How To Orchestrate a Carrier Battle v0.1

[John 3rd]

Well written and excellent advice along with some serious thinking. Thanks!

[Sardaukar]

Good stuff from LoBaron as always.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Crackaces, I never set arcs for naval searh from my carrier aircraft (LBA, I do set arcs) I have not ever noticed a difference between setting arcs and not. If you put enough aircraft up on search all the arcs will be searched multiple times. Just a preference as I find maintaining arcs for multiple carrier squadrons tedious. And am convinced that it does not matter...

It does look more menacing when one presses the 'z' key [8D]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

"Air skill is for the guys in planes or the squadron commanders, it does not help to drive a ship. Period."

Is that related to the specific ship captain; or also to the fleet commander?

I have Kiddo Butai; it contains 6 carrier captain and 1 fleet commander (Nagumo); does this means that the "air" skill of all is irrelevant? or just the 6 carrier captains?

thanks

[LoBaron]

Thank you guys, and sorry that it will take a bit until the next larger update. I see what I can do to get it up ASAP but I got a pretty crowded
life at the moment. I got some drafts in the works, but not enough for an update yet. Sadly I am that kind of guy who needs a bit of peace and
quiet to write stuff that makes sense, and peace and quiet currently is highly dependent on a 4 months old wannabe TF commander demanding
attention.

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

"Air skill is for the guys in planes or the squadron commanders, it does not help to drive a ship. Period."

Is that related to the specific ship captain; or also to the fleet commander?

I have Kiddo Butai; it contains 6 carrier captain and 1 fleet commander (Nagumo); does this means that the "air" skill of all is irrelevant? or just the 6 carrier captains?

thanks

TF commanders air skill, according to all I know, does have an impact on CV TF operations as it increases mission frequency for the planes in
the TF. It is not enough to outweight naval skill - I would not accept a 45 Naval skill TF commander because he has 90 air skill - but it is an
important to have secondary skill.

I was referring to ship captains, wonder if I was specific enough on this.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

You were specific... I am just getting paranoid [:)] ; leadership is probably where my knowledge gap is the greatest.

[SenToku]

Has the naval search some function in actual strike, or is it just used to find the enemy's TF?

[panzer cat]

This is a great post, wish I had known some of this before I lost most of my carriers. Improving the nav search skill for bomber pilots had never occured to me. Do I need to train my ASW pilots in nav search also.(off topic, sorry).

[Quixote]

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Has the naval search some function in actual strike, or is it just used to find the enemy's TF?

No role in the actual strike, but don't discount it. It doesn't matter how good your strike is if they find nothing to strike.

You'll see bomber groups fail to find their way often enough throughout the game, but the less you see it, the better.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Quixote

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Has the naval search some function in actual strike, or is it just used to find the enemy's TF?

No role in the actual strike, but don't discount it. It doesn't matter how good your strike is if they find nothing to strike.

You'll see bomber groups fail to find their way often enough throughout the game, but the less you see it, the better.

Quixote, check the part of the manual about DL. It does have an important part in the strike itself.

The higher the DL of a unit is, the easier it is to hit. For naval units this rule applies to surface combat as well as air attacks against shipping.
In addition to your comment about finding the target in the first place, this is what makes NavS missions such a dangerous weapons, even if it does not drop a bomb.
(and what makes good radar sets on ships so important FWIIW...)

There is a significant difference in survivability of a spotted target compared to a very well spotted target.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: panzer cat

This is a great post, wish I had known some of this before I lost most of my carriers. Improving the nav search skill for bomber pilots had never occured to me. Do I need to train my ASW pilots in nav search also.(off topic, sorry).

Thanks panzer cat.

I am not really an ASW expert. What I know is that ASW works different from conventional naval attack.

As far as I know ASW mission (and so the respective skill) covers both, the search and the attack part, of sub hunting. So it is not an absolute necessity.
On the other hand NavS range is not halved, as ASW range is. So it does make sense to train ASW units in NavS as well, more so as NavS can also spot submarines.

I prefer to keep this thread focused on CV operations, but ASW does have a place here. Submarines are obviousely a threat to carriers, and so ASW is a topic which needs
attention.

As I mentioned already though, the best weapon against submarines is to not get spotted by them. I reccommend, depending on the are threat level, to not use carrier
based search at all if you are in a backwater transit area, but either leave the ASW to float plane ops, or to LBA in combination with ASW TFs. One or the other "I-165 is
spotted by carrier divebomber" message can give more intel to the enemy as you want him to have.

[obvert]

The ASW capabilities for the IJN CVs are crucial I feel. The Kate is probably the best ASW platform Japan has and I always train KB pilots in ASW when they are sitting around. This does several things related to CV combat.

One, if they gain a new skill they also gain experience, improving their overall combat survivability and effectiveness.

Two, it is useful to use them as LBA ASW platforms when the KB is in port, both hitting subs and possibly providing false intelligence if they are not stationed where the CVs are kept. I always use them when there is an upgrade happening, but may move them to another location likely to cause concern if my opponent is paying attention.

