Hairy Yankee Reports: Q-Ball (A) v Greyjoy (J)

[JocMeister]

Whats your reasoning around going in NOPAC? Is it part of your long term plan?

Good to see the invasion went off smoothly! And good thing you went "overkill" [:D]

[Canoerebel]

Q-Ball will answer for himself, of course, but his reasoning is very good:

1. Adak is a very good base both for Japan and for the Allies going forward. He denies it to Japan and gets it for the Allies. Voila, he has an advance patrol plane base and Japan doesn't.

2. An Allied build up in the Aluetians keeps an alert Japanese player honest in the Kuriles. Just the threat of an Allied build up will keep a certain number of Japanese assets tied down. That's helpful.

3. If Japan isn't careful, the Allies can create mayhem in NoPac later in the game.

4. Taking the offensive now puts some fear into the Japanese player. He has to be a little more defensively minded and it helps put him back on his heels rather than leaning forward.

5. The operation was relatively safe since it was pretty far out on the margin. Q-Ball knew a KB presence was unlikely but that his own carrier force "stood a chance" if the KB did pop up.

Very well thought out and implimented maneuver. Classic Q-Ball.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Q-Ball will answer for himself, of course, but his reasoning is very good:

1. Adak is a very good base both for Japan and for the Allies going forward. He denies it to Japan and gets it for the Allies. Voila, he has an advance patrol plane base and Japan doesn't.

2. An Allied build up in the Aluetians keeps an alert Japanese player honest in the Kuriles. Just the threat of an Allied build up will keep a certain number of Japanese assets tied down. That's helpful.

3. If Japan isn't careful, the Allies can create mayhem in NoPac later in the game.

4. Taking the offensive now puts some fear into the Japanese player. He has to be a little more defensively minded and it helps put him back on his heels rather than leaning forward.

5. The operation was relatively safe since it was pretty far out on the margin. Q-Ball knew a KB presence was unlikely but that his own carrier force "stood a chance" if the KB did pop up.

Very well thought out and implimented maneuver. Classic Q-Ball.

Thanks for the compliment, that's basically it: It's a low-risk way to punch back.

Kido Butai is due for several AA/Radar upgrades in June and July 1942. It's also a window where you can get 9 CVs together. So, it's not a bad time to try something, particularly late June when you can replace most of the TBDs with TBF.

The Aleutians is not very strategic IMO, but it's a low-risk way to punch back. The risk was lower, because Amchitka was the only airbase larger than size-1, and it was only size-2, so I expected minimal LBA (especially with so much of it in CBI).

Unless KB was hanging around the North Pacific, I figured I could land everyone and complete landings before he had a chance to respond. It's taking a bit long, but I should still be able to clear it.

6/25/42:

Another attack dropped the forts to ZERO, but failed to take Adak Island. This is getting a little frustrating! We are resting for a day, and the next one should take it; I hope.

I am pulling the CVs, as we are basically done unloading. As a bonus, our cruisers bombarded Amchitka, damaging alot of Mavis, but nothing else; no fighters, nothing.

The only resistance other than on the ground up here is by sub. An IJN sub did put a torp into HERMES, but she is made of tough stuff; just a couple points damage! That attack did reveal the presence of some RN up here, and the Aleutians is not a normal deployment for HMS HERMES, to say the least......

I plan to keep HERMES in the Pacific, and make her basically a flagship for CVE TFs.

Surface Combat:

AG ARGONNE is a picket ship I have north of Midway; she ran into a jap AMC. Somehow, she came off better, putting 4 shells into the AMC and setting her on fire! This was surprising!

Looking at ARGONNE, though, she has 5-in guns, and a crew experience rating of over 50. I know the Jap AMCs have very low crew ratings, so this was probably the difference.

That AMC will probably make port, but that raid is likely over. I bet she was trying to interdict Pearl-San Fran traffic, which isn't a bad idea.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

June 5, 1942:

Retribution:

The last ships sailed from Pearl Harbor, to the rendevous point. It will take about 2 weeks for this to develop; need to top everyone off, and get the transports loaded up

IO Carrier Move

That Carrier division in the Indian Ocean is now off Cocos. I'm pretty sure it's not KB, but after 3 sighting reports, I bet it's a combination of units like RYUJO, ZUIHO, SHOHO, maybe JUNYO, and a couple CVEs. There is also a cruiser TF there. Why are they there?

It's either a) an Invasion of Cocos, or b) some sort of raid. A raid does not make sense though; I have had very little shipping in the IO, and what little I had (3 transports unloading at Cocos), bugged-out. I literally have no ships at all other than PTs between Perth and Colombo.

