Seriously, N1K5-J George in Oct, 43?

[hades1001]

Guys, I'm talking about N1K5-J George, not some other planes. You really should test and see how powerful this particular plane is.

At 30,000 ft it beats P47D25 with advantage of 100:160. For those who don't believe it's game changer, just imagine you have a long range Shinden in 10/43. And why is N1K5-J George so powerful? I don't have an answer.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Guys, I'm talking about N1K5-J George, not some other planes. You really should test and see how powerful this particular plane is.

At 30,000 ft it beats P47D25 with advantage of 100:160. For those who don't believe it's game changer, just imagine you have a long range Shinden in 10/43. And why is N1K5-J George so powerful? I don't have an answer.

My experience is defenetly different mate. My P-47s ate alive everything Japan had in the air. Maybe only the KI-83 was able to cause me some little headhaces, but not that much.
N1K5-J is something like 60 knots slower than the P-47D25 and its weapons are not that accurate (those 20mm cannons aren't as good as those used by the KI-84 for example).

The Shindens are not that "exceptional" either imho. I remember my Spits VIII ate them alive as well.

Obviously this is just my personal experience

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: Kull

The real question is, could you do this playing a game with Realistic R&D on and PDU off? And the answer is, "no".

With PDU off, in 10/43 there is not a single unit that can even use N1K5 George. Except permanently restricted Yokosuka fighter unit...

Game, set, match! [:D]

Well, actually 341 Ku S-1 is arriving 10/43 or 11/43 and can use N1K5. The unit have 27 planes.

But other than that, next N1K5 capable unit arrives early 1944.

[hades1001]

Are you talking about 42000 ft?

Cause in my test 30,000 ft N1K5-J George definitely beat P47D25.

I'll test on the 42,000 ft.

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Guys, I'm talking about N1K5-J George, not some other planes. You really should test and see how powerful this particular plane is.

At 30,000 ft it beats P47D25 with advantage of 100:160. For those who don't believe it's game changer, just imagine you have a long range Shinden in 10/43. And why is N1K5-J George so powerful? I don't have an answer.

My experience is defenetly different mate. My P-47s ate alive everything Japan had in the air. Maybe only the KI-83 was able to cause me some little headhaces, but not that much.
N1K5-J is something like 60 knots slower than the P-47D25 and its weapons are not that accurate (those 20mm cannons aren't as good as those used by the KI-84 for example).

The Shindens are not that "exceptional" either imho. I remember my Spits VIII ate them alive as well.

Obviously this is just my personal experience

[GreyJoy]

Well, as far as i know, the game engine works in this way: when a plane is faster than the other one, the slower one gets a "deminutio" in its manouvre rating.
The P-47D25 reaches 435 mhp, while the N1K5-J gets to 480 (slower than the KI-84a). It's 55 mhp faster, it's 6 points more durable than the George (36 against 30) and its 8 cal.50 guns are more accurate than the obsolete type 99-2 20mm cannons.
 
Obviously it depends on the environement of your sandbox test. The P-47-D25 should be used to sweep japanese bases to oblivion, at high altitudes, thus denying the mvr advantage typical of every japanese airframe.
 
It's like to use a KI-44c against a Hurricane mkIIc... The Hurricane may have some good die and rolls and, playing defensively, can hold its own, but statistically speaking, there's no match
 

[Miller]

He researched the wrong model George, the K2 is 99% as good as the K5 but has service rating of 2 which is a huge difference in repair time compared to 3........

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Guys, I'm talking about N1K5-J George, not some other planes. You really should test and see how powerful this particular plane is.

At 30,000 ft it beats P47D25 with advantage of 100:160. For those who don't believe it's game changer, just imagine you have a long range Shinden in 10/43. And why is N1K5-J George so powerful? I don't have an answer.

No, never seen this kind of result. George is good but all 2nd generation Allied fighters do better vs it. Even hellcat hold it own in my game. The issue is speed and all Allied fighters are faster. Speed kills, both in game terms and historically.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Honestly crackaces getting hot and riled up because some nobody guy (me) makes some observations and suggestions for the O.P (and not you) and you jumping on my back is not in the spirit of this forum.

I apologise that I came off that way ..

Sir, you are a gent. I accept the apology and want to reciprocate by saying that I had just had a long day and didn't get the intent of your post in a way I should have.

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: Kull
The real question is, could you do this playing a game with Realistic R&D on and PDU off? And the answer is, "no".

With PDU off, in 10/43 there is not a single unit that can even use N1K5 George. Except permanently restricted Yokosuka fighter unit...

Game, set, match! [:D]

Guys, I know you all realise this but I'm procrastinating again ... Giving the Japanese the ability to manage production takes all historical air production realism away in the first turn.

