Opportunity Fire

USMCGrunt · Post by **USMCGrunt** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:16 pm

I'm not sure how everyone else would feel about this, but it's something that I've found very frustrating. I'd like to see a little more choice on the gamer's part when determining which units are allowed opportunity fire. There have been many times that the enemy has been advancing towards me and my units are op firing that the game selects the worst possible unit to op fire with. I'll have tanks coming towards me and it selects units to fire that have already used up cannon shots and only have MGs left are selected while I have unsuppressed tanks right next to them that have not fired a round and have full line of sight to the target. I've also experienced this with a light caliber AA unit being selected to fire on armor when a nearby tank would have been more effective. Anyone else have thoughts on the matter?

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USMCGrunt

-When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:56 pm

I agree that this is furstrating.

I've noticed that letting the computer handle the OF routing (set delay to 0) works well for general situations. It seems that the OF AI routine can do a better job than I can given the unusual firing units as you have noted. (ambush and other special situations are still better handled by a human though).

I wonder if the AI routine that selects the OF firing units is different for computer and human OF.

Additionally, the human player gets only one or two OF shots. I've often seen the AIP get THREE OF shots. It seems that if I fire on an AIP unit, it fires back then two more units get OF. Have others seen this? Matrix, is this a bug?

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Dagobert · Post by **Dagobert** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 1:09 am

I think defensive stance allows you more opportunity fire. Or so I've noticed.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 2:07 am

Dagobert: Defensive stances NEVER allow you more than two opfires, in any case. Whether it would allow you two, where you otherwise might have had only one, I couldn't guess.

Major_Johnson · Post by **Major_Johnson** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 2:30 am

Personally, I would like to be able to chose which weapon, if there is more than one available, to fire! Like in the case of tanks, either just the main gun or just the machine guns! I hate wasting good ammo!

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MJ
We serve others best when at the same time we serve ourselves.

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 4:21 am

Originally posted by Larry Holt:
I agree that this is furstrating.

I've noticed that letting the computer handle the OF routing (set delay to 0) works well for general situations. It seems that the OF AI routine can do a better job than I can given the unusual firing units as you have noted. (ambush and other special situations are still better handled by a human though).

I wonder if the AI routine that selects the OF firing units is different for computer and human OF.

Additionally, the human player gets only one or two OF shots. I've often seen the AIP get THREE OF shots. It seems that if I fire on an AIP unit, it fires back then two more units get OF. Have others seen this? Matrix, is this a bug?

This is all fine and good, I liked to use the AI to op fire as well until....You start playing guys who run every piece of junk they have at you to use up all your shots, then move in their tanks when you have no shots remaining....this was known as "Junk Tactics" back in sp3online days...GRRRRRR hated it!! LOL
Alby

Larry Wagner · Post by **Larry Wagner** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 5:38 am

USMCGRUNT and Others,
If you do not want to waste shots during your OF fire do the following:

[Hit escape key, this skips to the next OP target available or next unit to OF.]

(I set the delay to 7 seconds, just about enough time to decide if I want to shoot or not.)

I have found that the AI likes to move its junk units such as infantry, armour cars, ect before it moves its armour. Also it gives the most distant unit to target first choice, then works its way to the closest.

I priortize my targets, infantry against infantry, armour against armour. After I have shot my main tank amo OF at Armour targets, I then use the MG's against infantry.

I use that escape key alot so not to waste main gun ammo and until I have optimum range of 1000 meters, 20 hexes for tanks and ATG's and infantry weapons at range of 10 hexes, 500 meters. I also use the Junk tactic against the AI.

So Guys use the escape key!

Larry Wagner
USMC Sgt.
1972-1985
Air Wing
Urrah!

lnp4668 · Post by **lnp4668** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 5:41 am

I notice that letting the AI handles opportunity fire tends to work most of the time. They will not fire at a target if they can't hurt it. Tanks also will not fire at infantry at greater than 3 hexes.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 6:05 pm

If you do not want to waste shots during your OF fire do the following:
[Hit escape key, this skips to the next OP target available or next unit to OF.]

Larry Wagner -

Just so we don't mislead anyone; you only get 2 op fire choices per event. If you hit the escape key on the first, you don't get 2 more choices, you just get the 2nd (and last) choice. If you hit escape on that one too, then you give up your op fire chance.

A few people have said that MG fire against a tank is useless. That isn't true! Although a hit from an AP round would be best, a hit from a MG will surpress the tank and probable cause it's next shot at you to miss, or maybe it won't even shoot again. Compare that to the effect of the 1st AP shot from your other tank - it probably will miss and cause no suppression at all.

Paul V. has stated several times that the 2 shot limit for us versus the several shot OP limit for the AI is intentional to give the poor old AI a handicap advantage.

Tommy

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 6:37 pm

Dagobert · Post by **Dagobert** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 10:58 pm

Originally posted by Charles22:
Dagobert: Defensive stances NEVER allow you more than two opfires, in any case. Whether it would allow you two, where you otherwise might have had only one, I couldn't guess.