Three, this is vital during movement from one area to another or heading back for upgrades/repairs. When in the safe areas behind the lines where I can use 60% ASW settings, having 100+ Kates with 60-80 exp and 70 skill in ASW looking for subs can't hurt. Often the float planes of escorts and CS will be flying some combo of day/night search as well, and the CVs will follow a surface ASW group. I have had several CVs hit by subs, even though these groups were there, but this was usually when a CV was moving solo with escorts to or from the HI for upgrades/repairs, and the presence of the Kates might have been a factor in the CV not getting sunk that day or the following few.

The key is not using this close to contests areas, as a surprise attack could leave you in trouble if your TBs are flying even 10-20% ASW. Also, if you want to keep secrecy of your CVs, use both DBs and TBs on a saturated search pattern in another area where you know subs operate frequently, hopefully confusing the intel.

[Crackaces]

I prefer to keep this thread focused on CV operations, but ASW does have a place here. Submarines are obviousely a threat to carriers, and so ASW is a topic which needs
attention.
...............
As I mentioned already though, the best weapon against submarines is to not get spotted by them. I reccommend, depending on the are threat level, to not use carrier
based search at all if you are in a backwater transit area, but either leave the ASW to float plane ops, or to LBA in combination with ASW TFs. One or the other "I-165 is
spotted by carrier divebomber" message can give more intel to the enemy as you want him to have.

I think there is a discussion around ASW,secuirty, and CV operations. One reason when staging the CV's is to use ASW and short ranges is to get DL on subs at the risk of annoucing the presece of the CV TF. As you mention Submarines discovering Carrier planes get specific messages "XYZ spotted by a fighter bomber", or better yet,:" XYZ being tracked by carrier planes" etc that with other intellegence like increasing DL on ones subs provides a big picture can be brought together. As an AFB, I think this decision is absoultely critical for the IJ if they plan to adventure out of Mavis range, especally with advanced weather = on.

As a strategy I assume that my USN submarines will dud .. but the intellegece gathered by patrolling lanes where I think the KB is headed or leaving provides invaluable information. Especally when I have the USN CV's out ..

On somewhat the same subject .. There might be a good discussion around flooding areas in the planned CV patrol zones with submarines just to gather intelligence before committing ones CV's .. even the rare XYZ is spotted by a patrol and increasing DL on ones submarines provides information how far out the enemy's patrol arcs extend ..

The best intelllegnce is a big ol' fat CV in the periscope [8D]

[SenToku]

IJN seems to have number of suberb scout plane platforms in its inventory, such as Chitose class, Tone class and later converted Mogami. Is there a reason why IJN player needs to use his strike planes to Search or ASW roles, when he can have as many as 100 long range float and recon plane models with his carriers?

Seems kind of waste to double or triple train their pilots, especially since the losses among them are usually pretty heavy and pilot training is what it is.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: SenToku

IJN seems to have number of suberb scout plane platforms in its inventory, such as Chitose class, Tone class and later converted Mogami. Is there a reason why IJN player needs to use his strike planes to Search or ASW roles, when he can have as many as 100 long range float and recon plane models with his carriers?

Seems kind of waste to double or triple train their pilots, especially since the losses among them are usually pretty heavy and pilot training is what it is.

The problem is that weather adversely affects seabased patrol planes. Thus, if there is weather in the hex with the platform, it is very likely these fine patrol aircraft will not fly. However, weather does not affect CV based planes such as DB's and TB's as dramatically. Thus if it is possible to fly, at least the DB's and TB's will find a a target preventing the Midway scenario ...

Using Advanced Weather makes the Earth more like the planet Hoth and greatly increases the probability of grounding sea based float patrol craft. Massing all the platforms in one big TF puts the weather die roll in a huge risk of ruin situation.

This particular operational detail is critical for the IJN seeking engagments outside of Mavis range, because land-based patrols are not dramaticaly affected by weather . Sailing the KB into distant patrol zones well-covered by Cat's with advanced weather =on is a sure way to reenact Midway aganst a tough Allied opponent. [8D]

[Crackaces]

LOCATION:

I think location of the battle is a very worthy topic. Albeit my experience is quite limited it seems that many CV battles take place because of a landing or power projection into an area that sometimes migt be without thought as to the big operational picture. Just a quick example, Sailing a CV TF into a merchant lane with the thought of engaging an enemy CV TF, or worse an enemy CV TF suddenly shows up. Because Naval attack is totally up to the distance parameters and hidden algorithums, and mostly totally out of control of the player, this brings into play strike packages finding targets better engaged on another day.

I am not suggesting the suicide xAKL strategy, but I am focusing on lanes within the Gilberts as an example, or just north of Suva where it might be very likely merchant targets might be found which might be good, but in the presence of the enemy CV's, which might be very very bad.

I have two such experinces with the KB/mini KB's deviating strike packages toward merchant vessels rather than a total focus on destroying CV's and capital ships. Needless to say the dilution of assests caused much grief [8D].

On a different note, within a CV TF BB's will dilute strike packages sparing the precious carriers from the full wrath.

