Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Nice topic Leo. Will have to give it some thought for sure. [:)]

My early response would be that the Allies had already declared war on Germany before Russia moved in. I don't know that it would have made a lot of sense to immediately make peace with Germany and then everyone declare war on Russia. I also don't think any of the three (Germany, France, and Britain) were ready for a show down with Russia in 1939. All three, especially Germany, would be far stronger 9 months later when the campaign in the west opened. The other issue that would have remained would have been the question of a independant Polish state.
warspite1

Why do you say making peace with Germany? That isn't in the equation at all. The question is why didn't the British and French declare war on the Soviet Union too?
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Klydon

Nice topic Leo. Will have to give it some thought for sure. [:)]

My early response would be that the Allies had already declared war on Germany before Russia moved in. I don't know that it would have made a lot of sense to immediately make peace with Germany and then everyone declare war on Russia. I also don't think any of the three (Germany, France, and Britain) were ready for a show down with Russia in 1939. All three, especially Germany, would be far stronger 9 months later when the campaign in the west opened. The other issue that would have remained would have been the question of a independant Polish state.
warspite1

Why do you say making peace with Germany? That isn't in the equation at all. The question is why didn't the British and French declare war on the Soviet Union too?

Robert, I think Jay ("Klydon") is speculating that after Poland was gone (and was partitioned by Germany and Soviet Union) the Western powers (France and Britain) might have made peace with Germany...

BTW, Hitler most certainly expected that to happen!


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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by Klydon »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland (and joined Germany in doing so)?

Leo "Apollo11"

I was going by Leo's original statement.

Since the Allies were already at war, it was an easy step to move along to the old saying of "the enemy of my enemy (in this case, Germany) is my friend". In effect, the Allies had already chosen sides between Russia and Germany by being at war with Germany already. Also remember that Russia and Germany were not at war with each other at this time. Stalin wanted an alliance with Germany. An Allied declaration of war against Russia would have further pushed Russia and Germany together as co-beligerants, although it would have been interesting to see what happen since the Allies lacked the means to do anything effective against the Russians (except perhaps a blockade) and the Russians were not going to do anything against the Allies, except maybe in the Middle East against say Persia, etc and the Allies could have done nothing about it.

Even with the Allies at war with both Germany and Russia, the German/Russian "alliance" would have still broken down simply because Hitler and Stalin didn't trust each other and there was friction between the two because their spheres of influence overlapped each other.
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by turtlefang »

The British used a technical loophole in the 1939 Anglo-Polish Agreement of Mutual Assistance

The issue centers on what defines a "European Power". By this the two governments agreed to assist each other against any aggression by 'a European Power'. So far, so straightforward. However, several secret clauses specifying that 'a European Power' meant Germany and that the appropriate response to any other acts of aggression would be decided only after the event. The British government ignore the Soviet invasion for all the reasons others have already mentioned and still keep to the letter of the Agreement. The reason the British had inserted the clause in the first place was, of course, that they foresaw that the Soviet Union might exploit a German invasion to make their own gains in Poland, a possibility that the Nazi-Soviet Pact had made all the more likely.

And in 1939 the Soviet Union was expelled from the League of Nations because of the Polish Invasion.

Two months later, Stalin invaded Finland. Britian and France considered sending troops AND Britian/France/USA all sent Finland large amounts of aid against the Soviets.

In addition, the French High Command strongly recommended against expanding the war against Germany as they were concerned about being able to win against just the Germans rather than the Germans and Soviets. In addition, the French decided not to put any forces into enforcing the existing French tready with the Polish against the Germans - the French high command just didn't believe they had the forces counter the Germans much less Soviets.

So the issues was discussed. But Poland ended up as the burnt offering as far as the Soviets were concerned - basically, the British and French decided, without a lot of debate, that they had bitten off more than they could chew with Germany and had no intention of making the elephant bigger by engaging the Soviets.
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by morvael »

with a European Power

This, if threatened to lose face, GB could argue that Soviet Union is an Asiatic Power, since most of it's land lies in Asia :)

