Metaphor – DivePac(Ger) vs Jim D Burns(Sov), (No Jim)

[Schmart]

I have a hunch that it appears you're a little too passive with your German infantry. A single German Inf Div is almost guarranteed to push back any Russian unit during the summer of 1941 when using deliberate attack. Additional Divs might be needed when attacking across a major river or well fortified hex, but in a one-on-one fight, the German Inf Div should win a majority of the time on deliberate attack. Even hasty attacks against a 1 or 2 CV Russian Div (when your German Inf Div has only a few MPs left) has a pretty good chance of success. I see many places in the above screenshots where you could've pushed back some extra Russians units and inflict more losses. These kinds of attacks grind the Russians down.

[DivePac88]

ORIGINAL: Dudu

What kind of mod do you use to have so beautifull counters???? [&o]
I didn't spot that stuff in any forum... [:(]

Hi Dudu, I'm using Geyerfalck's counters and Tactical symbols, and here is the link - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2682014

Cheers Des.

[DivePac88]

Hi there Schmart...

Thanks for your comment, and yes you're probably right there. But I do try and mother my infantry divisions a bit, and maybe to much. Because I like the to go into the winter with good TOE and morale, so have an aversion to launching any risky or unnecessary attacks.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88
Hi there Schmart...

Thanks for your comment, and yes you're probably right there. But I do try and mother my infantry divisions a bit, and maybe to much. Because I like the to go into the winter with good TOE and morale, so have an aversion to launching any risky or unnecessary attacks.

Yeah, I did about the same in my first campaign. Play as if the Germans were seriously short on everything, so I reduced Luftwaffe usage a lot, and minimized attacks with Panzers and the Infantry. Afterwards I found that the Germans are not near as hamstrung as my own mind was.

It depends a bit on whether you plan for a sudden death victory, or aim for winning in the long haul -- former case you can risk to burn your forces to make the last yard, yet it is somewhat gamey. After 43 manpower gets tighter, mainly if you had divisions encircled, but Panzers can be replaced surprisingly easily. You'll rarely have a shortage, most times you stumble about the ToE allocation issue.

Before 43 you get sufficient forces to replenish the losses and you can afford deliberate attacks well. As Schmart said, if facing brigades, or single unentrenched infantry divisions in summer 41, think of it as bowling. Chances are good to rout them, and the more often you rout them, the heavier the toll on the Russian truck park.

During the blizzard it is sometimes good to set your infantry to 70% ToE since less men in the units lower attrition. The combat penalties are so severe anyways that before February the 20% less fighting men/power "end up as" rounding errors anyway -- it didn't seem to make a difference in my games, I could not hold with them either.
What do you guys think about this question?

[Durgard]

Thx a lot for the link ! [&o][&o]

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Hi there Schmart...

Thanks for your comment, and yes you're probably right there. But I do try and mother my infantry divisions a bit, and maybe to much. Because I like the to go into the winter with good TOE and morale, so have an aversion to launching any risky or unnecessary attacks.

No worries. I think too many players underestimate the German ability to grind the Russians with deliberate attacks from Infantry Divisions. Despite what we read in many history books, it wasn't all dash and daring by massed panzers. Keeping the pressure up will also prevent the Russians from digging in, building-up forts, maintaining integrity of defense lines, etc. I am thinking specifically from your T8 screenshot in the 9th and 4th Army sectors, where there are Infantry Divisions that have most if not all of their MPs remaining. They shouldn't just be sitting there doing nothing. If you're worried about unnecessary casualties then make deliberate attacks with 2 Divisions. There are some hexes there with Bdes or without forts that'll be easy wins. Otherwise, you're giving the Russians extra bonus time to dig in, and then you'll really be suffering unnecessay casualties to root them out later...

And a lot of it is damned if you do, damned if you don't. A good infantry force going into the first winter could also mean far fewer casualties for the Russians, more Russian masses, stronger blizzard counter-offensive, etc.

