Random maps

[Jafele]

Is it possible for the future a random map generator?

Thanks

[Arjuna]

Jafele,

Thanks for your suggestion. This won't be an easy undertaking but it is an interesting one.

[wodin]

Hmmm...not sure I'd be interested or would want your time spent on something that is creating fantasy scenarios. Also the only way I could see it working is geomap boards..but even then your only getting a certain number of permutations.

I would put it too the wider community first. I imagine we will get more user created scenarios when the East front game comes out anyway.
PS I'd also imagine it being next to impossible for the game to create obj's on those generated maps aswell and make the scenario in anyway balanced.

[rfrizz]

This is an interesting idea. It would be REALLY cool for a small-unit (company and smaller) game because it would be pretty close to what happens when a small company moves into an area (particularly for war before GPS). A commander doesn't know what is in or beyond that stand of trees, or what is over the crest of that rolling hill. Better send a patrol to see... Even though this would involve a 100% fantasy/hypothetical scenario,

This isn't an original idea, but I think an interesting and realistic feature would be to display the map as blank except for the places that have been seen. If you send an observer up a tower, there would be more area visible.

Panther Games does business with the military, and I can see this as being a useful tool in training and education and education of squad commanders, platoon commanders, and company commanders.


Just my two cents.

[Jafele]

Absolutely. Random maps are a very good tool for training due to the surprise factor, so random battles have endless possibilities. I like the idea of design my own battles with a few clicks. On the other hand sooner or later you´ll know every scenario included in the game and how to win it. Anyway, both options can live together.

[Jafele]

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[Jafele]

A question for Arjuna: In case some day a random map generator would be available for Command Ops (cross my fingers [:D]), Will it be difficult to adapt the AI behaviour to random battles? In other words: Will react the AI in the same way that a common scenario with initial fixed deployment? I know this game is quite challenging for single player scenarios, but would it be so good in random battles?

Thanks

[Lieste]

The AI *is* an AI, so it analyses and adapts it's plan according to the known situation/intel picture and the objective list.

While a lot of scenarios made from 'just throwing stuff on a (random) bit of map' will be stupid this is the nature of 'random' creators ~ real world situations can be chaotic and unpredictable, but they aren't random ~ also many situations are untenable and are not suitable for 'main point of effort' defence or attack situations.

[Arjuna]

Jafele,

One of the real strengths of the Cmd Ops engine is that it uses a generic AI not scenario specific scripting. Most games use the latter which means that for each new scenario they have to write up all the scripts to govern how the specific forces behave for this specific scenario. In Cmd ops the entities are situationally aware - ie they can identify and analyse the world around them. They can also develop plans to achieve their objectives. They can react to enemy and changes in the environment, like blown bridges. They can reassess their plan if things are not progressing as they should.

So for random generation of scenarios what would be required is first a means to either select a map from an existing set of maps or generate a random map (much harder). You would also have to determine the state of each crossing.

Then you would need to decide on the objectives for each side - what type, where and for how long they would be active. You need to determine the victory points assigned to each objective.

Next you need to decide on the force OBs for each side, including whether they start on map or arrive as reinforcements, where they start on the map, at what strengths and effectiveness.

You also need to determine the weather, air schedules and resupply schedules.

I've probably forgotten something but as you can see it's not a trivial undertaking to write some AI to handle all that.

[dazkaz15]

edit: Deleted post.

Posted in the wrong thread.

No idea how that happend [&:]

[RockinHarry]

I too think that random map generation could be a major undertaking, though I´d support the "idea" generally. Most games I know that are capable of random map generation...failed at it. Particularly with regard to "realism" of landscapes at least.

Placement of Obj locations would be another issue, but I think certain rule sets could be developed, so that Obj Locs won´t be placed at "operationally" senseless places. Urban areas, crossing points, crossroads ect. would make some good pointers.

