AE Naval and OOB Issues [OUTDATED]

[armin]

fixed

[msieving1]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I did some reading on hospital ships and found that some US hospital ships of WWII have been converted from APs and AKs which are present in AE.

These ships have no withdrawal date in AE and thus stay available in the game as APs / AKs when they should be withdrawn.

So far I have identified USAHS Louis A. Milne (ex-Lewis Luckenbach), USAHS Ernestine Koranda (ex-Dorothy Luckenbach), USAHS Marigold (ex-President Fillmore), USAHS Emily H. M. Weder (ex-President Buchanan), USAHS Howard A. McCurdy (ex-President Tyler), AH-10 USS Samaritan (ex-Chaumont), USS Bountiful (ex-Henderson).

Perhaps someone has a complete list with withdrawal dates or wants to do more research on it?

http://med-dept.com/hosp_ships.php

This article has a complete list of US Army and Navy hospital ships, the dates they were designated to be converted, and the previous name of the ship, if the name was changed. There's also a photo of the Dutch Maetsuycker, which was converted to an Australian hospital ship, but no information on when that conversion was made.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Ship 5142 St. Mihel, should be probably spelled St. Mihiel, after WWI battlefield.

And Awajisan Maru have probably wrong class, as it was much larger, and is listed as being the same class as its sister ships:

Along with its sister ships Ayatosan Maru and Sakura Maru, it was carrying around 5,000 troops during the landings at Kota Bharu.

And they are defined as Yusen Cargo.

Awazisan Maru - a Yusen A class - is in the game (ship 1226 - well, at least in DBB), but starts at Saigon on Dec. 7th.

Awajisan Maru (ship 1722) - a Gozan class - is in TF 8085 (18th Div I).

Probably should be swapped.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: msieving1

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I did some reading on hospital ships and found that some US hospital ships of WWII have been converted from APs and AKs which are present in AE.

These ships have no withdrawal date in AE and thus stay available in the game as APs / AKs when they should be withdrawn.

So far I have identified USAHS Louis A. Milne (ex-Lewis Luckenbach), USAHS Ernestine Koranda (ex-Dorothy Luckenbach), USAHS Marigold (ex-President Fillmore), USAHS Emily H. M. Weder (ex-President Buchanan), USAHS Howard A. McCurdy (ex-President Tyler), AH-10 USS Samaritan (ex-Chaumont), USS Bountiful (ex-Henderson).

Perhaps someone has a complete list with withdrawal dates or wants to do more research on it?

http://med-dept.com/hosp_ships.php

This article has a complete list of US Army and Navy hospital ships, the dates they were designated to be converted, and the previous name of the ship, if the name was changed. There's also a photo of the Dutch Maetsuycker, which was converted to an Australian hospital ship, but no information on when that conversion was made.

Better late than never: Thank you! Will add withdrawal dates for US APs Republic, Chaumont, St.Mihiel, President Fillmore, President Buchanan, President Tyler and Henderson as well as xAKs Lewis Luckenbach and Dorothy Luckenbach – all converted to hospital ships.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Ship 5142 St. Mihel, should be probably spelled St. Mihiel, after WWI battlefield.

And Awajisan Maru have probably wrong class, as it was much larger, and is listed as being the same class as its sister ships:

Along with its sister ships Ayatosan Maru and Sakura Maru, it was carrying around 5,000 troops during the landings at Kota Bharu.

And they are defined as Yusen Cargo.

Awazisan Maru - a Yusen A class - is in the game (ship 1226 - well, at least in DBB), but starts at Saigon on Dec. 7th.

Awajisan Maru (ship 1722) - a Gozan class - is in TF 8085 (18th Div I).

Probably should be swapped.

Good catch!
That is probably this!


Now, can you also find how xAK Moji Maru could be spelled differently? [:)]

I did some reading on hospital ships and found that some US hospital ships of WWII have been converted from APs and AKs which are present in AE.

These ships have no withdrawal date in AE and thus stay available in the game as APs / AKs when they should be withdrawn.

So far I have identified USAHS Louis A. Milne (ex-Lewis Luckenbach), USAHS Ernestine Koranda (ex-Dorothy Luckenbach), USAHS Marigold (ex-President Fillmore), USAHS Emily H. M. Weder (ex-President Buchanan), USAHS Howard A. McCurdy (ex-President Tyler), AH-10 USS Samaritan (ex-Chaumont), USS Bountiful (ex-Henderson).

Perhaps someone has a complete list with withdrawal dates or wants to do more research on it?