There's a learning curve involved. Try a few more deliberate attacks and watch the results. Then try some hasties vs CV 1 or 2 Rifle Divisions, especially those without forts or Divisions that you've already pushed back and are on the run. What you do want to watch out for is Russians in swamps. Those will need more attention. Don't forget that combat wins will INCREASE the morale and experience of your winning units.

[DivePac88]

Situation for turn 9, the week of the 14th August 1941.

One of the downsides of being a micromanager is support units, and this turn was finetuning time. For the first 5 weeks I mainly leave the SU’s alone and locked, as they are already allocated to the korps that do most of the early breakthroughs. But at the start of week 6 I unlock the SU’s, Set OKH to 9, Heeresgruppen and Armee to 0, then korps to 1.

Then after 3 or 4 weeks I finetune all SU allocation, basically following assignments; Infantry korps get 2 howitzer, 1 gun, 1 LW AA, 1 pioneer, 1 construction battalions. While Panzer korps get 1 howitzer, 1 or 2 nebelwerfer, 2 pioneer. The 210mm and 150mm howitzer battalions, along some construction battalions go to the Armee level. While the siege artillery goes to OKH, and is doled out to the Heeresgruppen for the special operations.

Heeresgruppe Nord.

On the Finnish front Stavka finally withdrew from the Wiborg area, after I had pushed in his eastern flank last week, and have now withdrawn to the old boarder. On the eastern side of Lake Ladoga, it would also appear the enemy has withdrawn also.

On the northern wing of the 18th armee I have managed to push across the Narva River in the Slantso area, and advance to the southeast. While the infantry divisions of the southern korps of the 18th armee and 1 panzer korps have pushed north and meet the northern force, and trapped 5 enemy divisions.

Heeresgruppe Zentrum.

Mainly static here, with the cleaning-out of the Loknja kesselschlacht. There were also some local attacks to gain good jump-off positions, while other divisions are moving into positions for another attempt to advance on Smolensk.

Heeresgruppe Süden.

The reduction of the Vinnitsa kesselschlacht was completed, and now the advance to the new Russian bolt lines is underway. Also I am now working-up an operation to envelope Kiev, and am trying to decide on a crossing point to the south of Kiev between Cherkassy, any ideas?

Ende.

[DivePac88]

Situation for turn 9, the week of the 21st August 1941.

No report this week sorry, too much real life stuff today I'm afraid.

[DivePac88]

Though I should introduce my chiefs of staff; On the left is Franz Halder, and on the right is Wilhelm Keitel.

[Klydon]

What? no Jodl? [:D]

Crossing point for the Dnepr can be a bit tricky depending on how well the Russians are dug in and how much you have to force a crossing. The area just south of Kiev can be tough simply because you don't have a lot of room to manuver between Kiev and the rough area. In addition, there is no real defensive protection on the other side of the river and the Russians can try throwing a lot at you to push back whatever came across. I like the area between Cherkassy and the Sula river. I can get some flank protection on my right there from the Sula river and have some room to get additional troops across the following turn or to help enlarge the bridgehead from across the river since I have a couple of spots I can launch 3 hex attacks from if needed.

[janh]

Seems they are quite comfy with the progress... [:D] Dare I ask what strategy they propose?

[DivePac88]

ORIGINAL:Klydon

What? no Jodl?

Hi Klydon... Here's a pic of Keitel and Jodl conferring on the pouch, but sadly Jodl and Halder aren't so friendly. [:D]

I like your Crossing point south of Cherkassy, and especially with the Sula on the southern flank. To be honest I had looked at that area, and thought it was too restrictive, but after another pass I think it has possibilities.

ORIGINAL:janh

Dare I ask what strategy they propose?

Hello there Janh, good to see you again. I think Keitel's main strategy is biting, and Halder believes in scratching. [;)]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Nice Des! [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[dave_wolf]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Though I should introduce my chiefs of staff; On the left is Franz Halder, and on the right is Wilhelm Keitel.

They like to play with Blondi? [;)]

BTW are those hand-made "modified" screenshots or do you use some tool to create them? (They're excellent!)

[DivePac88]

ORIGINAL: dave_wolf

They like to play with Blondi? [;)]

BTW are those hand-made "modified" screenshots or do you use some tool to create them? (They're excellent!)