So, he must be covering an invasion. It would make sense, if a couple units in Batavia were prepped. Whether he is coming or not, I can't do anything else to prepare; we're already dug-in to lvl-5 forts, I have 4 CD units, 300 mines, everyone is at 100% prep, I mean we're as ready as you can get. I'm not sending any more units; we are stacked to the max, and at any rate, I've loaded Cocos up with "disposable" units, like 45th Ind Bde, Sparrow Bn, etc. So that's it; Cocos will stand or fall depending on what GJ does.

Loss Summary to Date:

Here is a loss summary to date of major warships. As good a time as any to post. Of course, FOW applies to the IJN losses, but attached is my best guess:

IJN:
CA: Haguro, Ashigara
CL: Kiso, Kashii
DD: About 18 DDs, give or take. More remarkable, I show only 4 of these are "OLD"; almost all are newer-types (Fubuki and later)
SS: 8; 5 of these are to mine hits

ALLIED NAVIES:
BBs: ARIZONA, NEW MEXICO, W. VIRGINIA
CA: Cornwall, Exeter
CL: Pheonix, Boise, Glasgow, Hobart, Marblehead, Emerald, Dragon, Danae, DeRuyter, Tromp
DD: 11 DDs total; however, only 2 are modern USN DDs. The rest are old USN, Dutch, or 2 old RN DD

The BB losses hurt, particularly NEW MEXICO, which was taken out by RO-Boats entirely unassisted (first time I have ever seen RO-Boats take out something that big that wasn't a cripple!). I think the rest isn't bad at all. Of those Allied Cruisers, only the first 4 I listed are modern and decent; the rest are older types that in the long run are not really useful as other than escorts. My DD losses are particularly light; the older DDs are strictly escort ships.

As for the IJN, the two CA losses are excellent, as well as a fairly large number of modern DDs. Every little bit helps.

I would say that this is an excellent exchange for the Allies at this stage of the campaign.

In addition, the brief window offered by having nine carriers is about the only time I would consider a heads up fight with KB in 1942. But it is only a short opportunity and a smart Japanese player should just pass it up. That is if both sides are still at full strength.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
I would say that this is an excellent exchange for the Allies at this stage of the campaign.

In addition, the brief window offered by having nine carriers is about the only time I would consider a heads up fight with KB in 1942. But it is only a short opportunity and a smart Japanese player should just pass it up. That is if both sides are still at full strength.

I don't disagree on either count.....on paper, I've lost a bunch of cruisers, but many of those are nothing more than convoy escorts in the long run. The IJN DD losses are very high, and mine are almost none. IJN did get a lick in though last couple days....

6/28/42

IJN SUBS: HMS FORMIDABLE HIT!

The only resistance in the Aleutians has been subs, but GJ has committed a ton; last count was 17 spotted by me! There is a sub basically in every hex. And they managed to extract a price.

I-173 put two torps into CL RALEIGH; she was in terrible shape, so I scuttled her. She wasn't going to make port. Worse, another sub planted two torps into HMS FORMIDABLE; the damage is high, over 70+ float damage. She should make it to Dutch Harbor where I can pump her out, but the Major Damage is over 60; she's going to be out for awhile. With an early 1943 withdrawl date, it's almost as good as sinking her, because by the time I get her fixed, she'll be called back to the UK. ARRGH!

At least it wasn't WASP or something that might have sunk, or doesn't have a withdrawl date.

London Calling:

Speaking of recalls, HMS INDOMITABLE is heading to San Fran, and a withdrawl back to England. Apparently the Admiralty doesn't know that the Regia Marina is out of gas, and Hitler is about to ban the Kriegsmarine from leaving port, but....whatever. Take your CV!

Adak Island Campaign:

Adak island falls on the 25th; curiously, GJ launched a Shock attack a couple days later. He must be trying to kill the units off to get them to rebuild quicker. No other reason to Banzai like that, other than the honor of the virtual Emperor.

We already have a pile of engineers there, so in true Allied fashion, we'll build a major base about 50 times faster than the Empire ever could.

Plans:

We are going to keep the pressure up. All warships and invasion shipping are moving immediately to Pearl. There, we will repair minor damage, re-size the CV airgroups, and load up for the next target: Baker Island.

Baker is another low-risk target. It's not that important, but I just want to keep moving along the perimeter, until Greyjoy sees invasions in his dreams. I have 2 US Infantry Regiments prepped, which should be plenty.

After that, it will be back to the Aleutians, where the conquerors of Adak will be landed on Amchitka and Attu. We are beginning to prep for that, while we also repair damaged elements on the 2 divisions on Adak. We will move in early fall, when we'll be 100% prepped, to beat the winter.

