them to do and although I know it's not perfect by far, we have always tried to make the experience as realistic as is in our ability. It's what this game is at it's heart and that's not something we are going to change. It is frustrating to try and fight against the core of the game. Thanks for giving it a shot.

[vonRocko]

Norb, can't you, at least, add a pause to give orders function?[&:]

[Vasquez]

Agree^ While you already can pause the game you cant give orders.