Ja sie würden zu spielen mit Schäferhündin Blondi und Wolf [;)]

I manually cut and paste the maps with Paint.Net - http://www.getpaint.net/index.html, and they are slowly getting better I think as I learn.

[DivePac88]

*** Report to follow ***

[DivePac88]

Situation for Week 11, starting from the 14th August, 1941.


Heeresgruppe Nord.

On the Finnish front you can see on the map it appears that Stavka (Jim) has now pulled back to the old border, which I cannot cross for the present. This I had expected him to have done from the opening of the war, but he has in fact made a fighting withdrawal. This has been his overall doctrine, and has given me a chance to damage most of these defending divisions. Which, no drought he will have to use some of to defend south of Leningrad.

You will also see from the map that I have launched a breakthrough operation (Operation Imker {Bee keeper}) to the west of Leningrad, and managed to isolate about 10-12 enemy divisions. I had planned this operation to eliminate his mobile divisions, which I had thought would be in this area. But it would appear from a rough count, that I have mostly bagged rifle divisions.

Heeresgruppe Zentrum.

The main news here is operation Rattenfanger (Pied Piper), which has not fully succussed because of heavy Soviet resistance. The initial objective for the meeting of Panzergruppen 2 and 3 had been just to the east of Smolensk. But when it became clear that this would not be possible, I decided to turn inward early to slow any withdrawal down, as attempt the meeting in the next week.

Meanwhile on the southern flank of the Heeresgruppen, the 2nd Armee is fighting to establish a front to the east of the Pripet Marches. With the 2 northern korps forcing a 1 division bridgehead across the River Dnepr just north of Zhoblin, while the southern 2 korps have managed to clear the Soviets from the west bank of the Dnepr north of Kiev.

Heeresgruppe Süden.

There was a lot of action in this area with the Infantry mainly closing up on Kiev and the west bank of the Dnepr River, then clearing the east bank but not Kiev of the enemy. The 6th Armee is tasked with covering the northern flank of the Heeresgruppen, and to also give the impression to the Soviets that it will force a crossing north of Cherkassy. While the 17th Armee actually affects the real crossing just south of Cherkassy, thanks to Klydon’s excellent advice.

You will see that I have switched the 11th Armee to the southern flank of the Heeresgruppen, to the coastal region. This I think could have taken Stavka by surprise, as he would have expected the 11th Armee further north and hopefully built-up his defence accordingly. I have also attached 3 panzer korps to the 11th Armee for to 2 operations, one of which was Hintertur (back door) which I will cover next.

I planned Operation Hintertur as a counter, if the enemy decided to hold me up at the port of Odessa. This operation was one of the reasons for the early southern deployment of the 11th Armee south, and as you can see has worked well. As I now hold the port, which means the 7 rifle divisions around the port are now trapped. It also helped that Stavka had used his defending divisions to beat-up my Allies the previous week, and only actually had 1 rifle division holding the port itself.

Ende.

[janh]

Some nice moves! I think the Rattenfänger is going catch his rats soon. Jim will have to contract his lines around Smolensk and most likely abandon his heavy defenses on the upper Djenpr around Mogilev, or at least start a withdrawal of some unit to reconnect with Smolensk and escape the threat of being outflanked. The main thing is that you now have breached the Smolensk line to the north (almost across the width of the landbridge it would seem) and to the south!

Hmmh, what next? Perhaps using PG2 and PG3 to the south and north of Smolensk for a deeper penetration? The infantry should keep the supply lines open and do pocket duty. PG2 I would put on an axis towards Waskowo Railway station and then either turn it south to Roslawl if Jim holds the Djenpr bend, or turn it northward to link up with PG3 to the east of Smolensk.
With some luck PG3 might find easy going via Demidov to Durowo or Drogobush. That's were I bet behind the river (again that one...) you'll find the next line of his, the Vyazma defenses if Jim already had had time to set them up. Now some alternating HQ-build ups might come handy, Panzerkorps relieving Panzerkorps to maintain momentum.

