Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

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Jim D Burns
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Jim D Burns »

Turn 10 - 8/21/41

5 x heavy industries evacuated from Dnepropetrovsk. 4 x heavy industries evacuated from Zaporozhye. 4 x heavy industries evacuated from Kharkov.

Along the Luga line only one attack was made by the Germans to clear the rail hex on the south side of the river. Supplies must be low or something or he's waiting for more infantry to arrive before crossing the river.

East of Pskov the Germans broke my line along the Shelon River and crossed over into the marsh hex that anchored the south end of that line. I was forced to withdraw to far less defensible positions just to the east. I'd have withdrawn further east, but with no forts dug yet behind the Polist River I wanted to give the weak units along that new line some time to dig in.

North of Velikie Luki the Germans actually withdrew from the swamps, so I advanced slightly to grab some more breathing space for the new line formed behind the Lovat River this turn.

The attack I expected at Velikie Luki last turn did not develop, so perhaps he was doing an HQ buildup. Things remained pretty stagnant from Velikie Luki South to just north of Mogilev where the Germans managed to get a one hex foothold across the Dnepr with strong infantry assaults clearing 2 of my level 3 fort hexes. With German infantry on my side of the river, I disbanded my two fortress units and began preparing the next line east behind the Pronya River.

West of Gomel saw the Germans clear all but one hex on their side of the Dnepr, so I abandoned the last position and began preparing for the inevitable crossing about to occur. I found this area a bit light in units now that the natural chokepoint on the west bank of the Dnepr is cleared out, so I'll have to send some more units to this area as soon as I can.

The Germans cleared the west bank of the Dnepr just South of Kiev this turn. I've beefed up my side of the river to 2 divisions per hex, so I'm hopeful I can hold for a turn or two. I don't want to withdraw from the area, but at the same time I'm very mindful of huge potential pockets getting formed, so things will be dicey near Kiev over the next few turns.

Near Odessa some Axis minor divisions carelessly sauntered up to my lines so I executed some attacks. I'm not about to let him dig an opposing fort line on the cheap. I committed a lot to Odessa, so he'll need to commit a lot too if he wants to encircle it with his own ring of forts. I easily retreated a lone Italian infantry division on the north side and then a lone Rumanian Infantry division on the south side (required two attacks).

Unfortunately I was flush with victory disease and decided to leave my forts and executed an ill advised 4 division plotted attack on 2 Rumanian infantry divisions and an HQ unit. The attack succeeded, but one of my divisions ended up getting stuck outside my fort line. My defense around Odessa is still strong, but I'll miss that division if it routes instead of retreats in the German turn. I should have simply been satisfied with the two lone divisions I spanked and left that stack alone. That said, it was nice forcing the Rumanian HQ to rebase.

Near Moscow you can see the reconstituted divisions are starting to arrive in good numbers now. In another couple of turns I'll have two solid lines of diggers building my fort lines. The large numbers of brigades due to arrive soon will go to man the border with Finland and start digging behind the rest of the unoccupied hexes of the Dnepr River down south.


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Klydon
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Klydon »

I think the Germans have been rather slow in their advance and it is going to cost them. They have not ground or surrounded Russian units and he is around a month behind I think . Having said that, he is going to be strong for the most part and the last couple of turns bears that out. You are not being pressed to evacuate industry, so keep that going for awhile, but in some distant places that may get evacuated, I would consider holding off for a bit (Like Stalino).

The fort line on the Finn border may free some counters for you, but it was a huge waste of AP. You have a lot that needs to be done with what points you have including weeding out your worst commanders, forming new SU's to allow them to fill out and get some experience. (Like piles of sapper regiments). You will also need some APs to move units around to help with the loading situation with your armies and fronts. (You have some light blue units from a MD far to the rear; they should be transferred to a local command). Russian units are notorious for not filling out very well or doing much in the way of traning/experience increase if they are not in range of their HQ. You also need a big balance headed into winter in order to form up your cav corps.

Generally good placement of fort units in front of Moscow. If you can fill up the spaces and get them digging, it will be brutal for the Germans trying to get through there, but it will take a lot of manpower/units to pull that off.

Heh. 7 Mountain divisions up by Leningrad. If they survive to winter, they are gonna hurt some Germans in the winter offensive. [;)]
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by TulliusDetritus »

And no push in the Center (to me the really important spot) [&:]

This reminds me Herr Pelton's campaign vs Michael... The latter had correctly detected his enemy's plans and had stripped the center to concentrate in the main push (north)...

Not saying you have to follow this strategy.