Northern Oz:

I haven't mentioned it in awhile. We landed some units at Exmouth, which was never occupied by the Japanese, and we are building a base. GJ never took Port Hedland, which is still lightly garrisoned by a base force of mine. Once Exmouth is built, I am going to put together a large convoy to occupy Port Hedland in force, if GJ doesn't beat me to it.

China:

Now, the bad news. I am circling the wagons in China, but not a ton I can do.

I counted the Light Industry, we are producing 500 per turn in what's left of China. We are airlifting from Ledo to Tsuyung, but that could be shut down any number of ways by GJ. He hasn't yet. I also can't tell from the base screen, but it looks to me like the Burma Road isn't closed, and Chungking is getting 400 supplies a turn; does anyone know how to read that?

[JeffroK]

I think this "nipping away" is a vital tactic of the Allies in this time period.

The JFB would still be assuming that he is running the strategy, upsetting this thought process might cause a mistake.

In this case, had you been able to sneak in a bit better (Glen's should be banned!!) you might have seen a reaction with part of the KB, your force might have been able to take ot 1 or 2 key combat ships.
(About the only thing your force couldnt counter were the subs)

Having plans for Baker is, moving up in WA are all worthwhile moves which, at worst, will make GJ have to fight for them as against a peaceful occupation.

Pick up enough "minor/unimportant" bases like this and they may add to a major strategic achievement or place you better/ hinder GJ for a bigger move.

Just takes lots of ASW and commit some aircraft to ASW next time[8D]

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I think this "nipping away" is a vital tactic of the Allies in this time period.

The JFB would still be assuming that he is running the strategy, upsetting this thought process might cause a mistake.

In this case, had you been able to sneak in a bit better (Glen's should be banned!!) you might have seen a reaction with part of the KB, your force might have been able to take ot 1 or 2 key combat ships.
(About the only thing your force couldnt counter were the subs)

Having plans for Baker is, moving up in WA are all worthwhile moves which, at worst, will make GJ have to fight for them as against a peaceful occupation.

Pick up enough "minor/unimportant" bases like this and they may add to a major strategic achievement or place you better/ hinder GJ for a bigger move.

Just takes lots of ASW and commit some aircraft to ASW next time[8D]

I think this is all the Allies can do offensively; a major landing or attack deep in Japanese territory should be regarded, by a good Japanese player, as an opportunity. I thought about Marcus, but the likely outcome of that would be the destruction and surrender of whatever I left there, at this point. Same for Wake, more than likely.

Need more ASW next time, he did a good job with his subs......

6/30/42:

China:

Still quiet other than the attack toward Sinning, but I'm sure that's because GJ is resting and putting units into place for the next phase, which is cracking my lines around the Chungking plain, and getting into that plain.

Supplies continue to run out, and will only get worse

Burma:

Also very quiet. A large convoy was sighted by USS PICKEREL moving toward Rangoon; not sure what that's about, but probably no good. I expect more bombing, he might be waiting to build up Mandalay or more bases.

Adak Aftermath:

The remaining Japanese defenders on Adak are wiped out; I have alot of engineers there, and we are building up the airstrip and port, while the 2 divisions I landed are rest and training-up for the next target, Amchitka. All shipping is now gone, but IJN subs sank an APD, DD, and AK on my way out of town. Not a huge deal, but something.

The bigger problem is HMS FORMIDABLE. This doesn't really impact the balance of power in the Pacific, because she was going to withdraw anyway in 60 days; but what do I do here?

If I can't get this ship to Seattle and repaired, it's going to cost me lots of PPs. I hate to just waste it, but I'm of half a mind to just unload the planes and let it sink. Thoughts?

[KenchiSulla]

It will take you at least 40 days to get to Seattle (cruise speed of 2 NM). That leaves 20 days to do some repairs. If you save her you are doing it because you don't want her to sink, not because you are gaining anything..

With the PP system in place as it is I would try and get her sunk. Just imagine you saved her (you would have done it if not for PPs). It's just the VPs GJ will gain and you are not going to lose by autovictory in this game.

Just my 2 cents..

[Canoerebel]

Holy cow! No way any Allied player can let a carrier sink and look himself in the mirror ever again. Hugely bad karma. No matter what it takes you've got to try to save Formidable. No matter what it costs. Brace up, man! Do your duty!

[zuluhour]

You want to know what can happen if you choose wrongly, read my last AAR. One Royal Navy ship = no PPs for 6 months. Run her at full speed and scuttle her! Make sure upgrades are OFF! PANIC!!![:D]

actually you have time, whats the sub menace situation?

[Capt. Harlock]

Holy cow! No way any Allied player can let a carrier sink and look himself in the mirror ever again. Hugely bad karma. No matter what it takes you've got to try to save Formidable. No matter what it costs. Brace up, man! Do your duty!

It does seem a bit "gamey".