The German offensives, more so than the Russians due to the much better mobility and large force disparity in 41/42, seem to depend critically on throwing the Russian player's balance off in the first two or three turns, and then keeping him off balance until blizzard. Once the Red gets a good respite to create order from chaos (and some help by the German even making his strategy too clearly visible, or even choosing a contest on poor attacker terrain), the Axis will face stronger resistance. Likely not insurmountable given the Wehrmacht clear edge in quality, as I hope you'll soon find, but the Red masses I see on your map here, or seen before when Scar played Axis of where Pelton struggled against Michael in the Valdai, will cost valuable time before blizzard and make things more tedious.

One thing I noticed, which I would probably do differently: You could concentrate your infantry more and allow it to better assist your Panzer fists. For example 16th Armee holding 9th Armee(?) and PG3's left flank, or 4th (?) Armee just to the south of PG 2, could stretch out across the uninteresting parts of the front, and concentrate on other parts. 16th Armee take over at least some 6-8 hexes from 9th & 18th Armee, freeing that to support PG3 or put pressure up towards Velikye Luki and towards Rshev. The Russians in this game usually cannot exploit such weakening as they did historically with the emergencies happening to the south of lake Ilmen, or elsewhere with their heavy counterblows. Having a good Wehrmacht infantry division every two hexes is sufficient in the Valdai or around the Pripyat as any cavalry or so try to sneak thru will be cut from supply quickly and be pretty useless with the isolation rules.

[DivePac88]

Hi there Janh … Thanks again for your excellent input, and I think that maybe you and Klydon are my chiefs of staff instead of our pets.

Yes there might be some nice operations rolling, but Jim’s tactics are still proving troublesome. As those penetrations especially in Imker and Rattenfänger were hard going, with 2, sometimes 3 lines of dug in rifle divisions, then some fortified strong points and finally his mobile divisions. I think the only reason I forced the Dnepr for Panzergruppe 2’s breakout was 2 good rolls, and after that it was just fighting for every hex.

In Rattenfänger I had intended to meet the Panzergruppen just to the east of Smolensk, but will reassess it after my next air recon. Sometimes I wish I had a crystal ball, and I could see clearly what’s going on in his rear, but then that would take away the fun and suspense of the campaign. I do extensive air recon, both deep strategic and local tactical, which can take a few hours. But it never really seems to give the full picture, and sometimes one has to use their imagination for good or bad.

I really like your draft ideas for after Smolensk, and will spend hours studying them. I have found that I am actually spending more time planning this game, that playing it. I think you’re correct about his next line based on Vyazama, but can only guess how extensive his defences are. I afraid I have a problem with HQ build-up, only use it really and once, as I consider using it in sequence as chaining. Call me nuts or misguided if you want, but it’s just the way I like to play these games.

I know I still bunch my flanking armee too much, but it comes from all those unrealistic table top and board games I have played. But you are correct, and I need to thin them out so I can concentrate my attacking strategic forces properly. I have a lot of other stupid ideas, and it takes time for things to get into my thick skull. But I am really enjoying this campaign; it ranks as one of the best I’ve ever been involved in, and I’ve had a few. Also I think, and hope that Jim is having the same experience, as I really want to see this to the end.

[Peltonx]

AGN: Your doing very good and it looks like Leningrad will fall at some point. ASAP send the 4th PZ to center.

AGC: Your not doing that good so far, but SHC lines "look" paper thin and you will probably get some nice pockets soon. I don't think Moscow is withen your reach, unless the SHC keeps the south so over loaded. Its possible hes over doing the south and the center will fall apart quickly, but you only have a few turns to exploit his poor strategy.

AGS: Things look bleak down here so far, only because SHC has so many troops down here many more then needed.


SHC losses seem low, but you could turn that around still.

The over all up side is as long a you survive the blizzard you will have a shot in 42 to turn the tables.

The problem you will fase during blizzard if your not able to KIA 3 millionish russians, you will be facing 5 million mad as hell russians and your chances of getting the german army through winter will not be easy.

SHC has the upper hand right now, but you still have time to get the 3 million KIA needed.