There was at least one example, where Japanese transport was converted into hospital ship, and later into CVE. How do you propose to simulate that?
Also, some of hospital ships were sunk, so that takes lots of VP from equation. You could reduce their cargo holds, although I do not see then reason to operate them at all.

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I did some reading on hospital ships and found that some US hospital ships of WWII have been converted from APs and AKs which are present in AE.

You could reduce their cargo holds, although I do not see then reason to operate them at all.

If you gave them an amphibious bonus like a AGC (or make them in the editor as re-badged AGCs) it would make them relevant to the game and encourage players to use them.

I would justify this with assumption that their presence would assist fighting ashore as I can see no other game mechanism other an amphibious invasion that could by affected by the presence of a ship.

[Reg]

If you are looking for minor things to fix,

HMAS Ipswitch should be named HMAS Ipswich in the stock scenarios. (City_of_Ipswich)

(it grates every time I read that in an AAR..)

[rjopel]

Scenario 8

Casablanca 9/44 has two sets of 15xRight-mounted 20mm Oerlikon AA Gun's rather than left and right mounted sets.

[msieving1]

There was at least one example, where Japanese transport was converted into hospital ship, and later into CVE. How do you propose to simulate that?

Personally, I wouldn't bother. However, I can't find any information on this conversion.

Also, some of hospital ships were sunk, so that takes lots of VP from equation. You could reduce their cargo holds, although I do not see then reason to operate them at all.

I think the original idea was simply to withdraw the transports that were converted to hospital ships, not to operate them as hospital ships.

Two Japanese hospital ships were sunk by US forces, and one Australian hospital ship was sunk by the Japanese. The VPs involved would be negligible. (Since sinking hospital ships was illegal, they should cost the attacker points, if anything.)

I was interested to find that after the Japanese hospital ship Awa Maru was sunk by the USS Queenfish, the captain of the Queenfish was court-martialed and convicted of negligence. The US offered, through neutral Switzerland, to replace the Awa Maru with a similar ship. The Japanese in turn submitted a bill for $52 million in compensation for the loss, which was never paid.

[JeffroK]

Scen 1 has always had incorrect start dates and locations, I cant see that they have been corrected but some mods may have been updated.
I have some missing ships at the bottom, if someone can find them can they post the slot no.

EDITED AFTER LST's AUDIT [&o]

As follows:

Slot Name AE Date Location IRLDate IRLLocation

9724 Swan 411206 Brisbane 411206 Patrolling Melbourne/Burnie
9725 Warrego 411206 Melbourne 411206 Patrolling Melbourne/Burnie
9726 Yarra 411206 Aden 411225 Aden
9727 Bungaree 411206 Sydney 411206 Sydney
3211 Shropshire 430215 Aden 430904 Cape Town
3212 Australia 421215 Sydney 411205 False Bay Republic of South Africa
411217 Arrived Fremantle
411221 Arrived Sydney
3213 Canberra 411206 Sydney 411206 Sydney
3235 Perth 411206 Sydney 411206 Sydney
3236 Hobart 411206 Aden 420115 Aden
3237 Adelaide 411206 Pt Moresby 411206 Pt Moresby
3688 Stuart 411206 Melbourne 411206 Melbourne/Under Repair
3689 Voyager 411206 Sydney 411206 Sydney/Under Repair
3690 Vampire 411206 Z Force 411206 Singapore
3691 Vendetta 411206 Singapore 411206 Singapore/Immobile
Even her main armament had been taken ashore and it was not until 24/1/42 that they were recovered and plans put in place to tow her back to Australia.
3692 Quiberon 431215 Aden 430227 Cape Town/Durban
3693 Quickmatch 431215 Aden 4405?? Arrived Indian Ocean
3694 Arunta 420515 Cape Town 420517 Sydney
3695 Warramunga 421215 Cape Town 421123 Sydney
3697 Bataan 460515 Aden 450525 Sydney
3728 Napier 420103 Aden 420103 Aden
3729 Nepal 420812 Cape Town 420812 Cape Town
3730 Nestor 420103 Aden 420103 Aden
3731 Nizam 420103 Aden 420103 Aden
3732 Norman 420103 Cape Town 420103 Aden
4381 Kalgoorlie 420407 Brisbane 420407 Whyalla
4382 Tamworth 420808 Brisbane 420808 Maryborough
4383 Pirie 421010 Brisbane 421010 Whyalla
4384 Ararat 430616 Rockhampton 430616 Brisbane
4385 Armidale 420611 Hobart 420611 Sydney
4386 Ballarat 411206 Singapore 411206 Arrives Darwin 8/12/41 from Sydney
4387 Benalla 420415 Melbourne 430427 Melbourne
4388 Bowen 420815 Brisbane 421109 Brisbane
4389 Bunbury 411206 Townsville 430103 Brisbane
4390 Bundaberg 420912 Darwin 420912 Brisbane
4391 Cairns 411206 Darwin 420511 Maryborough
4392 Castlemaine 420415 Melbourne 420617 Melbourne
4393 Cessnock 420215 Sydney 420126 Sydney
4394 Colac 420116 Derby?? 420106 Sydney
4395 Cootamundra 420615 Sydney 430430 Sydney
4396 Cowra 420615 --------- 431008 Sydney
4397 Deloraine 411206 Darwin 411206 Sydney
4398 Dubbo 420731 Townsville 420731 Sydney
4399 Echuca 420415 --------- 420415 Melbourne
4400 Fremantle 430324 Sydney 430324 Brisbane
4401 Geelong 420515 Melbourne 420116 Melbourne
4402 Gladstone 420815 Melbourne 430322 Maryborough
4403 Glenelg 421116 Burnie 421116 Sydney
4404 Gympie 421104 Derby?? 421104 Brisbane
4405 Horsham 420515 ---------- 421118 Melbourne
4406 Inverell 420917 Rockhampton 420917 Sydney
4408 Ipswich 411206 Darwin 420613 Brisbane
4408 Junee 420615 ---------- 440411 Sydney
4409 Kapunda 420715 Sydney 421021 Sydney
4410 Katoomba 420715 Sydney 411217 Sydney
4411 Kiama 440116 Sydney 440126 Brisbane
4412 Latrobe 411206 Perth 421106 Sydney
4413 Launceston 420115 Brisbane 420409 Brisbane
4414 Lismore 420115 Trincomalee 411206 Aden
4415 Lithgow 411206 Burnie 411206 Burnie
4416 Mildura 411206 Townsville 411206 Townsville
4417 Parkes 440525 Melbourne 440525 Brisbane
4418 Rockhampton 420915 Melbourne 420121 Maryborough
4419 Shepparton 420615 Melbourne 430201 Melbourne
4420 Stawell 420715 Melbourne 430807 Melbourne
4421 Strahan 421015 Newcastle 440314 Newcastle
4422 Toowoomba 411206 Singapore 411206 Singapore
4423 Townsville 411219 Cairns 411219 Brisbane
4424 Wagga 411218 Sydney 411218 Sydney
4425 Wallaroo 420815 Sydney 420715 Wallaroo (Choose Adelaide or Whyalla)
4426 Warrnambool 411206 Derby??? 411206 Burnie
4427 Whyalla 411206 Sydney 420108 Whyalla
4428 Wollongong 411206 Sydney 411206 Sydney
10432 Kanimbla 411206 Singapore 411206 Singapore
10431 Manoora 411206 Singapore 411206 Singapore
10433 Westralia 411206 Sydney 411206 Sydney
11128 Barcoo 440315 ---------- 440117 Sydney
11129 Barwon 460201 ---------- 451210 Sydney
11130 Burdekin 440915 ---------- 440627 Brisbane
11131 Diamantina 450615 ---------- 450427 Maryborough
11132 Gascoyne 4401?? ---------- 431118 Sydney
11133 Hawkesbury 440915 ---------- 440705 Sydney
11134 Lachlan 450315 ---------- 450214 Sydney
11135 Macquarie 460115 ---------- 451207 Sydney
11136 Murchison 460115 ---------- 451217 Brisbane
11137 Condamine 460215 ---------- 460222 Sydney
11138 Culgoa 460215 ---------- 470401 Melbourne

MISSING SHIPS
Bathurst 411216 Aden
Bendigo 411206 Singapore
Broome 420729 Brisbane
Burnie 411206 Singapore
Gawler 420814 Whyalla
Geraldton 420406 Sydney
Goulburn 411206 Singapore
Maryborough 411206 Singapore

http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/ships-boat ... -histories

[LargeSlowTarget]

Your input is highly appreciated - until today I did not even realize that RAN dates and locations of stock and even DBB were incorrect.

However, I found a few glitches though most of the data looks ok.