I primarily play as the Japanese and would never accept a PDU Off game. There is no point giving me production control and then telling me that I can't change the manufacture of planes because the historical OOB was predicated by the historical production, not mine. Of course if the Japanese had developed the plane earlier they would have flown more N1K5-J units earlier. Giving me one thing and then taking the other just seems illogical.

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Well, PDU OFF means a lot. It brings away most of the thrill to play the Japanese economy... but Realistic R&D ON lets you get your fun with industry and research but, at the same time, forces you to make lots of decisions and creates lots of bottlenecks... and i think with PDU ON but R&D ON those results aren't possible

GreyJoy - I agree with almost everything you say but I will say that realistic R&D would still allow you to move along the upgrade path and get this plane at the same time. Sure, it would be more difficult, more opportunity cost, but not impossible

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Guys, I know you all realise this but I'm procrastinating again ... Giving the Japanese the ability to manage production takes all historical air production realism away in the first turn.

I primarily play as the Japanese and would never accept a PDU Off game. There is no point giving me production control and then telling me that I can't change the manufacture of planes because the historical OOB was predicated by the historical production, not mine. Of course if the Japanese had developed the plane earlier they would have flown more N1K5-J units earlier. Giving me one thing and then taking the other just seems illogical.

Totaly understand. However the way I look at it is this - almost everything the Japanese did in this war was an enormous clusterfuck. So being forced to deal with the illogical production choices of my minions is just a small way of adding an extra degree of realism. Plus I look forward (not really) to having airfields full of semi-useless airframes and asking the rhetorical question, "Really? REALLY? You clowns spent years researching this useless piece of trash while just one city away we're producing a different model that is light year superior in every way? Where is the bugger with the briefcase full of yen who made THAT decision?? BRING HIM TO ME!!!"

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Guys, I know you all realise this but I'm procrastinating again ... Giving the Japanese the ability to manage production takes all historical air production realism away in the first turn.

I primarily play as the Japanese and would never accept a PDU Off game. There is no point giving me production control and then telling me that I can't change the manufacture of planes because the historical OOB was predicated by the historical production, not mine. Of course if the Japanese had developed the plane earlier they would have flown more N1K5-J units earlier. Giving me one thing and then taking the other just seems illogical.

Totaly understand. However the way I look at it is this - almost everything the Japanese did in this war was an enormous clusterfuck. So being forced to deal with the illogical production choices of my minions is just a small way of adding an extra degree of realism. Plus I look forward (not really) to having airfields full of semi-useless airframes and asking the rhetorical question, "Really? REALLY? You clowns spent years researching this useless piece of trash while just one city away we're producing a different model that is light year superior in every way? Where is the bugger with the briefcase full of yen who made THAT decision?? BRING HIM TO ME!!!"

Thanks Kull - you gave me a nice chuckle for the afternoon

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Guys, I'm talking about N1K5-J George, not some other planes. You really should test and see how powerful this particular plane is.

At 30,000 ft it beats P47D25 with advantage of 100:160. For those who don't believe it's game changer, just imagine you have a long range Shinden in 10/43. And why is N1K5-J George so powerful? I don't have an answer.

Only if your pilot skill diverges.

Performance wise the planes are roughly equal, with the Thud D23 holding the distinct advantage at high alt and a slight advantage at lower alt.

Thud got better top speed, better firepower, better durability, and better ceiling. George N1K5-J has better mvr at low alt (as nearly all Japanese fighters), and slightly better climb.
The attributes of the George get ruined by its service rating of 3 though, while the Thud has 1.

ORIGINAL: n01487477
2. Economic Mod.(I've done this with my game with Floyd)
- Add months to F & FB (as well as others) plane arrival date. . One month for each year (see above).
- no more than 1 upgrade to next model per model. So, A6M3 -> 3a but not A6M5.
- Advanced Engines moved months down.
- Changing engines for advanced models so they are not using typical engines.
- Engine costs increased for building. (later models only) Pity we can't do this for planes too! Or get to the economic multipliers for these things!
- Less R&D plants available.
- All R&D plants start at 0(0)
- Less non-R&D plants (so you need to allow R&D to become production)
- Overall making the player research even late '42 planes to get them on time.
Misc.
-Reducing supply and HI production (while maintaining or increasing resource multiplier needs).
- Still testing a principle of prototyping (no arms) for my Options88 mod - which then can be used to further R&D on a real model / optioned models.

Besides that I am with you an Puhis when it comes down to that the bonus should be either removed or reduced by an order of magnitude,
this is a sensational modding solution! Well thought through. Thanks for posting!

[bigred]

The R&D model is too easy for most of us that know how to manipulate it. I don't advocate change, I am just suggesting what could be done.

The IJ air production is a magnificent part of the game. Fun and joyful as japan player to use on your unrelenting allied opponent and gives you as the jap hope and interest in the future (which may be very bleak).