So all in all maybe a good idea for a probable CO2, but in hindsight of the WIP state of LOTB, Chir ect., I´d say there´s more important stuff to work on, for making these the most realistic and fun experience.[:)]

[Jafele]

All of you know most of pc games have a really weak AI full of cheats (and shits). The fact is that when a game include a random map generator its AI behaivour is poor in comparison with fixed scenarios. As Arjuna said, Comd Ops engine is that it uses a generic AI not scenario specific scripting. Arjuna, I consider Cmd Ops has an exceptional AI [&o], that´s one of the reasons I would love a random map generator for the game. IMO random maps are a good test to any AI. Of course it must be a really hard work that takes a long time so I hope one of these days...

[wodin]

I'm with Leiste..random map generator really doesn't excite me at all..

Far better is either put the effort into making maps yourself or some sort of map maker that makes making maps as easy as possible.

Random map maker...no thanks.

[Jafele]

Far better is either put the effort into making maps yourself or some sort of map maker that makes making maps as easy as possible.

Not all of us have enough free time to make maps, on the other hand I find easier to make a map with a few clicks instead of using some sort of map maker. Just my opinion.

[altipueri]

I think to not have a random scenario generator is a potential waste of briliant AI. As has been mentioned the AI is situationally aware, not script driven.

Why not keep the maps that have been made for the games in Aegean, Arnhem, Bulge but have some random selection of forces and objectives. Sid Meier's Gettysburg has this and I still enjoy a quick game. Combat Mission 1 had terrain generation and force selection - again I play it occasionally, and still enjoy it more than the recent version. Advanced Tactics has it but I find the continual production not as enjoyable as being told "this is what you've - take that town - you may have some cavalry coming up soon"

Of course it is not as "realistic" as a detailed sceario with exact historical forces and supply but I think it would add immensley to the appeal because the game would have almost infinite re-playability. Games with a specific number of scenarios (such as AGEOD's which I've got) always leave me feeling that I don't want to "use up all my ammo."

[Arjuna]

Random map generation with our map structures and hi fidelity terrain grid would be a real challenge. However a more feasible option would be to select a map from one of the existing set of maps and then create a random set of objectives and choose a random order of battle for each side. that would be more do-able.

[Jafele]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Random map generation with our map structures and hi fidelity terrain grid would be a real challenge. However a more feasible option would be to select a map from one of the existing set of maps and then create a random set of objectives and choose a random order of battle for each side. that would be more do-able.

+1

It´s much better than nothing and also would be a good start for a future real random map generator [:D]. Still I think many people is not really conscious about this powerful AI and its endless possibilities.

[Phoenix100]

+1 to Wodin and Lieste. Doesn't interest me at all. Many more things I would rather see development time put into, especially since to do (almost) what is being asked - take a map and customise it, put your own force on it etc is very easy using the tools available - you just have to be prepared to put the initial time in to learn how to use the scenmaker, and that's not too much time, really (and enjoyable). You could learn it enough to get going in the time it would take you to play through the Hofen scenario. It's the beautiful, accurate, historical real world maps that get me.

[dazkaz15]

I think a better way of doing this would be to have a centralised location on line where all the user made scenarios are stored, so that people can load a list of them from within the game start-up menu.
The creator of them can write a description to go in the left area as its clicked on in the list, and maybe even people can rate them by giving stars. Of course this list would only be updated when you are online and click on the load user scenarios button.
This way there will be plenty of random maps, and probably even some great historical user made scenarios to choose from as well.
What do you think?

[Phoenix100]

This way there will be plenty of random maps, and probably even some great historical user made scenarios to choose from as well.

If someone makes them there will be.....

You can already get user-made scenarios (I think there might be 8 of them...) from the Matrix site, Daz, or this forum. The absence of these things isn't due to a lack of a place to put and find them, it's due to poeple not making them.

Myself, I have really loved the handful of scenarios that have been produced. The recent Brabant pack was outstanding, and the Woensdrecht scenario is still one of my favourites. But there's plenty to play still in the actual games. Still haven't played at least a quarter of what's available in BFTB and HTTR, because each scenario is so replayable, so I've ended up stuck with favourites.

Be even more when the COTA pack is out.

I have, of course, myself (like you, probably) adapted about twenty or so maps/scenarios and played them. But I wouldn't think to upload them because they're minor tinkerings of the kind anyone can put together just by messing around with the Scenmaker.