Mmh, until now I have had blind faith in the data you have provided... [;)]

ORIGINAL: JeffK
3236 Hobart 411206 Aden 411206 Hobart

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... htm#convoy has CL Hobart in the Med on 411206:


1941 December

7th - Escorted Supply Ship HMS BRECONSHIRE from Malta to Alexandria.

9th - Under air attack at Tobruk with HM Sloops FLAMINGO and YARRA (RAN).

10th - Recalled to rejoin RAN after Japan entered war and took passage to Colombo.

18th - Diverted to carry out patrol in Maldives area following reports of unrest.

24th - Joined escort for military convoy BM9A with HM Cruisers DURBAN and DRAGON for passage to Singapore from Bombay.


1 9 4 2 January

Transferred to ABDA Command for convoy defence.

3rd - Arrived at Singapore with convoy BM9A

ORIGINAL: JeffK
3729 Nepal 420812 Cape Town 420103 Aden

Not possible:

1 9 4 2

May

Contractors trials

11th - Commissioned for service by Royal Australian Navy in 7th Destroyer Flotilla.

29th - Build completion and commenced Acceptance Trials

June

On completion of trials and storing took passage to Scapa Flow to work-up with ships of Home Fleet.

Passage to Clyde for rectification of defects prior to operational service.

July

Under repair in commercial shipyard. Nominated as part of escort for military convoy during passage to Indian Ocean.

17th - Joined Convoy WS21P in Clyde with HM Cruiser ORION and Dutch destroyer TJERK HIDDES (Ex HMS NONPAREIL) as Ocean Escort during passage to Freetown. (Note: Both destroyers were taking passage to join 7th Destroyer Flotilla which was also to include sister ships HMAS NIZAM, NAPIER and NORMAN.)

27th - Arrived at Freetown with WS21P.

August

2nd - Sailed with same ships as Ocean Escort for WS21P on departure from Freetown.

4th - Continued as Ocean escort after mercantiles from US Convoy AS4 joined. (Note: Convoy AS4 was escorted by US Navy warships and was made up of ships carrying supplies to Alexandria via Cape of Good Hope.)

12th - Arrived at Cape Town and detached from WS21P.

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... htm#convoy

ORIGINAL: JeffK
4414 Lismore 420115 Trincomalee 421216 Aden

I think she should start at Aden on 411206 or at Colombo end of Dec 41.

She also must get a withdrawal date and return delay [ditto Ipswich and the missing ships Gawler and Maryborough].

"They [Lismore and Bathurst - LST] arrived at Colombo on 3 June. Shortly afterwards the ships sailed to take up duty with the Red Sea Force. Thereafter, until mid December 1941, Lismore was employed on East African coastal patrol duty which included, from August to December 1941, patrols in the Gulf of Tadjoura as a unit of the forces employed in maintaining a blockade of French Somaliland.
On 16 December 1941 Lismore detached from the Red Sea Force and proceeded for Colombo to join the Eastern Fleet for Indian Ocean escort duty. From January 1942 to April 1943 Lismore served as an escort vessel for Indian Ocean convoys including duty in the Persian Gulf area in the second half of 1942.
On 3 May 1943 she arrived at Aden en route for the Mediterranean where with her sister ships HMA Ships Gawler, Ipswich and Maryborough, she formed the 21st Minesweeping Flotilla. Her service in the Mediterranean, however, was mainly confined to escort duty. She once, in August 1943, proceeded into the Atlantic to form part of the escort of an Alexandria bound convoy. Despite numerous air attacks in the Mediterranean en route to the Atlantic the ship escaped damage.
On 25 September 1943 Lismore departed Suez for Kilindini to rejoin the Eastern Fleet for further Indian Ocean escort duty. For the following fifteen months she was almost constantly at sea protecting convoys moving between India and Africa.
On 3 December 1944 Lismore arrived at Fremantle, her first call at an Australian port since leaving Darwin for Singapore on 20 March 1941. Her absence from Australia was longer than that of any other Royal Australian Navy ship of World War II."

http://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-lismore

ORIGINAL: JeffK
4418 Rockhampton 420915 Melbourne 420121 Melbourne

"Rockhampton commissioned at Maryborough on 21 January 1942 under the command of Lieutenant Robert T. Salmon )."

http://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-rockhampton

Btw, the commanding officers of most if not all corvettes are wrong in the game - AE has "Russ, V.J." as CO of Rockhampton for example. But I for my part will not go that far in my quest for historical accuracy...


Additional missing ship: Maryborough 411206 Singapore

[JeffroK]

Thanks

Some of this is blamed on trabferring things from paper to excel to forum.

