The only other invasion of Hawaii that I can recall was in Yubari's [Allies] rookie AAR. The Japanese landed very early with heavy commitment of troops and ships. Yubari was able to hold them for some time by shutting down their airfield construction with HBs. Unfortuately he lost all his carriers in a trap a few months later and didn't have the heart to continue the game, but I was impressed at how the weak allies were able to pin the Japanese in place and not let them progress in their conquest. I think Big Red took up the AAR and continued it but it still shows as Yubari's AAR, if you want to look at it.
I did read some of that right about the time he gave up. Didn't he lose the carriers near Sumatra? Or I could be remembering another.
I'll take a look at the earlier pages.
One thing I did that many don't is I sent three B-17, 2-3 2E B-bombers, and 2 heavy P-39 units to CT on the second day. They'll be there in eight days, and could do good work, even if it's Soerbaja by the time they get on map. But I don't have them to commit to Hawaii. I just have my carriers.
Getting the Chinese in will be "odd", but as always in Burma it's the supply quesiton. So many of them need months in a big, rich city to fatten up. I have replacements off for all of China except Chungking, where they are fattening, and building toward Forts 7. My overall goal is to relieve much of the Indian garrison load with Chinese and free up some Indian heavy units to bring down to the Irrawaddy Valley later in 1942. Longer term, if he allows it, I'm thinking of staying off the coast with the Chinese and using a good portion of them to try an Indo-China thrust on about the longitude of Chang Mai, with a view to cut Bangkok from the east, and proceed to Saigon if possible by 1/44. But that's long range.
I have in 2 games [both scenario #1] have not comitted as much Chineese as you have to Burma. In that perspective, I have used them as an annyoance causing the IJA to move forces north while the Brits, Indians. and Aussies put pressure coming due East. A funny thing in terms of maneuver in this game. A single unit sitting on a road interdicting supplies will change combat odds and firepower dramatically. In a rough/jungle hex an out of supply chineese unit can put up quite a defense in terms of distracting forces from objectives. That said in the light of thinking building up big forces and fighting a WWI slugfest of attrition vs. slow methodical interdiction of LOC while the Allies prepare for a thurst ..
Just a thought ...
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
The only other invasion of Hawaii that I can recall was in Yubari's [Allies] rookie AAR. The Japanese landed very early with heavy commitment of troops and ships. Yubari was able to hold them for some time by shutting down their airfield construction with HBs. Unfortuately he lost all his carriers in a trap a few months later and didn't have the heart to continue the game, but I was impressed at how the weak allies were able to pin the Japanese in place and not let them progress in their conquest. I think Big Red took up the AAR and continued it but it still shows as Yubari's AAR, if you want to look at it.
Re-quoting this one. I have just spent three hours reading most of this AAR. I began going faster in the last portion as it looks like the players were just bashing at each other, and the "no house rules, OK house rules, OK no house rules, 1 day, 2 day, 1 day, activate Russia please" elements of it overtook a tightly played game.
That said, the early game around Hawaii was very, very interesting. There are some adjustments I will make this turn and in coming days to reflect what I saw in that AAR. I won't go into details now.
Also, it shows that even with far more force than has been shown in this game, Japan taking the Hawaiian islands is extremely difficult. Yubari let FatR up off the mat by caving on night bombing; had that not happened the thing would have been over earlier. Japan has to win or the losses which can be suffered at Hawaii are extreme. To my way of thinking it is the most difficult of the Big Moves Japan can try to win a 1/1/43 auto-vic.
I have underestimated a few things, and very much overestimated others. Thanks a lot for this reference.
Getting the Chinese in will be "odd", but as always in Burma it's the supply quesiton. So many of them need months in a big, rich city to fatten up. I have replacements off for all of China except Chungking, where they are fattening, and building toward Forts 7. My overall goal is to relieve much of the Indian garrison load with Chinese and free up some Indian heavy units to bring down to the Irrawaddy Valley later in 1942. Longer term, if he allows it, I'm thinking of staying off the coast with the Chinese and using a good portion of them to try an Indo-China thrust on about the longitude of Chang Mai, with a view to cut Bangkok from the east, and proceed to Saigon if possible by 1/44. But that's long range.
