President FDR Knew About the Attack in May?

[Footslogger]

Why didn't the Japs send out another wave to attack the fuel depots? What would have happened if they did?

[Commander Stormwolf]

second wave was quite risky, since the carriers were not in port

third wave would be totally pointless

japanese had no possible hope of reducing allied oil/supply resources

so they never bothered


german naval attache was begging the japanese to attack allied merchant ships, but the japanese were more sensible

and used their submarines to attack warships (and caused serious damage during 1942)

wasp/yorktown/saratoga torpedoed, without IJN subs, 1942 would have been a total disaster

but 1943 / 1944 / 1945 allied naval superiority forced the submarines to be used to haul food to island garrisons

[Nami Koshino]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Why didn't the Japs send out another wave to attack the fuel depots? What would have happened if they did?

Because Nagumo was amazed that he had pulled off the surprise attack with minor losses. The Japanese had expected to lose perhaps two carriers in the operation. He probably thought he would be pushing his luck by sticking around.

Besides, what good would destroying the fuel depots at Pearl do to the most oil rich nation on the earth? Especially when the most fuel hungry ships in the fleet were resting on the harbor bottom or destroyed? Hardly a major setback.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert

How strange-what a small world! I have a friend in the UK that is a pervert. I wonder if that makes me related to your Grandfather? Or perhaps my friend in the UK is related to your grandfather? [&:]

I won't divulge the name of my pervert friend in the UK, but just ask you a completely unrelated question. Have you seen the "Australian Beauties" thread on the General Forum? Go and vote for your favorites now!

[jetjockey]

The theory that FDR had prior knowledge of and even abetted the attack on Pearl Harbor has always amused me since this would have made FDR some evil Machiavellian geopolitical super-genius. The necessary complicity of large segments of the military and government would have been a gross violation of Occam’s razor. A much simpler and more logical explanation would be that considering Japan’s precarious strategic situation, FDR chose to bully Imperial Japan into submission with regards to China. FDR erred by completely underestimating Japan’s psyche and was caught off guard by Japan’s rising militancy. FDR’s response was to launch an emergency military building program while ordering our Pacific forces into a passive pose in order to minimize the risk of unintentional conflict. Unfortunately for the U.S., this passivity was viewed by the Japanese as weakness.

Regardless of whether FDR was a super-genius or a super-nit whit, it was once again the blood of America’s soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines that had to be spilt to amend for the mistakes of our politicians. Remember this on Veteran's Day.

[Commander Stormwolf]

well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: slinkytwf

ORIGINAL: moonraker
...but you have to ponder the fact that the Japanese main targets were out of the way that day which does leave some doubts it has to be said

You don't need to ponder that at all. Reading is sufficient to debunk it. Samuel E. Morison lays it out plainly in the official US Navy history. Everyone from the political leadership on down through the admiralty and general staff was expecting an attack, and had been on some level of alert for weeks. The Enterprise had been sent to deliver a squadron of Wildcats to Wake I. Halsey and Nimitz had discussed the Japanese threat before Enterprise left Pearl, and Halsey was of the opinion that if his TF so much as saw a Japanese fishing boat he'd blow it out of the water (and Nimitz apparently gave him permission to do so). I *think* Saratoga was on her way back to Pearl having come up through Panama. Can't remember what Lexington was up to (doing this off top of my head). Fact checkers can correct my memory if it is off.

You mean Kimmel - when Halsey took Enterprise to Wake, Nimitz wasn't at Pearl yet. Lady Lex was en route to Midway to deliver scout bombers. Sara was at San Diego picking up her air group after overhaul at Puget Sound Naval Yard.

About the myth of the "missing main targets" see http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/Missing_Carriers.html - it concludes:

"Enterprise and Lexington were out of port on Dec. 7th under orders of Adm. Kimmel, not anyone in Washington D.C. Enterprise would have made it back into port on Dec. 5th if the weather hadn't delayed her. No human being prevented her from being there on the 7th. It was widely known that she was scheduled to be there on that date. After the start of hostilities both carriers were directed to locate and engage the enemy, despite facing unknown odds. It cannot be said, then that the carriers were "safely out of port" if they are just going to be sent to look for trouble when the shooting starts.

