AI for MWiF - China

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: composer99

What does the effect of Hitler's War option on other major powers have to do with its effect on China? Based on the US thread the impression I had was that China's production multiple was the topic at hand.

You moved the thread here. I thought you wanted to talk about it here.

It seamed odd to me but I went along with it.

[composer99]

Yes, because the impression I had was that you wanted to discuss China specifically.

If there are any clarifications required in how the other major powers calculate their production multiples when playing with either RAW or Hitler's War they can be placed in either their individual AI threads or the general rules questions/clarifications thread.

[Extraneous]

Are Wenchow, Foochow, Amoy, and Swatow considered cities or just minor ports?

[composer99]

Unless their status has changed since the last screenshot Steve posted, they are as shown on the map:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are teh [sic] start lines in southern China for the same time period. This also shows the addition of the "river road" from Nanking to Nanchang, Wuhan, and Ichang. Data by Patrice, included in version 10.00.

[Extraneous]

So as the USA player you're thinking about sending lend lease to China.

First you must have selected USA entry options 9 Resources to China and 17 Lend lease to China.

9. Resources to China (Ja)
Allied major powers can’t give resources to China until you choose this entry option. In future turns, each major power can give up to 5 resources a turn (no limit once that major power is at war with Japan). The US can use its convoy points to transport resources to China from the USA.

Choosing this entry option opens the Burma Road. It then counts as a railway for moving resources and build points (only) into China (not out). The scenario information (see 24 Re-open Burma Road) will tell you whether the Burma Road starts the game open or closed.

17. Lend lease to China (Ja) (There is a 50% chance that a USA (Ja) entry pool chit will be moved to the USA (Ja) tension pool)
Each Allied major power can give up to 5 build points a turn to China (see 13.6.4 Lend lease). The US can use its convoy points to transport build points to China from the USA. This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen USA entry option 9 Resources to China.

Now how do you get the BP to China? China controls no major ports and the USSR has no rail connection to China. So it must go through French Indo-China or Burma.

First the BP needs to be transported by sea to a major port and then transported by rail to a Chinese city.


The closest major port is Hanoi, French Indo-China (before Vichy is established or France is conquered).

The shortest rout to Hanoi, French Indo-China requires 5x CP and is subject to Search & Seizure:
From the major port of San Diego, California > 1x CP West Coast > Mendocino > 1x CP Central Pacific Ocean > 1x CP The Marianas > 1x CP The Bismarck Sea > 1x CP South China Sea > the major port of Hanoi, French Indo-China > by rail to a Chinese city


The next closest major port is Rangoon, Burma (CW).

The shortest rout to Rangoon, Burma requires 6x CP and is subject to Search & Seizure:
From the major port of San Diego, California > 1x CP West Coast > Mendocino > 1x CP Central Pacific Ocean > 1x CP The Marianas > 1x CP The Bismarck Sea > 1x CP South China Sea > 1x CP Bay of Bengal > the major port of Rangoon, Burma > by rail to a Chinese city

To make a long story short I don't see a reason to attempt to ship BP to China.

[composer99]

The US can lend a resource from the Philippines. If build points is what the Allies want to lend, let the Commonwealth lend them from India (1 sea area) or Australia (3 sea area) and if the CW wants to keep up its production the US can lend the CW build points to compensate.

Incidentally, the convoy route from the US to China is long:
- West Coast
- Mendocino
- Hawai'ian Islands (or Christmas Islands)
- Central Pacific (or The Marshalls)
- Japanese Coast (or The Marianas)
- China Sea (or Bismarck Sea)
- South China Sea

for 7 sea areas to ship to Indochina, or 8 sea areas if you want to extend the line further to Bay of Bengal to ship via Burma.

[paulderynck]

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: composer99

The US can lend a resource from the Philippines. If build points is what the Allies want to lend, let the Commonwealth lend them from India (1 sea area) or Australia (3 sea area) and if the CW wants to keep up its production the US can lend the CW build points to compensate.