I have in 2 games [both scenario #1] have not comitted as much Chineese as you have to Burma. In that perspective, I have used them as an annyoance causing the IJA to move forces north while the Brits, Indians. and Aussies put pressure coming due East. A funny thing in terms of maneuver in this game. A single unit sitting on a road interdicting supplies will change combat odds and firepower dramatically. In a rough/jungle hex an out of supply chineese unit can put up quite a defense in terms of distracting forces from objectives. That said in the light of thinking building up big forces and fighting a WWI slugfest of attrition vs. slow methodical interdiction of LOC while the Allies prepare for a thurst ..
Just a thought ...
I did consider an "swarm of bees" deployment of Chinese larger units into smaller in China in order to cut lines, but decided to retreat instead. Burma is a far smaller footprint for atomizaiton, and later on there is a possibility of air resupply for small Chinese squatters. Chinese units are easy to shatter if they're in the wrong terrain, but remarkably hard to kill down to the last man.
That said, the early game around Hawaii was very, very interesting. There are some adjustments I will make this turn and in coming days to reflect what I saw in that AAR. I won't go into details now.
OK. Can you give us a rough bulleted list of most salient points that you took away from this AAR that are applicable for you?
That said, the early game around Hawaii was very, very interesting. There are some adjustments I will make this turn and in coming days to reflect what I saw in that AAR. I won't go into details now.
OK. Can you give us a rough bulleted list of most salient points that you took away from this AAR that are applicable for you?
A few, then I have to write and there's a turn in the box . . .
1) Lahaina is far more important than either Hilo or Kona.
2) Get the BBs out of Pearl, even at 50:50 odds of sinking. I've gotten two out, but the others are stuck in upgrade. Big boo-boo. I thought he was gone on to other endeavors.
3) I do not have nearly enough fighters.
4) Night bombing overstacked AFs works and is "fair" (not that I care about that.)
5) Subs can be over-relied upon.
6) Johnson I. needs to be suppressed while the location of the KB is known.
7) USMC CD units are key to blunt the landings while the bonus is in force.
8) Mines can be over-relied upon.
9) In early '42 there just isn't enough LCU to defend both Kona and Hilo, and maybe not enough for one of them. Too much bread, not enough jam.
10) A wound is as good as a kill. Truk is a long truck.
In my transmission e-mail I suggested this turn might see some fireworks. In the reply Mike said not so much; he saw this as revenge for Mersing and not much else. I was very worried as the movie started. But the whole day was more a minuet of moving and probing, and not much resolution. I still have No . . . Freakin' . . . Idea what he's up to at Hawaii. Or Sumatra.
With the turn this morning he said it was tedious for him due to Japanese economic fiddling. He said he feels as if he's already robbing Peter to pay Paul. A slip? Psyops? In Scen. 2 he is not short of anything--really--yet, but he may be burning fuel faster than he'd like with the cruising about the eastern Pacific, the lack of Palembang or Balikpapan or Soerbaja yet, and my endeavors to blow up the petroleum he does hold. Or it could be resources too. I'm giving him a fair bit of those in China, but that doesn't get them to the HI.
Anyway, a pretty easy turn for the Allies except for the bit at the end.
1) TF attack at Palembang with torps on three DDs costs him 1 Nell down and 3 damaged. Palembang gets a lot of attention again this turn. Won't relate it all.
2) More Manila pounding doing a lot of runway damage and a little supply. Over 120 bombers in total. I've moved 50% of the defenders out to Clark now, and all but one will go tomorrow, leaving one decent PI unit to keep the supply flowing. I flushed the last xAK out of the yards today with 85 system damage and just a bit too little flooding to scuttle. It promptly sank, leaving the PTs at Bataan the only things floating in Luzon. Cebu has two small fry still (AMs) and a few fighters and floats. The PI is ready to be pushed over, but he still has not moved even on Lingayan.
3) Victoria Point is bombed by a bunch of Lily's, but it's been empty since December 8th.
4) Singers attrition continues, but it's not closing the AF at this level. Fort building progresses very slowly.
Morning Air attack on Singapore , at 50,84
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 29
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 19
Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 3
Japanese aircraft losses Ki-21-IIa Sally: 14 damaged
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 destroyed by flak
5) In another move I don't understand, he brings BBs right onto Singers' doorstep. The TBs are alive but elsewhere. Perhaps he thinks the AF is closed? Also, Singers is a major sub base still, and has a few surface assets with torpedoes. I don't see what this gets him unless he's planning to run up the strait and re-base at Rangoon, which he'll have a couple of days. Even so, fuel won't flow there until he takes some up-country bases. Just odd.
