Strategic and Tactical AI - How good is it?

[PKH]

Can you give me an example of the sort of order you're giving that's causing the vehicles to turn around at the end?

I always use slow speed for reverse, and the last time I saw this I gave a reverse ~50m straight back, linked with a another 50m reverse maybe 30 degrees off. I did this for 2 tanks which were standing near each other, and when I checked them again, they were both pointing 180 degrees off. I've seen the same behaviour when just reversing straight back in the earlier games after the last pathfinding patch. I can test it a bit tomorrow, but I don't think it's hard to reproduce it.

Edit: Just did a quick test on the 1st battle (Avranches). Starting the mission with default positions, give a reverse order of 30+ meters to any of the pz IV's, and it will likely rotate 180 degrees after reaching the objective. My guess is that it moves beyond the objective and has to turn around to reverse back to it. It doesn't happen every time, but fairly often.

Another example regarding tanks not moving straight: I had a tank sitting on an east-west road. The tank was pointing west, and I gave an order for it to drive 100 west on the road. The first thing it does is rotate 45 degrees, drive off the road, then drive beside the road a bit, before driving back onto the road and continuing to the objective. Not sure if this has to do with the AI trying to use cover, but it's really annoying.

[ComradeP]

Based on a couple of battles, I haven't noticed any improvements in pathing compared to the last patches for the other games. There still seems to be a big difference in what the pathing works with compared to what the player sees. Tanks will still pivot left and right when given what looks like an easy short forwards movement, especially when done in streets near buildings.

If tanks still zig-zag instead of moving in a line, I won't be buying the game. No idea why it's difficult to fix, but it was annoying as hell in CoI as it made getting across fords or (sometimes) bridges in a short amount of time virtually impossible, whilst the zig-zagging exposed the sides to enemy fire.

That's the killer: the way zig-zagging exposes the sides and thus makes tanks that would otherwise be safe, because their frontal armour can't be penetrated aside from at short range, just as vulnerable as tanks with weaker armour.

I'm not interested in seeing my Panthers zig-zag towards Shermans or bazooka teams.

[MikeGER]

i just witnessed an interesting 'situational awareness'-reaction of a tank

if that was programmed into the AI ? and not just 'coincidental', that would be really cool !

i ordered a Sherman down a dirt road on the La Roche map (from North to South) with a chain of several Move waypoints (on the road)
while the Sherman was on the move he got shot at by a German tank from the right, the tank round missed short behind him.
now the Sherman left the road, drove behind a row of trees flanking the road, drove parallel to the road but behind the concealment of the trees, and when he came parallel to the next waypoint on the road he turned back to the road, drove over the waypoint, and moved on to the next...
there was no visible object blocking the road.


I rebuild the situation for the ilustration: green path = the path driven , red arrow = impact of German shell (after the tank had passed that)

[SteveMcClaire]

ORIGINAL: PKH
I always use slow speed for reverse, and the last time I saw this I gave a reverse ~50m straight back, linked with a another 50m reverse maybe 30 degrees off...

Thanks. By 'linked with' do you mean you're using multiple waypoints in the move order?

[PKH]

Thanks. By 'linked with' do you mean you're using multiple waypoints in the move order?

Yes, but as I said in the edited part, it's easy to reproduce with just one 30+ meter reverse order in slow speed on f.ex. the 1st battle.

[WoT]

Tanks won't drive down roads bordered by Large hedgerpws.

They will head for a wide open field instead.

this requires them to climb the hedgrow and often lose a track.

it may be the maps coding in PitF but pathfinding seemed better in LSA

[WoT]

if that was programmed into the AI ? and not just 'coincidental', that would be really cool !

I think that is a pathfinding problem.

the tank wont travel down the avenue of trees instead heading for an open field.

Same problem with hedgerows

[WoT]

re: mikeGer's picture.

Why are all the trees exctly the same?

[MikeGER]

becaus they are from the same breed, planted at the same time [:)]
(picture from a French rural alley ...well, southern wine region in this example)


Steve,
is there a 'situational awareness' of close by hits or blasts in the units AI routines?

[WoT]

hmmm... they are similar... not identical.

[WoT]

see, each is different

[MikeGER]

sure !
but its still a Close Combat sim, not a Close Gardening sim. [;)]

its not a problem to generate trees that are different with special software routines build in , even on the fly every new game,
but would you have liked to pay 400$ instead of 40$ to get that level of detail ?
...
as a work-around the map (overlay) is just a 'picture' and can be modded
(but the overlay should still fit to the underlaying grid of 'object types' of course)

[WoT]

It's called immersion... cookie cutters take away the immersion.




Same with tanks not travelling where they should, but a bigger problem than cookie cutter trees.

[MikeGER]

sure thing!

i hope Matrix had put most of the 'unseen' effort in AI routines, then in graphics, ...well, we are here to find that out[:)]
(i prefer a non-immersion-killing behavoir of pixel troops, over a few graphic slack-offs)

[Stwa]

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

ORIGINAL: PKH

The problem I have with reverse, is that after it is done and the tank has come to a stop, it will usually turn around 180 degrees unless given a defend/ambush order.

Can you give me an example of the sort of order you're giving that's causing the vehicles to turn around at the end?

I see it in CCMT some times. When a vehicle (tanks included), finish their move (any move). Sometimes they feel the need to face in a direction that I assume the vehicle commander feels is important. (could be up to 180 degrees)

Most of the time, it is not the facing I would prefer for the vehicle, so it requires that I re-position it with a defend or ambush order as PKH mentioned.

I use this alot so a tank doesn't get shot in its rear or side.

And yes, players should use Move Fast and Move Covert (CCMT commands), for short distance moves forward and backward that usually ALWAYS follow the blue line to the waypoint.

[Stwa]

Is it possible for any player or maybe even Matrix to start a screenshot thread for this game?

I would like to see more pics than what is persented on the product page.

[Redmarkus5]

Yep... that's basically what I'd figured.

Back to AP and DCCB

[MikeGER]

in the mean time i had found time to run some more 'Sherman driving tests' on that La Roche map area (my screenshot)

Sorry, its NOT a reaction to threats!

immersion speak on*

...it looks like there is some disturbance in the soil on that dirt road (not visible from so far above) that the Tankers think it could be a hastily buried AT mine. They play it save, and so they decide to circumvent that piece of road

immersion speak off*

[Rosseau]

My brain and eye functions have deteriorated significantly since the intro of CoI [;)]

So I barely notice these pathing issues. I do notice PitF has come a loooong way from CoI. Good job.

[xe5]

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
For example, when on defense, is AI prone to put squads in the middle of open terrain when there are buildings nearby? When on attack, does he just rush his units towards objectives via shortest (and possibly deadleist) route or it is paying more attention to cover, flanks etc.?

The AI makes better use of cover and concealment (bldgs & hedges) prior to and during battle. If caught in the open it will seek to go into Ambush mode where its soldier sprites are replaced by a unit icon which then gradually fades from view, much like CC1's 'ghost soldiers'. Firing at enemy icons is treated as area fire rather than targeted fire and is consideraby less effective.

It doesnt recognize and avoid kill zones but also doesnt always attack via the most direct approach. It is actually most effective when it rushes an attack. AI troops sometimes seem to have a Fast+ speed similar to fleeing crews. Much preferable to the old crawl-of-death.

The AI is noticeably fatser at spotting and suppressing enemy units using targeted (red dot) fire. US players will quickly come to loathe the sound of MG42s as it means some team is getting chewed up.