Player Control

Scourge of War is the definitive American Civil War grand tactical wargame of this generation. With impressive 3D graphics, an award-winning AI, pausable real-time play, historical battlefield terrain and orders of battle down to the regiment and battery level, Scourge of War captures the tactical challenges that faced the real Union and Confederate commanders more than 130 years ago.

This forum covers the main game Gettysburg and its two expansions Antietam, Pipe Creek, and Chancellorsville!

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Queeg
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RE: Player Control

Post by Queeg »

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

.... the whole changing position thing every time a Bde needs to adjust its fire 5 degrees......

This is the essence of the problem. The pathing is OK - not perfect, but units generally end up in reasonable positions. It's what happens after they get there that's the problem. Instead of minor readjustments, they too often do the wheel about the center routine. It's like the AI doesn't know how to use the / and \ pivot buttons.

A common situation: I'll have a brigade facing an enemy brigade - all good. But then an enemy appears and lines up next to the other brigade, overlapping my flank. What my unit should do is refuse that flank - step back a few paces on the overlapped flank. But instead they often go into the wheel about the center movement, laboriously pivoting on their center while getting blasted by two enemy brigades.

Units in TC don't do this. It's a glaring difference between the two games.
Garnier
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RE: Player Control

Post by Garnier »

Right, the pathing is fine. By default they don't allow regiments to march through each other, that's all it is. This gets complicated so people who don't understand get really frustrated.

However, using waypoints, players can get regiments to go exactly where they want. What we need is more player education on how to use waypoints effectively. It's easy once you get used to it -- but I don't think it's obvious. Maybe youtube videos demonstrating it would be helpful.
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Phoenix100
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RE: Player Control

Post by Phoenix100 »

Well, he's not talking about pathing, Garnier. He's talking about when they get to the end of the path and line up. But I think the point has been made and accepted.

As to using waypoints - I can't get that to work. The tutorial says press control and double click. Doesn't work.
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Queeg
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RE: Player Control

Post by Queeg »

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Well, he's not talking about pathing, Garnier. He's talking about when they get to the end of the path and line up.

Right. The units are too "jumpy." They reposition themselves too often and too dramatically. They move almost every time a new enemy appears. And they pivot too much (i.e., 45 degrees when 5-10 would do).

It's a great game otherwise. But this one area is a step backward from the TC games.
Garnier
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RE: Player Control

Post by Garnier »

Sorry I replied to phoenix's post but it got lost somehow.

To use waypoints, hold CTRL and give a sequence of double-click movement orders. Then the regiment will follow this sequence exactly, and if each segment is unblocked by other units, they'll not do any unusual pathfinding.

As for pivoting, players can solve this by TCing -- TCed regiments don't wheel on their own. But for the AI, I agree they should avoid wheeling unnecessarily. The problem is deciding what their optimal facing is, and not just that, but how do you get them to face the right way always without wheeling? Perhaps a threshold where they won't change facing until the alternate facing is a certain "amount" better, which is influenced by time. But I can imagine this stuff is really complicated to code without loopholes.
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Redmarkus5
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RE: Player Control

Post by Redmarkus5 »

ORIGINAL: Queeg
ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

.... the whole changing position thing every time a Bde needs to adjust its fire 5 degrees......

This is the essence of the problem. The pathing is OK - not perfect, but units generally end up in reasonable positions. It's what happens after they get there that's the problem. Instead of minor readjustments, they too often do the wheel about the center routine. It's like the AI doesn't know how to use the / and \ pivot buttons.

A common situation: I'll have a brigade facing an enemy brigade - all good. But then an enemy appears and lines up next to the other brigade, overlapping my flank. What my unit should do is refuse that flank - step back a few paces on the overlapped flank. But instead they often go into the wheel about the center movement, laboriously pivoting on their center while getting blasted by two enemy brigades.

Units in TC don't do this. It's a glaring difference between the two games.