[Canoerebel]

If it's to the point that it absolutely cannot be tolerated, keep her in Dutch as long as possible, pump out as much as you can before you absolutely have to send her, and then set her to cruise and give her a good captain so that she has the best chance possible. Then, if she goes down, at least you can look yerself in the mirror in the morning.

[Q-Ball]

It's a weird problem.......it goes against the grain to actually want a ship dead, but looking at it rationally:

--I can't get it to San Fran, and below 50% damage which is necessary for withdrawl, in 60 days

--Thus, it will cost me 65 PPs a day before I can finish repairs to a sub-50% level

--It's worth 175 VPs; less than a USN CV, due to small airgroup capacity

--FORMIDABLE is not schedule to return until Feb 1945, at which point she isn't critical at all. So losing her doesn't hurt the war effort.

So, I unloaded all the planes, and sailed her to a known sub-infested area. If that doesn't work, I'll crank up the engines, and see if she founders

I feel strange about it; this is the first time that I get a ship sunk on purpose, but that's the rules around PPs, and I would rather lose 175 VPs than 100s or 1000s of PPs.

PS: I don't think it's gamey; it doesn't hurt GJ at all, I mean he was trying to sink her in the first place. It's just a function of the withdrawl rules, which can be a little screwy. If it was stock WITP way back when, when you could pick the CV to withdraw, sure...I would have definitely saved her.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock


It does seem a bit "gamey".

It is a simple act of balancing a game effect. The game doesn't let you use an infantry division in the pacific area because you have a severely damaged ship in San Francisco that you can't withdraw..

It hurts, but it is just the way it is...

[zuluhour]

I think you should be able to scuttle anytime. Graf Spee?

[JeffroK]

I dont think its right to "Kamikaze" any such damaged vessel.

But would have no problem if you attempted to return to SF and had to scuttle it when flot damage reached 90 (pick any figure you want)

Few Navies waited for ships to sink, managing a proper evacuation of crews was considered as imortant as the ship itself.

Even Bismark was scuttled when flot damage reached 99!

[zuluhour]

I have to add in the BigBabes there are many smaller vessels which just are not going to reach safety, would not the COs choose to scuttle before they fell into axis hands?

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's a weird problem.......it goes against the grain to actually want a ship dead, but looking at it rationally:

--I can't get it to San Fran, and below 50% damage which is necessary for withdrawl, in 60 days

--Thus, it will cost me 65 PPs a day before I can finish repairs to a sub-50% level

--It's worth 175 VPs; less than a USN CV, due to small airgroup capacity

--FORMIDABLE is not schedule to return until Feb 1945, at which point she isn't critical at all. So losing her doesn't hurt the war effort.

So, I unloaded all the planes, and sailed her to a known sub-infested area. If that doesn't work, I'll crank up the engines, and see if she founders

I feel strange about it; this is the first time that I get a ship sunk on purpose, but that's the rules around PPs, and I would rather lose 175 VPs than 100s or 1000s of PPs.

PS: I don't think it's gamey; it doesn't hurt GJ at all, I mean he was trying to sink her in the first place. It's just a function of the withdrawl rules, which can be a little screwy. If it was stock WITP way back when, when you could pick the CV to withdraw, sure...I would have definitely saved her.

+1

Its a game artifact.

I agtee with Jeff, would be nice to be able to scuttle at any time, this would alleviate this issue. OTOH, I'll bet people would accidently scuttle ships and be sending saves to Michael to return their ship if that was available and drive him crazy.

[Chernobyl]

Gameplay question: I notice you split your massive CV fleet into three groups. Could you go over the logic for this?

I notice sometimes when I send bombers to attack a fleet they sometimes attack the WRONG fleet (e.g. two destroyers instead of the battleship group). Is it a good idea to have one or more 'decoy' fleets in the same hex as your carriers (or in a nearby hex)? It would be awesome if 500+ attack aircraft wasted their ordinance on a couple of my destroyers.

What other considerations do you take into account when dividing fleets?

[Saros]

There are two main reasons. Firstly any task force over 15 ships suffers various penalties. Secondly Task forces suffer co-ordination penalties to airstrikes if the number of planes is over a certain number dependent upon the year. For the allies I think its 150 planes in 1942 increasing by 50 each year. IJN starts at 250? (I think?).

In 1942 the optimum task force grouping for allies is 2 fleet CV's. + escorts. (I try for a fast BB, 2 CA and a minimum of 8 DD's.) 1943 you can add a CVL or two depending on the fleet CV sizing and 1944 you can run 3 fleet CV's plus a CVL.

Finally air strikes target hexes (and pick targets in that hex based on detection and the VP's of the ships present) not individual TF's so more task forces doesn't mean a higher chance of wasted strikes.