When are you gonna do promotion?

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Kayoz
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
I know I'm throwing my energy against a brick wall here, but again: I know he is talking about platforms and I know what that means.

Clearly you don't.

He wasn't saying Steam is a good distribution channel - he said that the PC is a good platform to develop a game for.

Your original post said, "These are all comments from "niche" game sellers. And just a small sample of proof of steam being a good platform for niche games." - contrary to what Frogboy says - that the PC is a good platform - he does not go into whether or not Steam is a good channel for a game developer to sell his product. He says nothing of the sort that you imply.

That gives us two choices - You misunderstood Frogboy's post. Or deliberately misrepresented him.

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
Many times you have asked of any proof of steam as a healthy platform. There it is in clear figures and still you skip it. There is a small strategy game developer (+the other links) talking about "the steam factor" and complaining the lack of visibily to make informed decisions and still you ignore it. What kind of proof do you need? Direct message addressed to you, with exact figures and signed by all the distributors in the business?

Again, there you go misrepresenting or misinterpreting me.

My position is that Steam isn't the land of milk and honey that you make it out to be. You repeatedly present "facts" which turn out to be vacuous and worthless. Anecdotal statements and vague comments on sales - with nothing on profit. Your so-called business studies have taught you that turning a profit is the point of a business, right? But perhaps you haven't gotten that far, since your previous posts have demonstrated a lack of understanding of the difference between "revenue" and "profit".
ORIGINAL: Velihopea
You have your belief and as believers go, there is never enough evidence to prove you wrong.

You have yet to produce one iota of evidence. All you have presented are anecdotes and conjecture. If I weigh your so-called evidence you base your decisions on - against what Erik has available to him - the outcome should be obvious.

I really wonder where you get off second-guessing Matrix's decisions when you have no facts - no evidence - to indicate that Matrix's decision was wrong? Arrogance? Hubris? Feeble-mindedness?
ORIGINAL: Velihopea
EDIT2: "Steam is a digital distribution, digital rights management, multiplayer and communications platform developed by Valve Corporation." On further examination: I wasn't using wrong terms, you were just nitpicking, please do NOT correct me again.

In that case, you deliberately misrepresented Frogboy's post. He did not praise Steam. He did not say it was a wonderful channel to sell his games. He only said that the PC is a good platform to develop for - and referred to Steam sales as one quantifiable source for sales figures. Nowhere in his post did he say "Steam has me rolling in cash". He said nothing of the sort. But since you insist you know the "platform" he we referring to - and understood his post - then you deliberately misrepresented his statements. That, to use a word commensurate with your comprehension level, is commonly called A LIE.

I have no need to correct you again. It's quite clear that you're wrong and trying to wriggle out of your most recent display of your obviously feeble grip of the English language.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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Velihopea
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Velihopea »

In that case, you deliberately misrepresented Frogboy's post. He did not praise Steam. He did not say it was a wonderful channel to sell his games ... is commonly called A LIE.

I should let this go but I can not, I'm not in that a good mood today as to let a too common internet-forum-flamer just repeat _lines_ to make them true. He talked about platforms in the concept of PC,Xbox etc (I know what those are, mind you, as do 99,9 percent of gamers). Anyone with any sense can read from Frogboy's post (and more of Paradox comments, which you happily choose to ignore at this point) that he praises steam (as well as PC as a platform).

I wrote:
"These are all comments from "niche" game sellers. And just a small sample of proof of steam being a good platform for niche games. And both from companies that have previously been quite anti-steam (before going steam) and had their own priviledged sales platform (GG,Impulse) to bad effect."
Nothing you have "argued" has changed this. Nothing. They are just empty words even if carefully written in good English with nice terms and a few "greetings" between the lines (or linked).

EDIT: This is useless, the links are there and anyone can read them. Let them. I'm again dropping this conversation now. And hope that you cannot flame me into replying again (in this thread at least).
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Velihopea
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Velihopea »

Slovenian89: Good post. I do think that Matrix is trying to promote the game, but I think (but do not know) that their resources & policies are not right.
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Kayoz
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
...he praises steam (as well as PC as a platform).

Quote the sentence(s) where he praises Steam as being a wonderful sales channel, as you contend.
ORIGINAL: Velihopea
I wrote:
"...a small sample of proof of steam being a good platform for niche games."