Ah I recieved three main gun opfires, from farther than two hexes, twice in my last utr scenario; Sherman versus Tiger. As it involved my best crew, experience may be the key factor. The stance however was advancing. Would I have gotten less with defending?
Nailed the bugger too.

ursus · Post by **ursus** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:25 pm

USMCGrunt,

I have had the same frustration of the AI choosing a MG on a tank to OP at a enemy tank than one of my tanks next to it that has shots left with it's main gun(cannon).I don't know if this is a bug or not? It would be nice to choose what weapon for a unit to use also.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Tue Jan 23, 2001 11:38 pm

Larry Wagner: Are you saying that the opfire will keep going through the unit possibilities, if you neither reject or fire, and instead hit the Esc? Actually I found those British tanks that have only AP ammo, have quite an advantage, because in opfire, they can fire their main guns against tanks, and also fire "only" the MG against infantry, since the main gun has no HE rounds. So a British tanks can fire interchangably against tank and infantry, whereas the only hope for the German engaging both infantry and tank, is to fire off all the main gun rounds against the tanks, and then when that's exhausted they can use the MGs on the infantry.

Supervisor · Post by **Supervisor** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:22 am

I think weapon choice would be a great addition to op fire, would anyone prefer to see a hit % displayed as opposed to just a hex range????

Larry Wagner · Post by **Larry Wagner** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:28 am

Charles22,

(whereas the only hope for the German engaging both infantry and tank, is to fire off all the main gun rounds against the tanks, and then when that's exhausted they can use the MGs on the infantry.)

What ya said has been my experience so far. Use that main gun for armour or vehicle targets and the mg's to take care of infantry.

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Larry Wagner
USMC, SGT.
1972-1985

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:19 am

USMCGrunt I think you will find that the AI moves it's units by their roster position ( the Position they are bought in ) and that it moves the units in short incriments so ...
If you right click to say no to your early opfire oportunities and let the AI cycle thru until it gets to the tanks you can then use you tanks /AT guns whatever to engage them ..The AI will continue to cycle thru and come back to the infantry and then you can use the MG's once the Main guns have used up their shots ..also give some serious thought to seting the max engagement ranges on you units before you hit the end turn key so you limit the eligible unit for the AI to chose for opfire.. yeah it can be time consuming ..but it works
One the first turn pay attention to who is moving first look for the pattern ..you will not be able of course to see every unit the enemy has so it may seem that the AI doesn't start with the same guy everytime but look for the patern it is there work it use it

USMCGrunt · Post by **USMCGrunt** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 3:01 pm

I think I've been misunderstood on this one. The problem I see is that I have 3 unsuppressed tanks with LOS to the enemy tank. 2 have exhausted their cannon shots and only have MGs, and one still has the cannon and the MGs. The enemy tank approaches, and the AI selects the 2 tanks with MGs to op fire on it instead of the tank with cannon shots left. Hope that clarifies a bit.

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USMCGrunt

-When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

Arralen · Post by **Arralen** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 3:15 pm

Originally posted by USMCGrunt:
.... and the AI selects the 2 tanks with MGs to op fire...

These tanks weren't "selected" from a pool of available units - there's a random roll included to see if a unit OPfires or not .. and one of the last updates the opfire is limited to two units .. so the game "rolls" for the firs unit with LOS, the 2nd etc. until 2 units made it (wether you told them o fire or not).

Check if those two tanks have higher exp./armor rat. than the third ?!

Arralen

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 4:30 pm

The AI selects two units to opfire with, but the question is (I think).. which unit does it start the check at. I believe something is wrong here, since it doesn't pick the most appropriate unit for the situation (and it happens quite a lot too!).

For example, an enemy tank moves into the hex next to one of my infantry squads, dug- in with 0 supression and not spotted before. Before the change, this unit would have close-assaulted the tank with a good chance to kill it. Now, i instead get the choice of shooting at it from range two-three with other infantry units (even mg's sometimes) which can't hurt the tank at all.

Since i only get two chances the "would-be" assaulter won't get the chance to fire, and will instead be annihilated by the tank the next round. Things like this happens all the time (of course, sometimes the unit will assault too.. but it seems very random).

If the opfire should be limited to two shots only (as it probably has to due to speed of online play etc), some more checks should be made where the actual chance a unit has to hurt the enemy should be considered as well.. perhaps there is but it doesn't work very well, i don't know

.

The very best would be an option on the preferences page where you could pick yourself how many opfire opportunities you want, or even go back to the old unlimited opfire (imo more important than varying opfire delays).

As it is now, I find myself limiting the number of units with LOS to the enemy.. carefully hide away all scouts, light tanks and less useful weapons to give my better units opfiring opportunities. Infantry ambushes set up in such a way so only the ambushing infantry squad and no other squad will see the enemy etc. In my opinion, a little out of line

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 3:07 pm

This should have another date hopefully and bring the thread back up