[FatR]

NavS: Every DB or TB pilot participating in a strike requires this skill maxed out. This actually is no secondary skill at all,
it is close to equally important than NavB/NavT. If you do not find your target, and if you are unable to max out the DL of your
target, you lose the CV battle! Train this skill up with as much enthusiasm as you would train NavB/T.

I don't agree with that. Training an extra skill to good levels is time-consuming (and you might want carrier pilots to know GrdB too) and Japanese pre-war veterans are too valuable for strikes. I prefer to conduct naval search with seaplanes and several dedicated Kate/Jill groups based on smaller Japanese carriers (some of which carry no torpedoes anyway). I train divebomber crews on ASW as a secondary skill, Japanese divebombers are less valuable in naval strikes, and I don't want them to fly ground attack missions against anything with actual AAA, so they have a bit of traning time to spare. Although value of carrier-based ASW is dubious when you want to move unnoticed (which is almost always)...

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: FatR

NavS: Every DB or TB pilot participating in a strike requires this skill maxed out. This actually is no secondary skill at all,
it is close to equally important than NavB/NavT. If you do not find your target, and if you are unable to max out the DL of your
target, you lose the CV battle! Train this skill up with as much enthusiasm as you would train NavB/T.

I don't agree with that. Training an extra skill to good levels is time-consuming (and you might want carrier pilots to know GrdB too) and Japanese pre-war veterans are too valuable for strikes. I prefer to conduct naval search with seaplanes and several dedicated Kate/Jill groups based on smaller Japanese carriers (some of which carry no torpedoes anyway). I train divebomber crews on ASW as a secondary skill, Japanese divebombers are less valuable in naval strikes, and I don't want them to fly ground attack missions against anything with actual AAA, so they have a bit of traning time to spare. Although value of carrier-based ASW is dubious when you want to move unnoticed (which is almost always)...

FatR, your way of setting up is an option. At least for the Japanese side.

It does not change my opinion on this topic though, basically for three reasons:

1) Redundancy: specializing a small contingent of your carrier group assets on naval search has the drawback, that if you lose one of those assets (e.g. the CS working as
scouting platform for your strike planes), you immediately lose a huge ammount of CV TF effectiveness. Leaving the NavS jobs to your carrier attack pilots assures balanced
search/strike percentages even in the face of ship losses.

2) Also a personal preference, but if you set up your CVs to operate in several TFs you need to assign search components to each of those groups to ensure NavS coverage in the
event of group separation. This makes the NavS components even more brittle to battle damage. I prefer my multi carrier strike groups to keep on ticking as an offense platform
even in th face of critical ship losses. This, admittedly, is less of a topic for a Japanese player, as for them the decision to form multiple groups is also dependent on escort availability.

3) exp: I would not put CV pilots on ships without them gaining at least 50exp for obvious reasons. To reach this you need to train two skills anyway. True, you can train NavB to your TB pilots,
this makes sense, but the other way around (NavT to your DB pilots) doesn´t. This leaves you with a free to choose skill, mine automatically would be NavS. ASW is another
option, but my personal priority would be easily on the NavS side.

So the discussion is less decided on the IJN side than on the USN side for obvious reasons. Although even there I would rather assign NavS to the strikers, ASW to specialized units - as you
you already said - one should only use airborne ASW in specific situations with CV operations anyway, and GrdB only if it is affordable, which, in most situations, isn´t.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SenToku

IJN seems to have number of suberb scout plane platforms in its inventory, such as Chitose class, Tone class and later converted Mogami. Is there a reason why IJN player needs to use his strike planes to Search or ASW roles, when he can have as many as 100 long range float and recon plane models with his carriers?

Seems kind of waste to double or triple train their pilots, especially since the losses among them are usually pretty heavy and pilot training is what it is.

In addition to Crackaces points, some of these ships are subject to conversions. The CS may end up as CVL, and the Mogami upgrade is a choice with a lengthy conversion process right in the middle of the war.

Really though, what are your CV pilots doing most of the time? Mostly sitting in port or moving to another location behind the front lines. So why not improve whatever skill you choose during that time?

[SenToku]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: SenToku

IJN seems to have number of suberb scout plane platforms in its inventory, such as Chitose class, Tone class and later converted Mogami. Is there a reason why IJN player needs to use his strike planes to Search or ASW roles, when he can have as many as 100 long range float and recon plane models with his carriers?

Seems kind of waste to double or triple train their pilots, especially since the losses among them are usually pretty heavy and pilot training is what it is.

In addition to Crackaces points, some of these ships are subject to conversions. The CS may end up as CVL, and the Mogami upgrade is a choice with a lengthy conversion process right in the middle of the war.

Really though, what are your CV pilots doing most of the time? Mostly sitting in port or moving to another location behind the front lines. So why not improve whatever skill you choose during that time?

Doesn't the D4Y-C make this argument completely meaningless by the time CS ships (Chitose class at very least) are leaving for conversion? Mogami seems usefull to me as the number of squardons able to use D4Y-C are limited and with Tone class it would still have min of 20 search float planes in CV TF.