Morning Air attack on TF, near Tandjoengpinang at 50,86
Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 3
139WH-3 x 3
Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 2 damaged
Japanese Ships
BB Haruna
BB Kongo
6) Hawaii. Bolos taken off ASW fly and get hit pretty hard by CAP. 4 down. But this raid shows CAP units from all six KB fleet carriers, so they're all here.
A small Kate/Zero raid on Hilo targets CL Trenton there, but misses. Two Wildcats are lost.
B-17s from Pearl fly on xAK Uyo Maru and miss. TF trailing the KB. One Fort lost, four damaged by CAP. But there is confirmaiton there are xAKs present. But search only shows two xAK and one xAP. Not nearly enough for a landing that will do much. Still details in the weeds I can't see yet.
2 Vals attack DD near Hilo and miss.
The big attack spoken of in the e-mail comes in the afternoon and targets support ships at Hilo.
Afternoon Air attack on Hilo , at 183,111
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 17 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 48
B5N1 Kate x 7
B5N2 Kate x 88
D3A1 Val x 54
Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 5
F4F-3 Wildcat x 5
Allied Ships DD Lawrence
CL Trenton
DD Hull, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
AV Curtiss, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
AG Florence D., Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
AD Rigel, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AR Vestal, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
AE Mauna Loa, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
8) Various other air attacks too numerous and routine to list. At Tarakan the Balikpapan boys do heavily damage an in-port xAK which should sink. Given comments today I expect Balikpapan may have moved up on the target list even before its harrassment of Tarakan.
only my 2 cents - but in my current GC I packed about 3 Australian (2 large ones with 6inch guns) and 2 US CD Gun units (with the 155mm) into Gerladton - and I hope they will do better in case of an actual invasion than in case of a bombardment run... - cause my AF got trashed every time (with about 30 planes stationed there- so no overstacking) and no CD-gun hits ever scored although the enemy ships closed up to 4000 yards... - the place had lvl 6 forts back then too...
only my 2 cents - but in my current GC I packed about 3 Australian (2 large ones with 6inch guns) and 2 US CD Gun units (with the 155mm) into Gerladton - and I hope they will do better in case of an actual invasion than in case of a bombardment run... - cause my AF got trashed every time (with about 30 planes stationed there- so no overstacking) and no CD-gun hits ever scored although the enemy ships closed up to 4000 yards... - the place had lvl 6 forts back then too...
so watch out for naval bombardments....
He has at least several BBs with the KB which could be split off. But reloading is a ways. I need to check out Johnson to see if he has several AKEs there.
I never count on CD units to do anything about naval bombardment. It's night and the BBs can stand off fifteen miles and shoot at unmoving targets. CD is there for landings only. The early USMC CD is pretty good.
Speaking of BBs, I would expect that the 2 off Singers were going on a bombardment run but ran out of ops points before they could do the deed. Sometimes happens if the escorting DDs/DMSs need fuel before they get there.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
Speaking of BBs, I would expect that the 2 off Singers were going on a bombardment run but ran out of ops points before they could do the deed. Sometimes happens if the escorting DDs/DMSs need fuel before they get there.
Where do you figure? Singers has permanent CD and a lot of mines, and they don't fit up the river to P.
Speaking of BBs, I would expect that the 2 off Singers were going on a bombardment run but ran out of ops points before they could do the deed. Sometimes happens if the escorting DDs/DMSs need fuel before they get there.
Where do you figure? Singers has permanent CD and a lot of mines, and they don't fit up the river to P.
In a sandbox game to see what Singers defences could do I sent 4 Japanese DDs in to bombard. They caused considerable damage and got away without a scratch! I have also successfully sent BBs/CAs to bombard Saipan naval fortress by setting the standoff distance to 8000 yards. Got a few hits from the smaller, rapid fire guns but nothing more than a few points system damage. I think your previous statement that CDs are for shooting at stationary amphib targets is true most often, although CDs do seem to react to minesweepers!
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
"Ah, So" said the blind man who picked up his saw and sawed . . .