On a more serious note, I remember the Allies were much closer to war with SU during the Winter War. They even planned to send some units to help Finland, which were later re-routed to Norway. All in all, it was a clever plot by Stalin not to invade Poland on day 1 as a "simple" agressor along the Reich (I guess this would have to result in an Allied-Soviet war since it would be illogical to issue an ultimatum to just one invader), and later his public claims of "help", supported by orders of Polish SQH not to fire upon Soviets, unless fired upon (which happened quite often, though), and the general lack of knowledge what happend in eastern Poland (and what would happen soon) weren't clear in the West. Of course the secret clauses of M-R pact that weren't known publicly at the time, were the cause of Soviet expansion (and in general the imperialism of a totalitarian regime ruling a world superpower). Later on, when the war dragged on and didn't seem easy anymore, it would be foolish of the Allies to add one more enemy to their list. They already had problems to contain Germany... If a war was to happen it would have to be declared before the invasion of France, with the higest probabilty between 17th September and 5th October 1939 and during the Winter War.

edit: hehe, I wrote in the similar vein as turtlefang, whose post I didn't read before writing mine :)
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: morvael
with a European Power

This, if threatened to lose face, GB could argue that Soviet Union is an Asiatic Power, since most of it's land lies in Asia :)

On a more serious note, I remember the Allies were much closer to war with SU during the Winter War. They even planned to send some units to help Finland, which were later re-routed to Norway. All in all, it was a clever plot by Stalin not to invade Poland on day 1 as a "simple" agressor along the Reich (I guess this would have to result in an Allied-Soviet war since it would be illogical to issue an ultimatum to just one invader), and later his public claims of "help", supported by orders of Polish SQH not to fire upon Soviets, unless fired upon (which happened quite often, though), and the general lack of knowledge what happend in eastern Poland (and what would happen soon) weren't clear in the West. Of course the secret clauses of M-R pact that weren't known publicly at the time, were the cause of Soviet expansion (and in general the imperialism of a totalitarian regime ruling a world superpower). Later on, when the war dragged on and didn't seem easy anymore, it would be foolish of the Allies to add one more enemy to their list. They already had problems to contain Germany... If a war was to happen it would have to be declared before the invasion of France, with the higest probabilty between 17th September and 5th October 1939 and during the Winter War.

edit: hehe, I wrote in the similar vein as turtlefang, whose post I didn't read before writing mine :)
warspite1

As I said before, Britain and France had no intention of fighting the Soviets in Finland. The units were not "re-routed to Norway".

The British wanted to stop Iron-Ore being transferred to Germany via Narvik (the Gulf of Bothnia was closed due to ice in winter). They needed a reason to land troops on Norwegian soil however. The plan was to send troops to assist the Finns (Norway wouldn't object to us helping their Scandanavian brothers surely?) but....well what do you know? Now we are here lets hang out in Narvik. With the Germans likely to respond there is no way we can send troops on to Finland.. [:)]
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Mike29
It's generally known, yes we signed. What we had to do? All 38 and 39 we were trying to sign anty-german defensive alliance with you, and British politics except Churchill did not wanted to cooperate with us. Read Churchill, he said because of unwise British politics of that time (Baldwin, then Chamberlain) Russian army invaided to Poland not as their friends against Germany, but occupied former Russian territory as agressor (sorry for my English, I read him on Russian).

The British Government was unable to reach an agreement with the Soviet Government, because the Soviet position required agreement to provisions that the British Government was unwilling to force on other nations. We had just been through a period of attempted agreements to carve up parts of Europe with Hitler and that had failed to halt aggression, that policy had ended (Hitler was one who had failed to see that change). Stalin and Molotov turned to Hitler, who was prepared to negotiate a carve up of other nations, hence the rapid conclusion of the pact, with its secret protocol to partition Poland. Something that the Western Allies could never agree to, so it's not lack of co-operation from Britain, it's that Stalin's demands could not be fulfilled.

The Western Allies were hampered by years of dis-armament and France's concentration on a defensive policy (Maginot Line) leaving them unprepared to to quickly take offensive action. Britain's main power was always at sea and the naval blockade had eventually defeated the Central Powers in WW1 and would probably have been effective again in WW2, but it was not a quick fix and could not help Poland immediately.

The new Policy of the British Government and France was to confront any further aggression, by any of the totalitarian States, which is why the Western allies prepared a force to provide support to Finland, during the Winter War. We will never know how far support for Finland would have gone, but if Norway and Sweden had not refused transit permission for this force, the Allies could easily have been at war with the Soviet Union and Germany in 1940.