Exactly...
WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2
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Redmarkus5
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RE: Player Control

Post by Redmarkus5 »

ORIGINAL: Garnier

Sorry I replied to phoenix's post but it got lost somehow.

To use waypoints, hold CTRL and give a sequence of double-click movement orders. Then the regiment will follow this sequence exactly, and if each segment is unblocked by other units, they'll not do any unusual pathfinding.

As for pivoting, players can solve this by TCing -- TCed regiments don't wheel on their own. But for the AI, I agree they should avoid wheeling unnecessarily. The problem is deciding what their optimal facing is, and not just that, but how do you get them to face the right way always without wheeling? Perhaps a threshold where they won't change facing until the alternate facing is a certain "amount" better, which is influenced by time. But I can imagine this stuff is really complicated to code without loopholes.

A couple of observations.

1. In reality, infantry don't generally wheel to change their direction of fire within a 45 degree angle left or right of the main axis (i.e. 90 degrees total) - they just swing their muzzles left or right by the required degree. So, any rifle unit should be able to cover three times its front without changing location or facing - use an 'arc of fire' approach and many issues will be fixed.

2. When a unit does wheel it normally does this in relation to a right or left 'marker' (the man in the front rank on the extreme right or left of the file). It wheels around that right or leftmost point, not around its centre - the direction of the threat determines which flank becomes the centre of the wheel. This might seem like a minor thing, but I bet the business of troops running from left to right flank would go away if wheeling was designed this way.

3. A civil war infantry unit should focus on conforming to terrain rather than keeping a straight line. There are many games on the market that have cracked this.

Focus on this and the game will leap ahead by one great big stride.
WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2
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wolf14455
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RE: Player Control

Post by wolf14455 »

ORIGINAL: Little Powell

The main advantage of TW over SoW is the campaign level. Of course, in SoW you are pretty much locked into the historical set of battles plus some what-ifs, but you don't make any strategic choices that affect what happens next. I find SoW somewhat boring after fighting each battle once for this reason. No overall objective.

I just wish the two developers could get together somehow.

Well the current SOW engine was designed for tactical combat with no grand decisions, hence the historical scenarios and what ifs. It is a historical battle simulator, which is why each release concentrates on a specific battle.

However, stay with us and you just you might get your wish of a campaign style game... :)

Very nice!! Campaign and good tactical AI !! I like. Bytheway New owner of gettysburg since Monday.
SwedeWolf

I was called Lill Sputnik (Little sputnik) as a baby in 58-59
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Queeg
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RE: Player Control

Post by Queeg »


A couple of observations.

1. In reality, infantry don't generally wheel to change their direction of fire within a 45 degree angle left or right of the main axis (i.e. 90 degrees total) - they just swing their muzzles left or right by the required degree. So, any rifle unit should be able to cover three times its front without changing location or facing - use an 'arc of fire' approach and many issues will be fixed.

2. When a unit does wheel it normally does this in relation to a right or left 'marker' (the man in the front rank on the extreme right or left of the file). It wheels around that right or leftmost point, not around its centre - the direction of the threat determines which flank becomes the centre of the wheel. This might seem like a minor thing, but I bet the business of troops running from left to right flank would go away if wheeling was designed this way.

3. A civil war infantry unit should focus on conforming to terrain rather than keeping a straight line. There are many games on the market that have cracked this.

Focus on this and the game will leap ahead by one great big stride.

These are good suggestions, but frankly the problem is even more profound. I'm convinced that the unit formation coding is fundamentally broken.

Do this: Do the first tutorial. When the regiment shows up, order it into line formation. Then order About Face. Sometimes, the men simply turn around. But about half the time, the line snakes in on itself - the guy on the right flank marching to the left flank, the guy on the left flank marching to the right flank, and everyone waving to each other as they pass in the center. It looks more like a spirit line at the end of a grade school girls' soccer match than a Civil War regiment.

I just finished a sandbox match that provided one of the most ridiculous experiences I've had in 20 years of computer gaming. Sad.
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