Incidentally, the convoy route from the US to China is long:
- West Coast
- Mendocino
- Hawai'ian Islands (or Christmas Islands)
- Central Pacific (or The Marshalls)
- Japanese Coast (or The Marianas)
- China Sea (or Bismarck Sea)
- South China Sea

For 7 sea areas to ship to Indochina, or 8 sea areas if you want to extend the line further to Bay of Bengal to ship via Burma.

Thanks for the correction, you are right about the sea zones.


The French are in a better position to lend resources from Hanoi, French Indo-China than the USA is from the Philippines.

Question: Would Vichy France be required to honor a French trade agreement to China if it were made before Vichy was established?


The Philippine resource is better used in the Japan/USA trade agreement. That way the USA saves CP and Oil.

The CW would have to go through the Bay of Bengal any way using CP and BP they probably can't afford to use.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.

You will note the only access to rail lines (and the Burma road) to China go through the major ports of Hanoi, French Indo-China and Rangoon, Burma.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Question: Would Vichy France be required to honor a French trade agreement to China if it were made before Vichy was established?

RAW:
5. Lending Stage
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or
lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the
same side this turn.

The answer is therefore "no", since Vichy is on the Axis side and China is on the allied side.

RAW: (5)
You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active
major power and you can only give them to another active major
power.

RAW: (17.1)
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power
that installed the Vichy government.

Since Vichy France is neutral, he can't give resources to China.

RAW:
Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4).

All this means that a trade agreement between China and Vichy doesn't exist, the moment Vichy France is installed. There is, however, a trade agreement with the Free French and they should honor it (or cancel it if they want to). They can, because installment of Vichy comes after the production phase and before the lending resource stage of the next turn.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.

You will note the only access to rail lines (and the Burma road) to China go through the major ports of Hanoi, French Indo-China and Rangoon, Burma.

And as you noted about lending the resource from India, it would go through the Bay of Bengal and land at...?

Oh yeah - Rangoon. And you will note Rangoon is a minor port... eventually.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.

You will note the only access to rail lines (and the Burma road) to China go through the major ports of Hanoi, French Indo-China and Rangoon, Burma.

And as you noted about lending the resource from India, it would go through the Bay of Bengal and land at...?

Oh yeah - Rangoon. And you will note Rangoon is a minor port... eventually.

> 1x CP Bay of Bengal > the minor port of Rangoon, Burma > by rail to a Chinese city


Remember I cut and paste.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Question: Would Vichy France be required to honor a French trade agreement to China if it were made before Vichy was established?

RAW:
5. Lending Stage
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn.

The answer is therefore "no", since Vichy is on the Axis side and China is on the allied side.

RAW: (5)
You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power.

RAW: (17.1)
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

Since Vichy France is neutral, he can't give resources to China.

RAW:
Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4).

All this means that a trade agreement between China and Vichy doesn't exist, the moment Vichy France is installed. There is, however, a trade agreement with the Free French and they should honor it (or cancel it if they want to). They can, because installment of Vichy comes after the production phase and before the lending resource stage of the next turn.

5. Lending Stage

In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.

We are not announcing a new trade agreement we are working with an existing trade agreement.

You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power (exceptions: Trade agreements ~ see 5.1, US entry options ~ see 13.3.2 US entry options and lending to Vichy France ~ see 17.4 Running Vichy France). Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4 Running Vichy France).

Vichy France is an exception it must be hostile to lend lease resources and build points.



There are 2 ways to make Vichy hostile:
1) Invade metropolitan Vichy France (which would not meaningful in this situation).
2) 17.3 Units
French units

The Axis major power installing the Vichy Government now moves every French controlled unit at sea (even those face-down) to the nearest Vichy or Free French hex (port for naval units and their cargoes) within range in which they may stack. If naval units cannot return to a port within range, they are destroyed.