Where's this proof that you refer to? Point to the sentence(s) in Frogboy's post that says this.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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Velihopea
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Velihopea »

"Galactic Civilizations II, a game released 6 years ago and is almost certainly in the top 100 best sellers on Steam has done over $1 million in the past year alone on that platform."

What has he have to do to convince you? Repeat exactly three times "Praise to Steam, Praise to Steam, Praise to Steam".

And this is just one of the links. Paradox said, quote, "And its not worth it for us to make our own system for the 2-3% who don't buy games at steam" and later on
Forumite: "Finally I'm not alone in this ocean of baseless steam hatred."
Johan : "Its a small pond really, but some very loud fish in it."

I would like to end this discussion with that sentence, but do know thats a baseless hope.
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Kayoz
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
"Galactic Civilizations II, a game released 6 years ago and is almost certainly in the top 100 best sellers on Steam has done over $1 million in the past year alone on that platform."

What has he have to do to convince you? Repeat exactly three times "Praise to Steam, Praise to Steam, Praise to Steam".

That's a non-judgmental statement of Steam sales figures. He did not say "good", nor did he say "great". He simply quoted sales figures - that's all. Any positive connotation in his statement is entirely of your imagination.

He could have quoted Amazon or WalMart sales figures if he had them - and by your argument, he'd be praising them.

You have failed to support your previous statement that Frogboy praised Steam as a distributor. He did not.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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Velihopea
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Velihopea »

You have failed to support your previous statement that Frogboy praised Steam as a distributor. He did not.
You truly are something ... If there is a slightest chance of misinterpretation you just take it, do you? What was wrong with "let everybody read it themselves and make their own mind" suggestion?

Well, what you say in case of Paradox? On that you have been awfully quiet. I'm interested to see how you can change THAT one around. Are percentages too vague presentation form for you?
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Kayoz
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
You truly are something ... If there is a slightest chance of misinterpretation you just take it, do you? What was wrong with "let everybody read it themselves and make their own mind" suggestion?

Don't blame me for pointing out YOUR misrepresentation of Frogboy's post. That's your problem - not mine.

If you don't want your posts to be exposed to be misleading or fraudulent - then don't make such absurd statements that are so easily shot down.

Sure, everyone can read it for themselves. I just like to exercise my community spirit. I take joy in saving them having to read through your drivel and the linked post by Frogboy - and the time/trouble they will have to go to, to see how fatuous your claims are. Ain't I a sweetie?
ORIGINAL: Velihopea
Well, what you say in case of Paradox? On that you have been awfully quiet. I'm interested to see how you can change THAT one around. Are percentages too vague presentation form for you?

What of it? His (baseless) assessment is that 2-3% of people won't buy a game under any circumstances if it's released exclusively on Steam, and that it's not worthwhile for him to develop an achievements system to accommodate those potential customers.

How does that affect Matrix's sales? None at all. Matrix doesn't implement achievements in their games. Matrix isn't losing anything (of those 2-3%) by not releasing on Steam.

I fail to see how his statement has any relevance.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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Velihopea
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Velihopea »

If you don't want your posts to be exposed to be misleading or fraudulent - then don't make such absurd statements that are so easily shot down.
They were not shot down, it was all just YOUR imagination and a lively one at that. And I believe that only Darkspire has the stamina and wickedness required to follow this discussion this far, so you are doing pointless job and a bad one at that.
How does that affect Matrix's sales? None at all. Matrix isn't losing anything (of those 2-3%) by not releasing on Steam. I fail to see how his statement has any relevance.
Your failure to understand the text again. Let me try to make this one (at least) clear:
- He really has the figures of true sales. They have sold their games on multiple distribution platforms. He has the outcome of those sales in clear figures. No mistakes or assumptions there. The outcome is expressed clearly: only 2-3 percent is buying their games from other platforms.

And your following rambling proves my point that discussing with you on this topic is pointless. Why have we discussed for one page about the nature of steam in "Frogboy" link if the outcome of that discussion, even if you had had the spine to confess that I'm right, would have been nevertheless: "It doesn't matter at all"

Just pointless nitpicking from your part all the time.