Another weird thing: it looks like the German player is trying to hide his panzers, since we hardly can see them. Problem is, you cannot play hide and seek during the 17 first turns... You have to go for the kill. And when you do that your spearheads cannot be hidden.

Excellent news for the Soviet side here
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Jim D Burns
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Klydon
but in some distant places that may get evacuated, I would consider holding off for a bit (Like Stalino).

I'll continue to evacuate heavy industry and perhaps a few more armaments in some places, but the actual equipment manufacturing plants shall remain until German breakthroughs threaten them.
ORIGINAL: Klydon
The fort line on the Finn border may free some counters for you, but it was a huge waste of AP.

The whole point of having so many units in Finland in the first place was to avoid paying for the fort line. But the consensus in the thread was I was wasting all that combat power and I should leave. I was convinced by the arguments given so I left. Perhaps a stronger German push towards Leningrad would have made it imperative that I did leave, but there was no way to know that the units weren't going to be desperately needed for the defense of the city when the decision was made.

As to spending APs on leaders, I'll hold off on replacements until after the German offensive. I can potentially still lose a lot of battles before mud sets in and I don't like the notion of getting good commanders shot by Stalin because their win/loss ratio goes against them.
ORIGINAL: Klydon
Heh. 7 Mountain divisions up by Leningrad. If they survive to winter, they are gonna hurt some Germans in the winter offensive. [;)]

8 if you count the one near Velikie Luki. And then there are the ones down near the Turkish border (I think they unfreeze before winter, not sure). I should have a nice offensive punch with these guys all massed and supported by lots of cavalry to exploit the breaches they make.

Jim
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Jim D Burns »

Turn 11 - 8/28/41

8 x heavy industry factories evacuated from Leningrad. The only thing remaining in Leningrad are the armored car factories that do not upgrade to anything new. 4 x armaments factories evacuated from Bryansk.

Well I don't know what to say this turn other than ouch. My strong defensive positions (at least they looked like they were strong) all along the line melted away like they didn't even exist. Not one strong position had a hold result, they all saw their high CVs of 1600-900 melt away to almost non-existence and every single fortified position had its fort stripped away to zero.

Almost the entire northern army was isolated and cut off near Leningrad with no hope of escape. All I could do was abandon any premise of strong defensive positions and simply create carpets of units in the rough terrain with what remains in the area.

In the center my opponent tried to bite off more than he could chew and failed to seal the east edge of a large pocket he attempted on the land bridge. Units within the pocket simply moved one hex east to re-open supply lines and I found the two strongest units trapped inside were adjacent to a weak 5 defense German infantry division.

After three tiny AI assigned bombing missions only saw 3-4 bombers launch on each, I went in and did two all-in bombing missions assigned manually. Each one saw about 50 or so bombers go in and actually cause some reasonable damage to the weak German division. Even so the attack barely managed to force a retreat, but it did succeed, so I was able to isolate his northern arm of the pincer.

The southern arm of the pincer was much more secure and all I could do was lay a carpet of units before it. Everything else inside the potential pocket squeezed as far east into the gap as it could, except for a few rear guard units.

Along the Pripyat Marshes, the German cavalry has been moving up and down my lines over the past couple of turns. This turn saw them all piled into a single hex, so I moved a couple units out from behind the Dnepr to isolate them this turn. I was sorely tempted to ring the German units and try and hold them trapped for a turn, but I didn't want to risk getting my cavalry units isolated in return.

South of the marshes I continued to pull my units back behind the Dnepr and the Southern Front abandoned its positions behind the Ingul River and fell back to the Ingulets River.

Odessa saw its strong forts easily over-run with both a level 3 and 4 fort being stripped away. The level 4 fort was stripped away even though the Germans showed an engineer value of 0...

I must say the combats seen this turn leave me really disappointed with the game. While I never expected the Russians to be able to hold, I thought there would at least have been some difficulty in the initial breakthrough attempts given how strong some of my positions were. But after this turn I'm left with no doubt the only thing the Russians should ever contemplate doing is carpeting their units. Strong defensive positions simply mean nothing in this game.


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Klydon
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Klydon »

Jim, you have to take into consideration how strong the Germans are based on two things. First, he has not done a lot of fighting with most of his units. Secondly these are not worn down formations operating at the end of a long logistics chain, so they are going to still be very effective in mowing through most any defense. In addition, he has also provided rest for a fair number of formations as well, further increasing their combat potential.

It is one thing to expect to stop 1941 Germans that are tired and at the end of a long logistics line with a stack in a fortifed hex, but you won't be stopping him here in most cases.

Time is on your side at this point. The only thing of consequence threaten is Leningrad and even that is not a sure thing for him. Other areas, you can afford to give some ground and leave some screening units in place to make his panzers work a bit.