The guarantee to Poland was based on the threat that aggression against Poland, by Germany, would result in a war with the Britain, which Germany could not win. Hitler, not appreciating the change from the earlier failed appeasement policy, ignored the threat. The guarantee was genuine and Hitler eventually paid the price for ignoring it, but it could never help Poland in the short run, which the Allies knew. It was an all, or nothing, play, if it failed to deter Hitler, then the consequences would be a long war. The extension of the war into a World war, involving the USA, USSR and Japan, could not be certainly predicted at the time.

Poland was not former Russian territory, Eastern Poland was former Imperial Czarist Territory, it is an anomaly of the post-war period that, whilst the ex-Imperial nations were dismantling their empires, the Soviet Union was the only State which maintained the pre-1914 Imperial boundaries of the Czar. Whilst the USSR constantly castigated the filthy Western Imperialists, it was in fact the Soviet Union which became the last Imperial power, until 1989.[:)]




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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by elxaime »

I don't want to minimize or excuse the culpability of Hitler and Stalin for their evil. However the politics of this era were complicated. We should try to avoid falling too early into seeing this through the lens of the Cold War. At that time, the political divisions of Europe following World War One were still relatively fresh. For example:

- the prior year 1938 German annexation of Czechoslovakia also featured Polish and Hungarian land grabs of Czechoslovak territory, as well as the creation of the Slovak State (since recreated and now an EU member); the area of Czechoslovakia taken by Poland had a Polish minority

- the main Polish areas being claimed by the Soviet Union had existed as part of the Russian Czarist Empire for centuries. It is not hard to imagine, had the Russian Monarchy still existed, seeing France and Britain giving guarantees to the Czar for these lands. Certainly, the West did not go to war for Polish nationalism in 1914

- the Polish eastern regions were also subject to other nationalist claims. In 1919, the new Poland had fought not only the Bolshevists, but also the Lithuanians. Parts of 1939 Poland included lands taken from Lithuania in a plebiscite the Lithuanians had never recognized (Poland had issued an ultimatum to Lithuania in 1938). Newly-incorporated areas with ethnic Ukrainian majorities had to reluctantly be given local autonomy. The 1939 Polish state, like its German and Russian neighbors, envisioned itself as a multiethnic but caused tension by promoting the Polish language and culture over others

- For their part, prior to their own extinguishing, the Czechoslovak government had supported revision of the German-Polish frontiers and resisted Polish attempts to form an alliance (French attempts to form an alliance of the smaller Eastern European states during this time also failed)

In the churning environment following the collapse of the German, Russian and Hapsburg Monarchies, might was often right. Hitler, of course, took this to its most evil and genocidal and Stalin was not far behind. But even the smaller nations carried their own sets of brass knuckles around and didn't hesitate to use them on those perceived as weaker than they.

History has tended to brush these complexities under the rug. The most obvious example was a memorial I saw in Romania to their World War Two war dead. The dates on the memorial were 1944-45, leaving out the hundreds of thousands of casualties suffered when Romania was allied to Germany (the Japanese are hardly the only ones who practice historical revisionism).
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by Mike29 »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
... would result in a war with the Britain, which Germany could not win.

I'll comment just this one from the long post. Guys! You are just always lucky with the weather in Channel and your eternal eastern ally whom you always happy to stigmatize.
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by Mike29 »

ORIGINAL: elxaime

I don't want to minimize or excuse the culpability of Hitler and Stalin for their evil. However the politics of this era were complicated. We should try to avoid falling too early into seeing this through the lens of the Cold War. At that time, the political divisions of Europe following World War One were still relatively fresh. For example:

- the prior year 1938 German annexation of Czechoslovakia also featured Polish and Hungarian land grabs of Czechoslovak territory, as well as the creation of the Slovak State (since recreated and now an EU member); the area of Czechoslovakia taken by Poland had a Polish minority

- the main Polish areas being claimed by the Soviet Union had existed as part of the Russian Czarist Empire for centuries. It is not hard to imagine, had the Russian Monarchy still existed, seeing France and Britain giving guarantees to the Czar for these lands. Certainly, the West did not go to war for Polish nationalism in 1914

- the Polish eastern regions were also subject to other nationalist claims. In 1919, the new Poland had fought not only the Bolshevists, but also the Lithuanians. Parts of 1939 Poland included lands taken from Lithuania in a plebiscite the Lithuanians had never recognized (Poland had issued an ultimatum to Lithuania in 1938). Newly-incorporated areas with ethnic Ukrainian majorities had to reluctantly be given local autonomy. The 1939 Polish state, like its German and Russian neighbors, envisioned itself as a multiethnic but caused tension by promoting the Polish language and culture over others

- For their part, prior to their own extinguishing, the Czechoslovak government had supported revision of the German-Polish frontiers and resisted Polish attempts to form an alliance (French attempts to form an alliance of the smaller Eastern European states during this time also failed)

In the churning environment following the collapse of the German, Russian and Hapsburg Monarchies, might was often right. Hitler, of course, took this to its most evil and genocidal and Stalin was not far behind. But even the smaller nations carried their own sets of brass knuckles around and didn't hesitate to use them on those perceived as weaker than they.