TF 277 detected by Japanese Aircraft at 43,59 near Little Andaman
TF 170 detects Japanese Dive Bomber at 46,58 near Port Blair
xAKL Illinoian detected by Japanese Recon at 46,58 near Port Blair
HDML 1103 detected by Japanese Recon at 46,58 near Port Blair
"Take the hit", ordered the Admiral to his flotilla commander at Hilo, who could smell the burning diesel from yesterday's air raids. "They're gonners at sea. At the pier they might give your cruiser a chance."
1) Near Port Blair the above recon/search detects flashed across the screen and I remembered a lone icon passing through the islands SE of Java two weeks ago. The icon was a sub, so I stationed a barrier ASW patrol there, but it was never seen again. Weak air patrols on the west coast of Java, full of holes, never saw anything go by. The detect planes "could" be based from Malaysia, but it's doubtful that many that far out. Rangoon is still Allied. I think a piece or a part of the MKB went a-hunting two weeks ago and the Japanese want a weakly defended Pt. Blair by a rush attack. Troops? I don't know. Maybe the TF has an xAK or three along and will lift a fragment off Rangoon when it's taken. More likley there's a regiment along with the carrier(s). It might also explain the presence of BBs at the southern mouth of the Straits of Malacca. I have two subs in the Straits, but BBs could thunder past pretty swiftly. Where they get fuel up there I don't know. But they could go.
xAK refugees from Rangoon were sent to Pt. Blair to drop un-dropped supplies. The HDMLs from there were sent as well. Pt. Blair is very lightly held. It is on the short list, but Colombo is getting stiffened first. Pt. Blair is a very troublesome base to the Allies if lost. It may be. But these sightings were a gift. I have HMS Hermes at Colombo with a few DD escorts. Not much it he has Kates. Stay tuned.
2) At Hilo "take the hit" is the order of the day. In the brutal calculus of war the support ships, some on fire from yesterday, are ordered to stay put and sponge up the KB's attack. They are moslty large ships and will recieve the brunt. At sea they would be visible, slow, and also dead, but to no purpose. In port they may allow the combatants another day of life and prevent the landings from beginning. One more day of fuel use by Japan, one more day for the B-17s and other offensive air to try to hit a carrier. One more day for the subs to get in position for the egress. If the mistake of setting up a fully operable base at Hilo so soon is to mean anything the base component ships must die with some purpose. And it happens that way. Today.
Afternoon Air attack on Hilo , at 183,111
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 47
B5N1 Kate x 12
B5N2 Kate x 88
D3A1 Val x 52
Allied aircraft
P-40B Warhawk x 7
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1
Allied Ships DD Sands
CL Trenton
DD MacDonough, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
AE Mauna Loa, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hull, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
AD Rigel, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1
3) USN sub takes a bite out of mine clearing. Two Dutch O-boats have just delivered large loads, and Japan is trying to clear their main operational port in NW Borneo.
ASW attack near Sambas at 57,88
Japanese Ships DMS W-12, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage (It sinks)
xAK Hakusika Maru
E Uruyame
Allied Ships
SS S-39, hits 2
4) Saturation bombing on Singers, combined with the newly added residents, take supply levels down to about 29,000. Forts still building toward 4, but that little supply will not mean a long siege. Mark Singers' defense down as another Allied mistake.
5) The PTs from Bataan go shopping agin, but find nothing. There is no longer any torpedo reloading capability at Manila or Bataan, so these are truly one-shot weapons. Every time Japan sees them they strafe and do a few points of damage. This time it was Nates, the first time they've been seen in the PI.
6) It's about time, or past, to evacuate the navy units from Singers, if possible. The DDs there can't do much with BBs and CAs, but might help Force Z if they can get to the IO. One is sunk this turn by torpedo raid. Even against the AI I always seem to do poorly with the Dutch and RN ships trapped in the DEI when the war begins. I prefer to rally them at Soerbaja, but that may not be possible any longer.
Morning Air attack on TF, near Singapore at 50,84
Weather in hex: Moderate rain
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 17 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
B5N1 Kate x 12
B5N2 Kate x 5
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
DD Encounter
DD Vendetta, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Stronghold
7) I was incorrect yesterday that Japan bombed a vacant Victoria Point. I was thinking of Georgetown. There is a small base force at VP which has done nothing since the first day. Now, with the bombing, I figure why not and order it to march across to Chumpton. If it has any AV (I didn't check) I might sever the penninsula supply flows for a few days.