If a more experienced IJ player suspects he is imbalancing his game then he should regulate himself!!![8D]

My 2 cents

[Puhis]

I regulate myself playing PDU off. No matter how early I get certain plane models, there's only limited number of units that can use them...

In Oscar IJA trust!!! [:D]

[PaxMondo]

Really, as GJ and a couple of others have already opined: there is no IJ fighter wunderkind.  Each one of the late war fighters has a serious defect compared to the allies Spit/TBolt/Stang lineup which really have nothing other than mediocre armaments (not bad, but not that strong).
 
George is too slow.  I mean like 80 kn against the Stang. 
Shinden/Karyu uses those 30mm, which are almost, but not quite useless.  Ergo, it is really undergunned.  and low manouver compared to the allied planes.
Frank is noticeably slower, but still competitive.  Ditto Sam.
Ki-83 - 2E fighter ... $$$$ and low manouver
etc.
 
There is a flaw with each model, and I haven't even mentioned SR.  Now as IJ player you learn to mitigate those defects to the best possible point, but they are still there.  An allied player, even my opponent (AI Andy) can easily take advantage of these differences if I do not watch them carefully.
 
Finally, what is the commotion about the N1K5? ... it is a very minor upgrade over the N1K1 ... 17 kn faster to 380 ... very minor changes in other aspects.  It is in no way a world beater.  Why would you invest the majority of your R&D on this plane?  And relatively few groups can use it ... only non CV fighters.  You get much bigger bang for your buck by investing in an IJA fighter ... Frank for example.  Can be used in like 4x the number of groups.
 
Anyway, just my ramblings from an IJ player POV.

[erstad]

Finally, what is the commotion about the N1K5? ... it is a very minor upgrade over the N1K1 ... 17 kn faster to 380 ... very minor changes in other aspects. It is in no way a world beater. Why would you invest the majority of your R&D on this plane?

Agree.

I don't even build the N1K5. The extra 17 knots (and a couple extra machine guns) don't seem to justify the increase in SR.

[Puhis]

I think center line MGs can make a difference. If we think about firepower, there is no better Japanese fighter than N1K5.

[koniu]

ORIGINAL: erstad

Finally, what is the commotion about the N1K5? ... it is a very minor upgrade over the N1K1 ... 17 kn faster to 380 ... very minor changes in other aspects. It is in no way a world beater. Why would you invest the majority of your R&D on this plane?

Agree.

I don't even build the N1K5. The extra 17 knots (and a couple extra machine guns) don't seem to justify the increase in SR.

N1K2 is version that should be accelerated. Decent speed, good firepower and SR 2
K5 of better fighter but i will see it mostly flaying in Japan defending Home Island against B-29 in secon half on `44. You can have there many big AF with huge AV support
In DEI, Burma or Pacific K2 is better because You have there smaller AF mostly without enugh AV support and You need planes in air and not grounded because of maintenance

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Really, as GJ and a couple of others have already opined: there is no IJ fighter wunderkind.  Each one of the late war fighters has a serious defect compared to the allies Spit/TBolt/Stang lineup which really have nothing other than mediocre armaments (not bad, but not that strong).

George is too slow.  I mean like 80 kn against the Stang. 
Shinden/Karyu uses those 30mm, which are almost, but not quite useless.  Ergo, it is really undergunned.  and low manouver compared to the allied planes.
Frank is noticeably slower, but still competitive.  Ditto Sam.
Ki-83 - 2E fighter ... $$$$ and low manouver
etc.

There is a flaw with each model, and I haven't even mentioned SR.  Now as IJ player you learn to mitigate those defects to the best possible point, but they are still there.  An allied player, even my opponent (AI Andy) can easily take advantage of these differences if I do not watch them carefully.

Finally, what is the commotion about the N1K5? ... it is a very minor upgrade over the N1K1 ... 17 kn faster to 380 ... very minor changes in other aspects.  It is in no way a world beater.  Why would you invest the majority of your R&D on this plane?  And relatively few groups can use it ... only non CV fighters.  You get much bigger bang for your buck by investing in an IJA fighter ... Frank for example.  Can be used in like 4x the number of groups.

Anyway, just my ramblings from an IJ player POV.

+1

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think center line MGs can make a difference. If we think about firepower, there is no better Japanese fighter than N1K5.

Oh I agree on both points (CL is much better and George has great firepower), but still, this is far from a world beater design. Now, this design with 420 kn speed? Sure, then it is a pretty strong contender. But those additional 40 kn are a BIG deal. Make this a 450kn fighter and yeah, you got something, even with SR3, that is a real problem for the allies. But at 380kn ... not so much. I mean it can just barely catch a B29 at 364kn, right? That low speed makes it very vulnerable to allied fighters. Again, as a player you can mitigate that. But then the allies can accentuate this defect also ... [;)]