History has tended to brush these complexities under the rug. The most obvious example was a memorial I saw in Romania to their World War Two war dead. The dates on the memorial were 1944-45, leaving out the hundreds of thousands of casualties suffered when Romania was allied to Germany (the Japanese are hardly the only ones who practice historical revisionism).

Exactly true.

BTW I've been to Museum of war history in Vienna, it has Hall of fame where names of all Austrian fieldmarshals, generals and elder officers lost in action during all wars since I dont remember, may be 1200. So, that list also does not enclude Austrian losses during WW2.
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by Mike29 »

ORIGINAL: elxaime

I don't want to minimize or excuse the culpability of Hitler and Stalin for their evil. However the politics of this era were complicated. We should try to avoid falling too early into seeing this through the lens of the Cold War. At that time, the political divisions of Europe following World War One were still relatively fresh. For example:

- the prior year 1938 German annexation of Czechoslovakia also featured Polish and Hungarian land grabs of Czechoslovak territory, as well as the creation of the Slovak State (since recreated and now an EU member); the area of Czechoslovakia taken by Poland had a Polish minority

- the main Polish areas being claimed by the Soviet Union had existed as part of the Russian Czarist Empire for centuries. It is not hard to imagine, had the Russian Monarchy still existed, seeing France and Britain giving guarantees to the Czar for these lands. Certainly, the West did not go to war for Polish nationalism in 1914

- the Polish eastern regions were also subject to other nationalist claims. In 1919, the new Poland had fought not only the Bolshevists, but also the Lithuanians. Parts of 1939 Poland included lands taken from Lithuania in a plebiscite the Lithuanians had never recognized (Poland had issued an ultimatum to Lithuania in 1938). Newly-incorporated areas with ethnic Ukrainian majorities had to reluctantly be given local autonomy. The 1939 Polish state, like its German and Russian neighbors, envisioned itself as a multiethnic but caused tension by promoting the Polish language and culture over others

- For their part, prior to their own extinguishing, the Czechoslovak government had supported revision of the German-Polish frontiers and resisted Polish attempts to form an alliance (French attempts to form an alliance of the smaller Eastern European states during this time also failed)

In the churning environment following the collapse of the German, Russian and Hapsburg Monarchies, might was often right. Hitler, of course, took this to its most evil and genocidal and Stalin was not far behind. But even the smaller nations carried their own sets of brass knuckles around and didn't hesitate to use them on those perceived as weaker than they.

History has tended to brush these complexities under the rug. The most obvious example was a memorial I saw in Romania to their World War Two war dead. The dates on the memorial were 1944-45, leaving out the hundreds of thousands of casualties suffered when Romania was allied to Germany (the Japanese are hardly the only ones who practice historical revisionism).

Exactly true. Except this.
and Stalin was not far behind



BTW I've been to Museum of war history in Vienna, it has Hall of fame where names of all Austrian fieldmarshals, generals and elder officers lost in action during all wars since I dont remember, may be 1200. So, that list also does not enclude Austrian losses during WW2.
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Mike29
ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
... would result in a war with the Britain, which Germany could not win.

I'll comment just this one from the long post. Guys! You are just always lucky with the weather in Channel and your eternal eastern ally whom you always happy to stigmatize.

Not necessarily the weather, but the Channel does make a very good anti-tank ditch and the first integrated radar air defence system certainly helped, Hitler could not win the war in 1940 (i.e. before the USSR was fully involved), nor could he just sit and wait, as the naval blockade would slowly have begun to take effect. It doesn't matter how you win, you use whatever is available and the weather does help, especially on the eastern front.[;)]

I was speculating what would have happened if the war had not developed into a full scale world war, involving the USA, USSR and Japan, but when these counties entered the war it is clear that the US and principally the USSR won the war against Germany. Britain probably could not lose the war, but US and Soviet resources made the victory certain.

Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of WW2, will know the huge contribution and cost to the people of the USSR, but that doesn't remove the fact the Nazi-Soviet pact was the trigger to the tragedy that followed. Britain was not prepared to sign up to the deal that Stalin was demanding, as the price for co-operation, having just been through the same sordid failed process with Hitler.
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by bednarre »

Why didn't France and Great Britain declare war on Russia in September 1939?

(1) With Poland obviously overrun by the Germans, why take on two superpowers?
(2) An Allied/Soviet alliance was inevitable given Hitler's lust for territory
(3) The Allies were not prepared to attack Germany in 1939/1940, much less the Soviet Union
a) Late Mobilization
b) Lack of national unity to master Europe
c) Relatively small armies in Democracies compared with the dictatorships
d) How do we get to Russia?

Nevertheless, some idiots advocated attacking the Causcasian oil fields in Russia in relation for their surpise invasion of Finland. Fortunately the upper levels of Great Britain's military (i.e., non-civilian) leadership made some blunt remarks about true capabilities. Remember Europe's long memory for lost wars (Crimean, Franco-Prussian, Russo-Japanese, etc.). Allied offensive capability at the time is best summed up by the Narvik "Expedition".
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: Mike29
ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
... would result in a war with the Britain, which Germany could not win.

I'll comment just this one from the long post. Guys! You are just always lucky with the weather in Channel and your eternal eastern ally whom you always happy to stigmatize.

......It doesn't matter how you win, you use whatever is available and the weather does help, especially on the eastern front.[;)]
warspite1

[:D] Yeah... just twice at least the Russkies have been saved by General Winter. How many times has the weather come to our rescue?....Er, the Spanish Armada and...that's about it.
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
[:D] Yeah... just twice at least the Russkies have been saved by General Winter. How many times has the weather come to our rescue?....Er, the Spanish Armada and...that's about it.

Battle against the Spanish Armada was already won by the time the weather intervened, they were heading home having failed in their mission to pick up the Duke de Palma's invasion army (which wasn't ready).

By all accounts 1940 was a fine summer, we won despite the weather, which favoured German air operations. D-Day also succeeded despite the weather, so no help there, the British Mulberry harbour survived the July storm, good engineering beat the weather. [:)]
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RE: Semi-OT: Why didn't Britain and France declare war on Soviet Union in 1939 when it attacked Poland?

Post by vinnie71 »

One factor that is normally not kept in mind is the obduracy of the eastern countries in resisting having the Red Army on thier soil - given that there was no way in which to kick it out again.

Keep in mind that most eastern countries at the time were:

a) regimes that were mostly totalitarian in nature, and strongly anti communist in conception
b) had strong antipathy against the Russians both on a national basis and due to ideology
c) they had spent 2 decades looking over their shoulders from the percieved Red danger
d) many had strong feelings to their other neighbours as well and grudges to settle

There was no way in which the British or the French, who were percieved as distant and not too trusty powers, could actually get all these states to act in concert against anyone. It must be noted that the emergence of Hitler's Germany was not viewed with the dismay we think in all quarters. Also the strong bartering and trading that was going on between the individual states and Germany from Hitler's accession made them loath to lose German support (compare this with the rather closed trade policies that the British and French and their empires practiced following the economic crisis with Germany's keen need for raw materials and agricultural products and its willingness to use her economic clout for political ends). In point of fact, only Czechoslovakia and Poland really needed to fear German territorial expansionism (and the latter tried hard to strike a bargain), with the rest viewing Germany as potential allies against the USSR. Also keep in mind that France and UK had actually turned their back on international affairs in eastern europe and paid the price accordingly when they were snubbed by those they were supposed to be saving - the very idea that Britain or France could actually strong arm or convince any of the Eastern European countries to accept the Red Army on their soil in '39 is preposterous.

As to the original scenario, what a lot of posters have said is right - no one wanted to take on 2 giants. Also there were extra European issues that mattered in the equation - ex Iran. The USSR if stung into attacking British interests, could easily overrun Iran and cut Britain off from her main source of oil. The USSR also possessed a powerful submarine fleet and bases in the North Sea and the Pacific that could inflict painful losses to the then overstretched RN escorts. This aside from the fact that there was always the lingering fear that it would somehow go for the crown jewel of India...
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