8) 21 Bettys bomb Sabang, a first. A new AA unit has just landed from CT. Sabang is my third hold point on Summatra with P. and Oost. It has a few refugee infantry scraps and a lot of engineers. I want to hold it only to deny it to Japan as long as possible since it's the load port for Medan's petroleum. If he has a force up near Pt. Blair it might not be long for the world though. I have nothing to help it with.
9) IJN sub gets one of the last refugees fleeing Palembang.
Submarine attack near Oosthaven at 49,95
Japanese Ships
SS I-164
Allied Ships
xAK Siantar, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
Not an "up" day for the Allies. No screenshots, but the TFs south of the Big Island are bending toward Hilo. If so that's preferable from a CD standpoint to Kona. Hilo has two small infantry units and a tank unit I scrounged off the west coast by using an air HQ in West Coast Command to free up with lower PPs. I have done that with two other small LCUs. Don't plan to make a habit of it, and I never do the PP "tricks" of transfering the high parent command to the restricted, etc. But I did it here with an air HQ. The tanks may be important.
This is starting to get interesting. [:)] Kind of curious what your thoughts were regarding placing the support ships at Hilo. That's a big ouchie.
Good luck!
Cheers,
CC
Ouchie is too kind.
I sent them there to set up a fully operating base to fight over Palmyra and Christmas. I thought with those two he would (maybe) take Midway to complete the line, then backfill at Wake (still untouched), Tarawa, Canton, Makin, and the two resource-holding islands west of Tarawa I can't recall now. Ndeni and Ocean maybe?
I did not think the op area rated the full KB again, until and unless the full-bore attempt to take the main Hawaiian islands was underway, and even then risky since he hasn't seen my CVs for a month. Until three days ago I had a good surface TF on patrol off Hilo, with two CAs, a CL, and five DDs. I've since pulled them into Pearl to work with Warspite. They would have just been chum if they'd been there.
One DD at Hilo will sink or be scuttled this turn, but the CL and other DD coudl sortie. Don't know if I will. Might retreat them. I'm wondering if the KB is hanging around waiting for the big troop convoy to come in from the west, or maybe Palmyra.
Moose, just reading along enjoying your AAR. We forumites were fortunate that you dipped your toe into PBEM and decided to do an AAR to boot. Keep up the good work.
P.S. Did I pick up a whiff that you were concerened about your long term prospects hsould Hawaii fall? If so, you can banish those thoughts. Hawaii, while more important than, say, Tasmania or Cocos Island, isn't a huge deal for the Allies. The Allies in your capable hands is capable of coming back from nearly any disaster.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Moose, just reading along enjoying your AAR. We forumites were fortunate that you dipped your toe into PBEM and decided to do an AAR to boot. Keep up the good work.
P.S. Did I pick up a whiff that you were concerened about your long term prospects hsould Hawaii fall? If so, you can banish those thoughts. Hawaii, while more important than, say, Tasmania or Cocos Island, isn't a huge deal for the Allies. The Allies in your capable hands is capable of coming back from nearly any disaster.
Welcome back, sir. Any sunburn? It was, this morning here, nine degrees.
Hawaii is a big psychological and habitual "need" for my style. I've never played without it. I rely on its yards more than any other. I rely on its historical submarine function. It's a superb supply dump ten days closer to the front than almost anywhere else in the first two years.
I could play without it, but the VP margins would be a lot tighter. If he took it I think I'd just harrass it with subs from the WC, and go completely off-map to Asia, really cram the LCUs into India, support the Chinese refugees, and throw everything at Indo-China/Hong Kong I could get there. Let the IJN bleed itself out holding Hawaii against an attack that doesn't come.
Secondary I'd probably do Norpac to some extent, sticking to the coastal routes up across the Yukon.
[:)] Okay, that explanation makes sense! (Especially the "whaaaaaah"! Some places are just close to our hearts for a variety of reasons.)
Homestead and Key Largo were sunny and warm, and green and blue. The waters of Biscayne Bay and the Carribean are lovely. Me and two of my children even went for a swim a week ago today. Then we returned home on Thanksgiving day, to the wintertime landscape of northwest Georgia. Oh well, free airconditioning!
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