Next, the same player moves every French controlled land or aircraft unit in a hex controlled by an Axis major power to the nearest hex controlled by Vichy France or Free-France. Rebase every French controlled naval unit in such a hex to the nearest port within double their range controlled by Vichy France or Free France. They are destroyed if this is not possible.

The same player moves any French controlled units in hexes controlled by an Allied major power. French controlled naval units rebase at double their range, and French controlled land and air units are moved to the nearest Vichy France or Free-French hex. Alternatively, An Allied major power can destroy every French controlled unit in its territory. If it does so, Vichy France is hostile to that major power (see 17.5 Combat with Vichy).

So when Vichy is being established it could be hostile.

But since the Axis major power that installed Vichy controls Vichy they could nullify the trade agreement.

So if Free France controls French Indo-China is the trade agreement void?

[Centuur]

There is a difference between trade agreements and the giving of resources or lend-leasing of build points according to RAW:

RAW:
5.1 Trade agreements
Trade agreements are agreements automatically in place between
countries at the start of each game. They continue until either country
involved in the trade agreement is completely conquered or as
specified below.

After this, all trade agreements are specified.
A trade agreement at start of the game doesn't exist between France and China. Therefore, there is no trade agreement.

This means that any other lending of build points or resources is done in the lending stage. On that point, RAW is pretty clear:

RAW: 5.0
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.

So every turn, whenever you've agreed on giving those resources or build point for the long run, the owner of those points can cancel it. The other party involved can only hope that he or she will get those resources...

So whether or not Vichy is hostile, the Euroaxis isn't allowed to send resources to China, since they are not on the same side, because at every lending stage, this should be checked. Even if this was allowed (and it isn't), than the Euroaxis could simply stop sending the resource, since they own it and every turn the owner of a resource decides whether or not to send it to another Major Power.
And it is up to the Free French player, to provide the resource or not, since there is no trade agreement at start of the game...

[composer99]

Trade agreements among major powers on the same side do not exist in WiF. Instead major powers on the same side announce, during the Lending phase, whether they are lending any resources, oil, or build points to eligible recipients and, if so, in what quantity.

First paragraph of §5:

In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn. [Emphasis mine.]

Trade agreements can exist between major powers on opposing sides, such as the pre-set 1939 trade agreements between the USSR and Germany or the US and Japan. In WiF:FE, major powers could also agree to a trade agreement as part of a peace treaty.

See first paragraph of §13.7.3:

Two major powers at war can agree to come to peace on any terms mutually acceptable (except for transferring units).

"Any terms acceptable" allows such things as trade agreements. However, my understanding is that MWiF does not provide functionality for major powers mutually coming to peace except for, if the optional rule is selected, the USSR & Japan.

At any rate, a major power can't lend to a major power on the other side.

So, bottom line: Vichy France can never lend resources to China.

If France had announced it would lend a resource to China during the Lending Phase (RAW §5) of, say, the May/June 1940 turn, and committed the resource in Indochina to meet this commitment during the Production Step (RAW §13.6), all would be well for that turn. If, however during the turn the Germans capture Paris, they may establish Vichy France during the Peace step (§13.7). So from that point forward, in the event Indochina became a Vichy-controlled country, that resource would no longer be available to be lent to China.

[Extraneous]

Then this is what occurs.

In this case I am assuming Vichy, France controls French Indo-china.

Each turn the USA wants to give resources or Lend lease BP to China (a major power cannot give or receive resources and BP to the same major power in the same turn).

During The Lending Resource Stage
The USA declares if they are giving resources or Lend leasing BP to China (but not how many).

During One of the Impulses
If the Japanese want to perform 13.3.3 US entry action ~ 34 Japan executes a search and seizure:
1) They must at some time during one of the Impulses sail a SCS, CV, or SUB into the Bay of Bengal sea zone. For each search and seizure they wish to attempt.
2) These ships and/or submarines must stay at sea until the next turn.