I think I got Nepal wrong in a cut and paste, checking my excel sheet I had Nestor down twice and have Hobart blank, Rockhampton is due to old age, my excel sheet has it correct.

NEXT TIME i'll check what i type[:D]

[LargeSlowTarget]

Well, my history studies have taught me that faith is good but control is better [;)]

You really got me started on the RAN: I have learned (from the RAN website which is quite informative) that the RAN took over a couple of ex-Chinese coastal craft which played important "supporting roles" in the war - see http://www.navy.gov.au/media-room/publi ... march-2011

Thee of the four ships mentioned in the article are in DBB - but Ping Wo as wrong class (Pacific M Cargo). But this is probably something for the Modding subforum.

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Well, my history studies have taught me that faith is good but control is better [;)]

You really got me started on the RAN: I have learned (from the RAN website which is quite informative) that the RAN took over a couple of ex-Chinese coastal craft which played important "supporting roles" in the war - see http://www.navy.gov.au/media-room/publi ... march-2011

Thee of the four ships mentioned in the article are in DBB - but Ping Wo as wrong class (Pacific M Cargo). But this is probably something for the Modding subforum.

Well other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play. In other words, except for those few items, is Jeff's data input good to go?

[JeffroK]

I've updated the table, more than welcome for any corrections which can be found.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Yes, apart from the few glitches I mentioned Jeff's data looks good. Kudos to him, since stock/DBB has quite a few errors in the delay dates / start locations of the RAN ships, esp. of the Bathurst class "corvettes". In some cases the delay date is the historical commissioning date of the ship in question, but in many cases the delay date is a month or more after the commission date (maybe a trial / training period before declared operational?) and in quite a few cases the delay and starting location are plain wrong. JeffK uses the commissioning date as delay date consistently and that is ok IMO.

While taking closer looks at the RAN I have found quite a few "small ships" (AMc, HDML classes etc.) are missing even in DBB (Don, how comes HMAS Lolita is not in DaBabes? [:'(]) But that is for the Mod subforum as well.

[JeffroK]

IMHO, as I mentioned in the Land OOB, I think some areas were thought of as outside the main batlle zones.

But as we now see, invasions of Australia & India are common.

I would imagine the West Coast USA should have a lot more of these seemingly minor units.

There is a limit to available slots, but I reckon there is space for a lot more units.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
Don, how comes HMAS Lolita is not in DaBabes?

Because http://www.amazon.com/Australian-New-Ze ... 0868240958 does not list her! Where did you find her?

P.S. Thanks to Jeff for all the good data. Some obvious errors in the corvettes. But many of the arrival date and even some arrival location "errors" were intentional. A working-up period was indeed estimated for new construction. Also those that served in the Pacific, went (temporarily) to the Med, and returned were just put in one time (the return) instead of troubling the player with witherdraw-return for smaller ships. Lastly, completion dates for ships completed after the war were accelerated. Everything slowed down once the war ended but would have been much faster had it continued.

P.P.S. Happy to hear any more corrections.

[Symon]

What Don said, but I will own up to not paying the most particular attention to some things. A lotta stuff is just as Don says, other stuff could use a skoosh of Brylcreem. Have no idea, after all these years, why we did this to that, and that to this. For my Fault, for my Fault, for my most Grevious Fault. I must be shot at dawn.

Ciao, JWE

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
Don, how comes HMAS Lolita is not in DaBabes?

Because http://www.amazon.com/Australian-New-Ze ... 0868240958 does not list her! Where did you find her?

P.S. Thanks to Jeff for all the good data. Some obvious errors in the corvettes. But many of the arrival date and even some arrival location "errors" were intentional. A working-up period was indeed estimated for new construction. Also those that served in the Pacific, went (temporarily) to the Med, and returned were just put in one time (the return) instead of troubling the player with witherdraw-return for smaller ships. Lastly, completion dates for ships completed after the war were accelerated. Everything slowed down once the war ended but would have been much faster had it continued.

P.P.S. Happy to hear any more corrections.

Don, I can totally understand your comment but it is far from the facts.

We have ships arriving on their Commisioning date, but at the wrong location.
We have ships arriving up to a year in advance of their Commisioning date.
We have at least 6 which dont show at all.

Especially in DBB where a myriad of smaller ships were put into the database, this is not up to the standard of the mod.

Why cant people just say "we got it wrong, thanks for the update" just as DBB is an update on Vanilla and AE is an update on WITP.