As another side note, I would get the units out of the line that belong to the MD HQ's. (Pink, green and light blue). They only have a command capacity of 36 and since those MD's are locked in place, you won't be real close to some of them. You can also transfer units for free from them (like Stavka), so it makes sense to put a good commander with them and let them train up some of your troops, then transfer the armies to your front commands when they are ready. Some are crazy about trying to relieve the overloading on the fronts, (I am one of those), but at this point in the game, you don't really have a lot of choices in that regard and you will get some additional front commands coming. Just my two cents on that. [;)]
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Jim D Burns
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Jim D Burns »

Thanks Klydon, I didn't know the rear area MDs could do free transfers. I'll definitely be doing a rework of the command structure as soon as I get some new armies to put the units into, but right now everything is pretty much maxed out that's why I started using the MDs for the extra units. The MDs will become my new rear area digging commands when I do the shuffling of units.

As to my rant this turn, sorry for the negative tone. I never expected anything to hold and I'm fine with most of the turns combats (though I'm at a loss to explain why most of my CVs dropped by over 80%-90%), but when you see a level 4 fort go down to a 2 division attack with no engineer support and no preparatory bombardment it just feels wrong. A position like that should not be so easy to tackle without serious engineer support or heavy pre-battle bombardments. And even then it should not fall very easily to just 2 divisions even with that kind of support.

Treatment of level 3 forts is different to me, I think they should generally need the extra specialized support to be present for consistent success, but it should perhaps not be mandatory that it be present for them to fall. But level 4 and 5 forts are different, seeing one of those stripped away to zero so easily really sticks in my craw, something is amiss with the logic of the combats surrounding these kinds of extensive fortifications.
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Baelfiin »

Hi Jim

Heavy Artillery will also work to suppress and destroy fort levels, can you post a screenshot of the battles where the forts vaporized?
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Jim D Burns »

Here's the battles fought for Odessa and one on the land bridge. The land bridge fight is an example of the loss of my CV. While I understand the CV can be modified by a lot of things, if my math is right the end result here was just 6% of my CV remained. Most of my losses were retreat losses in this battle, so I don't see combat resolution causing the huge loss of CV, so it has to be other modifiers causing the huge crash.

The battle NE of Odessa is fine as far as I'm concerned as it had ample engineer support. But the battle for Odessa was across a river and had an engineer value of 0, yet it stripped every single fort level away. I wouldn't say 2 battalions of Stugs and 1 Nebelwerfer and 1 howitzer was a remarkable amount of artillery given that we are talking the reduction of hardened fortifications for this battle. I wouldn't have had an issue with the loss of a single fort level perhaps, but to reduce it to 0 with an engineer value of 0 just seems too easy.

P.S. I was wrong about the 2 division attack on Odessa I remarked about earlier, I hadn't seen the 294th division listed on the roll-over page yet when I posted that.


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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by janh »

1st Lehr Pioneer Battalion, and there are 4 more SUs dropped of the list. Not sure why it says 0 ENG here, though. FoW? I suppose the 3rd division in the Axis pack was one of the better infantry divisions? Likely fresh, given 3500 of 3700 squads were ready.

Your CV were vastly inflated, though, by your own support units: the two howitzer and arty elements and the motorcycles (what did the counter "=" read before attacking, btw?). The SUs don't really add so much to staying power, especially on the defense. They caused German disruption and casualties (actually in the combat phase the Germans suffered worse, 3:2, if you exclude the retreat losses), but maybe the Germans rushed thru the perimeter so quickly that they could not enough to turn the tide. Playing thru the combat on highest message details would tell, but it will be a long show.

The brunt of the work was with your green tank and rifle divisions, both inferior to three attacking Wehrmacht veteran units. The were low on morale and even lower on experience, causing the high retreat losses. And they were quite fatigued, while Klydon probably has it right that one benefit of Divepacks delays for him is being fresh and refitted. That combination might have done it.

Not quite sure, though, what fort level 2 translates to. Level 1 I thought meant fox-holes, sand-bag bunkers and shallow infantry trenches. Level 2 maybe incorporation of infantry or tank mines, more extensive trenches and additional obstacles. Judging from building times, only levels >3 would probably mean concrete structures, tank ditches, tank minefields, and mutually supporting defensive works in depth?
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Jim D Burns »

In my mind (and I admit this is totally subjective) level 1 forts are simply foxholes with locking fields of fire. Level 2 would be similar to level 1 but with much more depth to the lines. Level 3 would be extensive interlocking trench lines and the strongest possible earthworks. 4 and 5 would be hardened fortifications with a similar relationship to each other that I envision for levels 1 and 2.