Given the above information it is clear that there was no "grand strategy" to save the carriers by someone who "knew" that the next war would be dominated by flat-tops. It is also clear that there were 8 "old and useless" battleships in Pearl that day because one of our most respected and talented admiral ordered three of them to proceed under normal schedule and return to harbor on the 6th. And finally, it is also clear that the carriers, instead of being wrapped in cotton and stashed away in a box like fragile Christmas ornaments, were being used as warships with orders to seek, locate and destroy. If there was any conspiracy surrounding Pearl Harbor it did not include carrier conservation in its plans."

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert

How strange-what a small world! I have a friend in the UK that is a pervert. I wonder if that makes me related to your Grandfather? Or perhaps my friend in the UK is related to your grandfather? [&:]

I won't divulge the name of my pervert friend in the UK, but just ask you a completely unrelated question. Have you seen the "Australian Beauties" thread on the General Forum? Go and vote for your favorites now!

warspite1

[:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf
my grandfather had a friend in germany, who was a pervert

How strange-what a small world! I have a friend in the UK that is a pervert. I wonder if that makes me related to your Grandfather? Or perhaps my friend in the UK is related to your grandfather? [&:]

I won't divulge the name of my pervert friend in the UK, but just ask you a completely unrelated question. Have you seen the "Australian Beauties" thread on the General Forum? Go and vote for your favorites now!

warspite1

[:D]

warspite1

Oh and btw, the current competition - to celebrate 50 years of the longest running film franchise - is for the best i.e. most beautiful, Bond Girl. We have reached the last four, these being:

Izabella Scorupco (Poland) - Natalya Simonova - GoldenEye
Jane Seymour (United Kingdom) - Solitaire - Live and Let Die
Olga Kurylenko (France) - Camille - Quantum of Solace
Eva Green (France) - Vesper Lynd - Casino Royale

I would welcome your votes.

[geofflambert]

I'm not even sure the Japanese knew about the attack in May.

[Banzan]

In general, most theories of conspiration fail the main test: How many people would have known of it, and for how long?
One person can keep a secret for his/her life, 2 people and its already difficult, 3 or more and its nearly impossible, 5+ and its impossible.

For example, "if" Richard Sorge would have informed Stalin about the attack in May '41 already and Stalin would have decided to tell the americans immediately about it, how many people would have known about it already, till President Roosvelt would have got the message?

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?

What is your problem?

...and I thought my wife was crazy.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Can some JFB tell us when the japanese planned the PH attack?

warspite1

Have a look at FDR's personal diary... he knew all about it apparently. On reflection it was probably his idea, and he discussed the details over tea with Tojo (with whom he was having an affair) - see post 7.

Probably when they met Churchill who knew as well when they were on board the real Titanic. But of course Wiston would've already known as the Royal Family would have known, as part of the Illuminati (and undercover space lizards to boot) they would have secretly been pulling the strings behind everything that happened during WW2. It's probably the same venue when they decided to fake the moon landings and assassinate Kennedy.

The truth is out there! They just don't want you to know. Oh, hello nurse, time for my pills already?

[jetjockey]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?

What is your problem?

...and I thought my wife was crazy.

FDR Fanboy. [&:]

[Grfin Zeppelin]

After reading this thread I am certainly a bit dumber than before...thanks for that. [:-]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Dixie
Oh, hello nurse, time for my pills already?

I ask this on behalf of a certain pervert I know from the UK: "What is your nurse wearing?"

Again, completely unrelated to this is the fierce voting underway in Warspite1's "Australian Beauties" thread. Get out the vote!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Dixie
Oh, hello nurse, time for my pills already?

I ask this on behalf of a certain pervert I know from the UK: "What is your nurse wearing?"

Again, completely unrelated to this is the fierce voting underway in Warspite1's "Australian Beauties" thread. Get out the vote!

warspite1

I think you are flogging a dead horse on the AB front CB [&:] But thank-you anyway.......

[obvert]

The only useful piece of information in this entire thread is ... Jane Seymour.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: obvert

The only useful piece of information in this entire thread is ... Jane Seymour.

warspite1

In which case obvert old son, may I suggest you head off to the General Discussion forum and the Australian Beauties thread? The luvverrlly Ms Seymour needs your vote! as do either Olga Kurylenko or Eva Green [:)]

[ilovestrategy]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


well at least back then they declared war on the country who attacked them

didn't the us just fight a war in iraq for 8 years, for no reason?

Well at least you're not talking about Japanese float planes attacking the West Coast and interrupting US production.