You could have just said: "Matrix and all it's products are totally different from anything out there. Anything that happens in other parts of the gaming industry has no meaning to Matrix at all."
Then I would have understood that there is really nothing to discuss about with you unless Matrix go steam and publishes their sales figures (and then again this discussion would be pointless). I would actually be really interested to hear the sales figures of "Unity of command" by platform. It's the first Matrix game on Steam that is not niche^3. I would wager the result is that at some point in near future Matrix is taking Steam more seriously. At least with its more mainstream titles.
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
They were not shot down

Sooooo.... showing that you completely misrepresented Frogboy's post isn't a shoot-down? You're in denial.
ORIGINAL: Velihopea
only 2-3 percent is buying their games from other platforms.

That's not what he said. Go back and read his post - read it for what's written, not what you want to see.

You're seriously asserting that Steam has 97-98% dominance of the games market?
ORIGINAL: Velihopea
...even if you had had the spine to confess that I'm right, would have been nevertheless

I don't have a problem if you're right. The problem is - you aren't. You haven't been correct. Not in your "8 facts" list. Not with your Frogboy statement. Not with your crazy 97-98% market share assertion. You're consistently wrong time and time again.
ORIGINAL: Velihopea
You could have just said: "Matrix and all it's products are totally different from anything out there. Anything that happens in other parts of the gaming industry has no meaning to Matrix at all."

Nope. I never said that.

It's a business decision. Decisions are made with the information available to achieve the desired outcome. Matrix has that information and has come to a decision. You have no information (just conjecture and lies) - and come to a different conclusion.

Informed v uninformed decision - I think the likelihood of who's "right" is obvious.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
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Velihopea
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Velihopea »

His (baseless) assessment is that 2-3% of people won't buy a game under any circumstances if it's released exclusively on Steam, and that it's not worthwhile for him to develop an achievements system to accommodate those potential customers.
Is that how you "understood" it? You are dreaming man, just plain dreaming. He wouldn't have any number of that. And he clearly pointed out that he has the numbers. You are really a way out there in your own world.
You haven't been correct. Not in your "8 facts" list. Not with your Frogboy statement. Not with your crazy 97-98% market share assertion. You're consistently wrong time and time again.
You cannot see truth even when it's brought right on your face. This is somehow sad, but again proves my point.
It's a business decision. Decisions are made with the information available to achieve the desired outcome. Matrix has that information and has come to a decision
So now we are getting to the root (again).

Quote Frogboy: "Right now, game developers too often feel like they’re playing the lottery and that’s not a healthy way to run a business."

You can see a single lottery ticket as "the truth" that the decision is based on. Matrix knows the costs of steam, yes. But the most important questions are: How many units would DW sell on steam? How niche DW really is and would it be grapping new customer through steam and to what extent?

And with these questions you would have to project sales of similar titles on steam and still go awry a lot. One indicator of this could also be all these newcomers who wonder why they haven't heard of DW before?

Or as Matrix clearly has already done: put some games on steam and see how they sell. This is the best way and we will see what "Unity of Command" tells. But then again you have to make the assumption that UoC=DW.
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Velihopea
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Velihopea »

That's not what he said. Go back and read his post - read it for what's written, not what you want to see. You're seriously asserting that Steam has 97-98% dominance of the games market?

Paradox games sold. Yes. Paradox has stated this also before (then it was 95%), and no, I'm not digging up any more links to you, because clearly you can shut your eyes from even the most evident of things. Just by rolling around it and twisting and turning. Waste of my time, clearly.

One loud fish you are. There were 38958 registered forumites in Matrix forums with most users ever online of 80590. And 5000000 peaktime players on steam today. There are some facts for you my friend. Just that you know the size of your pond.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: When are you gonna do promotion?

Post by Erik Rutins »

Hi Everyone,

I've responded to multiple threads like this one in the past. I understand and appreciate the passion of DW fans that it get the widest possible audience, the greatest possible promotion, etc. I can only say that we share your passion and we are hard at work behind the scenes to ensure the brightest possible future for DW. Your feedback is appreciated and I assure you it is taken into consideration in our planning.

Locking this up now as all of these seem to eventually end up the same way with folks on opposite sides.

Regards,

- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


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