The 105th Tank division would be the 1=7 counter just east-northeast of Vitebsk in post number 40's screenshot above. I assume the infantry division that defended with it would be the one just to its west in the same screenshot, so it was probably retreated once before this battle.

Also there was a hold result for this hex just prior to the battle I posted in the screenshot where a single German infantry division attacked them, so perhaps he intentionally increased my fatigue levels with the minor battle first before launching his stronger push. But if that tactic actually worked, wouldn't the displayed pre-battle CVs be much smaller than shown?

Jim

Edit: The more I think about this, the more I'm beginning to think it isn't the reduction in CV that is the problem, it's the huge CV displayed in the first place. Why would a motorcycle regiment add 274 to the CV for instance when a good order Tank division only adds 64?
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Jim D Burns »

Turn 12 - 9/4/41

4 x armaments factories and 3 x heavy industry factories evacuated from Ordzhonikidzegrad. 4 x heavy industry factories evacuated from Bryansk. 2 x heavy industry factories and 1 armaments factory evacuated from Kaluga.

Not a lot to report this turn near Leningrad. Germany cleared up most of the Northern Army pocket and pushed a few hexes northeast as well crossing the Luga River near the rail lines running northeast from Pskov.

From south of lake Ilmen all the way to just south of Velikie Luki the lines remained static.

On the land bridge Germany re-established supply for the northern arm of his pincer and widened the breach of both the northern and southern arms. However he did not manage to close the pocket and I was able to get a few more divisions out of the trap. He'll probably trap 4-6 divisions this turn as not everyone had the movement available to get away.

With the widening of the southern arm of his pincer and a German infantry crossing across the Dnepr in strength northwest of Gomel, it was too dangerous to stay in what remained of my forts along the rest of the Dnepr and I pulled back to the Pronya and Sozh Rivers.

West of Chernigov German infantry pushed across the River along the rail line as well. But given the rough terrain in the area I decided to try and stay around for another turn or two before falling back. I'm pretty weak in this area and if I fall back here I'll need to abandon the Dnepr line to the south, so the longer I can tie him up clearing the swamps here, the better.

Kiev fell this turn. South of Kiev Germany only made attacks to clear his side of the river. In a more worrying note, I've lost track of the German panzers in the south. What you see in the screenshot is all I could discern after flying lots of recon missions all up and down the lines. In the south I flew as far as 20+ hexes deep in some areas, but no panzer units were spotted.

I suppose a few of the ? units might be panzers, but usually I get at least one or more confirmed sightings of mobile units due to the large concentration of the panzer armies. This turn leaves me feeling a bit uneasy as to where they've gone.

On a strategic note, recon seems to indicate that the 11th Army is poised to strike south towards Sevastopol and the Rumanians will head east towards Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye. Personally I think this is a mistake, he needs to push as hard to the east as he can with what remains of good weather. Baring any re-appearance of the panzers near the Rumanians, I may try and hold along the Ingulets River for a time.

Unfortunately I did my heavy recon flights at the end of my turn so no units were available to send towards Sevastopol this turn. Next turn I'll send everything I can down there to help tie up the 11th Army for as long as possible.


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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Jim D Burns »

I'm afraid DivePac has been forced to resign due to very serious health issues. I'm not comfortable discussing what little I know about his health in a public forum, suffice it to say my prayers go with him and his wife in this very difficult time.

Jim
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

Jim, did Des contact you directly or you got info from his family?


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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

I am asking because we had one big scare about Des few mounts ago (more about this you can find out in WitP:AE forums)...


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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Jim D Burns »

Direct from email, but he was already back in the hospital as of a week or so ago and only recently got his laptop brought to him there.

He stated he has just now taken a turn for the worse and they are now flying him to the city hospital and he will not be allowed to have his laptop anymore, and "if" the ops work he'll be out of commission for a very long time. It does not look good.

Jim
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by TulliusDetritus »

Sorry to hear that [:(]
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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Direct from email, but he was already back in the hospital as of a week or so ago and only recently got his laptop brought to him there.

He stated he has just now taken a turn for the worse and they are now flying him to the city hospital and he will not be allowed to have his laptop anymore, and "if" the ops work he'll be out of commission for a very long time. It does not look good.

Jim

Thank you very much for this info Jim!


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RE: Emu for breakfast, Divepac88 (Axis) vs. Jim Burns (Soviet)

Post by janh »

Sorry to hear, indeed. I hold my thumb that he'll be better quickly and that we'll see him back around some time soon.
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