During The End of Turn Stage
Production step
The Japanese can now execute its search and seizures.
Any resources or BP not seized will arrive in Rangoon, Burma to be moved by rail (or the Burma Road) to a factory for resources or a city for BP in China.

The next turn
The ships and/or submarines that stayed at sea must return to port.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Then this is what occurs.

In this case I am assuming Vichy, France controls French Indo-china.

Each turn the USA wants to give resources or Lend lease BP to China (a major power cannot give or receive resources and BP to the same major power in the same turn).

To clarify: a major power can give resources to and receive BP from the same major power, or vice versa. And a major power can give both resources (including oil) and BP to the same major power.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

During The Lending Resource Stage
The USA declares if they are giving resources or Lend leasing BP to China (but not how many).

No, all lending major powers must each specify exactly how many resources (if any), and separately how many oil (if any) and how many BPs (if any), they are lending and to whom.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
During One of the Impulses
If the Japanese want to perform 13.3.3 US entry action ~ 34 Japan executes a search and seizure:
1) They must at some time during one of the Impulses sail a SCS, CV, or SUB into the Bay of Bengal sea zone. For each search and seizure they wish to attempt.
2) These ships and/or submarines must stay at sea until the next turn.
During The End of Turn Stage
Production step
The Japanese can now execute its search and seizures.
Any resources or BP not seized will arrive in Rangoon, Burma to be moved by rail (or the Burma Road) to a factory for resources or a city for BP in China.

To clarify: The Japanese don't get them for themselves, they only prevent them going to China.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
The next turn
The ships and/or submarines that stayed at sea must return to port.

Only if they are in the zero box at the end of the turn. Nothing stops them from staying out at sea if they aren't.

[Extraneous]

To clarify: a major power can give resources to and receive BP from the same major power, or vice versa. And a major power can give both resources (including oil) and BP to the same major power.

I will not contest this even though the rules are ambiguous.

5. Lending Stage
1) In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.


2) You cannot give resources to a major power in the same turn as it is giving resources to you. However, you can give resources to a major power in the same turn as another major power gives resources to you. The same restrictions apply to lend leasing build points. You may however give build points to a major power in the same turn you receive resources from that major power or vice versa.

When you have can and cannot spelled out for you in #2 It makes you wonder if in #1 that "another major power" should have been "other major powers".

You cannot:
Give resources to a major power in the same turn as it is giving resources to you.
Lend lease build points to major powers in the same turn as those major powers lend lease build points to you.

You can:
Give resources to a major power in the same turn as another major power gives resources to you.
Lend lease build points to a major power in the same turn as another major power lend leases build points to you.
Lend lease build points to a major power in the same turn you receive resources from that major power or vice versa.

No, all lending major powers must each specify exactly how many resources (if any), and separately how many oil (if any) and how many BPs (if any), they are lending and to whom.

I will not contest this even though according to the rules I could announce: "I am lend leasing a build Point and giving resources to China one will be oil". And then lend lease one BP along with giving 1 resource and 1 oil to China.

[paulderynck]

There are penalties when anything you announce as a lend does not get to its destination. The penalty is you lose what you lent anyway. If the exact quantity of what is to be lent is not announced, then how can that penalty be assessed?

[Extraneous]

Count the CP's and tankers in the convoy line.

If there are enough to ships to give more than 1 oil/resource to China then allocate enough ships to cover the situation with your Search & seizure.

How do you know what resources are lost in a submarine attack and from which destination if you play with food in flames?



While we are at it are you only allowed to give resources and lend lease BP to ONE major power a turn?

In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.

[composer99]

While we are at it are you only allowed to give resources and lend lease BP to ONE major power a turn?

The colloquial style of RAW rears its ugly head again.

Extraneous: Do you think that is a reasonable interpretation of that rule, based on your playing experience and/or reading threads on this forum or discussions & after action reports on the wifdiscussion list (or other sites such as BoardGameGeek or Consimworld)?